We have an amazing guest on the show today, Roberto Barata and I, uh, we, I practiced his name and I’m unable to pronounce it properly. Jason can do it better. Jason, you wanna give it a, a stab 

barata. 

Okay. Way, way better. Yeah. I see Roberto nodding right now. It’s much better than me. So Roberto is an ethologist with a PhD in, I believe, human animal studies.

And I’m sure most of you have heard of ’em, but one thing I’d really like to flag is that in the dog training world, there’s very few scientists that don’t just rely on studies and care about what works in the real world. And Roberto is one of those rare scientists, and I don’t wanna put any words in his mouth, so I’m gonna stop there.

But Roberto is, uh, is an awesome dude. I love following his, his stuff on social media. We’ve been really, really waiting for this episode to get him on the show, and here he is. So, Roberto, welcome. 

Thank you, Matt. Thank you Jason for, bring me here. Um, yeah, you say that I’m scientist, but I personally, I, I like to bend my roots, which is a dog training.

Um, I, I started in this area by accident in my 16th. Uh, where I, I needed to earn some money and I started walk walking dogs. And from there I just, uh, start to, to progress, uh, until I entered in the military, uh, in the canine unit. And, uh, I passed seven years of my life there. Uh, after that, um, I went to my civilian life where, when all the nightmares started because during that seven years I’ve been, uh, basically learning, uh, practicing a lot and I was a bit unaware of, of the real world, uh, with dog honors, with, uh, even with the trainers, uh, discussions.

Of course, on that time, social media was not so, um, available as it’s today. Let’s put on, on this way. Um. And from there, I, I start, I always continue to, to learn more, to apply in practice. I, I never was someone that was comfortable with, uh, with things. Uh, and then it appears the opportunity to, to enter, uh, to study in the academic, uh, world.

First I tried in the, the so-called formal universities and educations, but all the requirements to enter, uh, was completely not fitted for, uh, at that time at, at 30 years old. Guided needed to work, to, to eat. So, uh, I found some, um, uh, in, in private, uh, institutions where I could follow that path. Uh, but again, uh, my life is training, uh, is working with families, working, uh, with dogs, um, during that passage in the academic park.

I had opportunity to work in a, in a lab, an animal lab, where I applied some of these, uh, concepts. Uh, and then I tried to rep, uh, replicate them outside. Uh, and is is completely different. Uh, what happens inside of the lab. The control we can have over the environment is something that, uh, I, I don’t believe is possible to replicate 100%.

Um, then from there, uh, I have, uh, also the opportunity to come to Denmark when I was almost giving up of everything. Uh, and 10 years after I’m still here and every time I try to leave the dog world, it seems there’s something that’s pushed me, uh, again. And, uh, here I am basically, 

well, don’t try to leave the dog world.

Why the heck would you leave this world? 

Uh, at, at the moment. I think we, we can understand why, uh, all these, right? Uh, I think the level is so low that, uh, we are living by, in algorithms, in building audiences in mock, mock the others in make fun, make fun in attack, in destroying lives. People are, are losing the sense of humanity.

Um, and I, I don’t feel that I fit, uh, in, in these terms. But then we have the other side people that are really interested in, um, learn, people that are real interested in, um, think a bit out of the box and, and challenge some, uh, some concepts, some ideas. And, uh, I, I think that is, that, that should be, and that’s why I’m still holding.

Uh, if not, I just dedicate 100% to, to the dogs and the, to the owners. And, uh, I just give up, uh, of all the rest. And that is also one of the reasons why I am writing now all these books after all these years and collecting all, uh, all articles. I have, uh, old, uh, memories. And then it’s a kind of a way to leave everything published.

Uh, if one day I just say that easy enough, 

well keep writing books and stay in the industry. And I, I can tell you, at least from my experience, you know, we, if you get on social media, obviously you think of the dog training industry, it’s incredibly polarized, it’s crazy, and everyone’s fighting. But that’s only the people on social media.

Right. And if you mention it to a client, or, you know, when friends, if I’m talking about the industry and they find out if you say dog training’s a very polarizing industry, their first response is like, what? Like they, they have no idea. Right? The average person doesn’t know, doesn’t care. They just want to live a good life with their dog and have fun.

And I think it’s easy for all of us to get caught up in 10 people’s craziness and then we assume everyone’s like that. Right. And it’s such a small group. 

Yeah. Yeah. And that is the also one of the interesting, uh, points is, um, of course we have polarized ideas, but if we see it’s only a, a few, uh, number of, uh, individuals who, who create all these, all these problems, and I believe by experience or I’m sure.

That they don’t represent the, that, so call it movement. Uh, I, I, I really don’t believe in, in both sides. Okay. I’m talking on, on both sides. 

Well, a lot of the craziness seems to be stemmed from people that make their money on social media. And I’m not throwing everyone under the bus who makes their money on social media.

’cause that’s certainly not true. But the, a lot of the outspoken craziness you look at and you wonder how much of this is even their real opinion versus this is how they get a paycheck. 

Yeah. Uh, in, in my last book, uh, I wrote, uh, a passage that is from a niche, uh, when people start to stare too much, uh, into the a, the ab starts to staring back.

So it’s a bit of that. Uh, some people got so Osage of their own audience, of their own beliefs that they just, uh, turn off off the world. They became Osage of a world that makes them to lose that sense of humanity, most of all. But also the responsibility of, uh, of giving some kind of sounds and educational, uh, part if, if we wanna change something, we need to provide people with knowledge, with some, um, with critical thinking.

Uh, I, I always, uh, write in the more, in some con, controversial, should not be controversial, but they’re, uh, topics that people should not believe a single word that I’m saying. They can, uh, look by themselves in the scientific literature. Uh, it’s, it’s everything there. What I’m saying, uh, I’m not creating.

Uh, it’s everything, uh, published and then it’s up to the people to choose the best they, they they wanna do. 

So you said something Roberto just a minute ago that I thought was really interesting and it was something along the lines of, you cannot cre recreate in real life what happens in a lab or in a study.

Could you expand on that? Because I, I think that’s really interesting in that setting, crucial to the dog training world right now to, to understand that distinction. 

Yeah. What I was doing in the animal lab was, um, I cannot go into, in de in details ’cause of some contractual things. Um, but I, I was in, in a lab, uh, working with the, the genomics, with the genetics of the mice and prepare them to go to the, to the places to be, uh, tested.

Uh, and we, we, um, were finding, uh, a lot of problems regarding with behaviors, with, uh, distress, with a lot of, uh, situations that it was easier to kill the mouse instead of try to address the, the situation. And I, I started to, to do that and, uh, since they, their life was limited to a single box, it was easier to manage the environment on there.

Uh, and that is the main difference is, uh, outside in the real world as I call it, uh, we cannot control the environment. Maybe we can be aware of some situations, but there are so many details that it’s impossible. Even the temperature, uh, is a factor that can, uh, uh, affect the, the behavior in that context.

So are these small details that, uh, we are not able to control? Um, 100%. Um, and we can in the, in the lab, uh, environment. 

So could you maybe speak to how that ties into the dog training world? Because I’m sure we all see online studies reference that studies prove this or they prove that, or, you know, um, you know, and maybe even the difference between like a good study and a bad study and a survey.

I mean, I think there’s so many ways we could take this, but I’m just curious your thoughts. 

Well, uh, a study does not prove anything. That is the first thing that is in, uh, uh, it’s one of the principles, uh, new. You can find that in, uh, again, in any scientific, uh, methodology, literature, uh, a study, uh, uh, what it does is simply analyzes, uh, and test, uh, hypothesis.

It comes with the conclusions, it comes with the limitations. And, uh, it needs to follow some, um, some factors or some necessary requirements, uh, to be tested after. Uh, and we now, with the situations of the surveys, with some lack of information that the studies have, uh, it, it makes that re replication, uh, a bit harder.

Uh, so of course people are free to say that the study is proving this is not proven. It’s showing these results, but let’s interpret the results. Uh, because one thing is, uh, uh, we can believe that this, uh, study, uh, is showing one thing, but when we start to analyze even, uh, what is called the inter observers, um, we, we can figure out that there’s a lot of things that were missing on that study.

But that is how science goes, uh, in, in, again, I have to talk about my books because it’s where I’m publishing that in a, in a public way. I made a critical analysis in several studies that, uh, that shows different results, uh, that least e everyone or every side, just to show that science is not perfect and science is not supposed to be perfect.

It’s a process. The pro the process of testing and, uh, and it needs to always to have the possibility of proving wrong. It’s the principle of, of possibility from copper, if I’m not mistaking now. Uh, it’s a how it works. It’s always a process. Continuous testing, replication, uh, and with the way that there’s progress, there’s not a final, um, uh, a final consensus.

’cause there’s another word consensus. Uh, there, there are several requirements for consensus that, uh, is not possible to have only with the, uh, studies, uh, like this. It needs to have some meta analysis, some, uh, continuous, uh, review. It needs to have feedback from several, uh, scientists. Uh, it is not that simple process as, as we think.

Um, and, and basically that’s, is, uh, it is what I can say, uh, about the studies. Uh, they don’t prove anything. They just show something. 

So to try to dumb that down for just any, anyone who doesn’t, who’s not a scientist, doesn’t have a PhD, is basically the point that you look at a study afterwards, you look at the results, but the causation you’re having to make some, as a lot of assumptions on, and there could potentially be bias there.

Is that an accurate statement? 

Yeah. And, uh, we can make a test here. Uh, I was not prepared for that, but we can make a test here if, if you wanna, 

are, are Jason and I taking the test? Because we 

might 

fail. 

We, we can make a, a small game or a small test. We can test here hypothesis that I have. Let’s 

do it.

Okay. So. I have this, it’s completely empty. I gonna write something here.

Now I’m gonna make you two questions and answer. As a normal owner, a normal dog owner, okay, first question is, should we create harm in dogs? 

No. No. 

Okay. Is uh, electric color a good thing?

Well, after that first question, 

yes. 

As an average dog owner, no. 

Okay, so you have your answer

it how it works. You can, if you want, you can create the answers for the studies that you want. It all depends how you ask.

Interesting. 

Yeah. 

So the, I guess the flip side 

of that would be conservative is, is call it conservative by bias, where you can build on to, to add the answers. I, I’m not saying that is the case of the studies. I’m saying that is the possibility that we can have, or, or some scientists can have if they want to prove something that they really want, that the result is like that.

Uh, we are humans, so of course we have our beliefs and sometimes we, we really wanna to have one answer for what we want. But again, that’s not science. 

Roberta, what was the word you used? What kind of bias? 

Constructive, uh, if I’m not mistaken, it’s constructive. Uh, bias.

Awesome. I like that little exercise. 

I’m gonna have some, give some exercises in the events that I’m gonna give with the a CP. Gonna have at least two, but then I’m, I can now also remember in other ones during the, the presentation, depending how sleepy people are.

Well, nothing wakes people up, like telling them you’re about to give a public test that’ll get everyone’s, 

yeah. So I get everyone, I should say that at the beginning. Well, I’m already saying, so 

uhhuh call on people randomly that that’ll keep everyone on their toes. 

Yeah. 

Well, there are so many directions we could take this conversation, and I’m excited to hear what all you have to say, but why don’t we just open really big picture Aversives, that’s a thing.

Now, the average owner doesn’t use that word, but the average trainer uses it a lot. Aversives, if you could define Aversives, I think would be awesome. But also, do Aversives have a role in dog training? Is that, is that a, are they something that should be part of dog training? 

Well, an aversive by technical definition, and now what I’m talking here is completely technical.

Okay. Uh, and can easily be confirmed in the, in the scientific literature. And perceived by definition is something that will create avoidance or escape by an organism. Uh, it does not, uh, necessary needs to be a bad thing because, uh, ever, ever. Again, I’m not talking about specific math methodologies or tools.

This is a, in a very functional way, uh, they have a role, uh, in, in learning. Uh, and this, uh, maybe you, you want also to bring after the, the situation regarding to stress. But, uh, the averseness in its itself should not equal to to arm. Uh, as often we, we read about, oh, adverse is, uh, is very harmful, well harmful when we look at it is, uh, more of, uh, category.

Uh, and averseness is a functional category, which is, which are, uh, different things. Uh, of course they can, um, overlap and they sometimes do. Um, but they are not completely interchangeable. Um. So if, uh, when you say that, do they have place in training? Well, by definition, all trainers, uh, use, uh, reinforcements.

They use, uh, punishment. They can use a degree of received, uh, if a dog is pulling. And, uh, if you stop, uh, only the stopping is creating pressure or on the neck or on this part of the, now I don’t remember the neck, hip, hips, just so there’s always a degree of averseness. But the biggest problem I’m seeing in the dog world is are the extreme examples that are given to aversive while in the reality, uh, it’s, uh, a question of the Greek.

And, uh, of course if we ate everything, even reinforcements, uh, can be, uh, harmful, uh, if we wanna go to that moral, uh, category. Uh, and with Skinner, we say that, by the way. Um, and so it’s all a question of how we define. And since the definition is already very clear, we assume that there’s always a degree of perceived and we need to, uh, to know, uh, how to apply it or to avoid it.

Sometimes it’s more about avoiding than, than necessarily to apply it. If a dog is in the environment that then, uh, that is already per se, uh, aversive, our tendency is to minimize that, to, to remove the dog from, from that place. So the way I see versus is not maybe the same way that is now in the dog world, uh, discussion.

They, they are part of life. Uh, now if they are inducted or if they are, uh, removed, that it’s a more technical way that we should see the context and analyze it, uh, accordingly with that.

So you had mentioned the word extreme a, a moment ago, and I take that to mean when I hear adversive talked about, people often go to extremes and talk about things that are cruel and use that to kind of define what an adversive is. And clearly that’s not accurate, right? It’s a, it’s a spectrum. There’s many things that be considered adversive.

Is that, is that what you were referencing, that people talk in hyperbole or these real big extremes that. Aren’t truly applicable in the real world. 

Yeah. It’s, uh, sometimes is no longer, uh, aversive. The, the idea that people are passing, but is where is the violence, are, are things that have no place in God training.

Uh, and are given that, uh, these examples that I, I personally think that doesn’t it, it doesn’t apply, uh, if you really study what the univers, uh, and we know about, uh, aversive control. But again, that is more, uh, we can test that more in, in the lab environment to have a reliable way to measure it. So when we bring some concepts that were mostly tested in the, in labs or Yeah, labs, laboratories, it’s always a kind of subjectives the way that we can measure the, the things.

So earlier you used the word distress, I believe, and we hear a lot on social media and other places, words tossed around, you know, stress, distress, use stress, and very often they’re not defined and they’re just kind of tossed out there. Do you mind walking us through those terms and the distinctions between them?

So, uh, stress, uh, refers to, uh, coordinated physiological and behavioral as consequence behavioral responses that originates when some environmental factors, uh, challenge the organisms. Uh.

Basically they, they are not negative, uh, from a biological and even behavioral, um, plasticity perspective. And everything I’m gonna talk now is more in that behavioral plasticity because it’s the area that I, I find very, uh, interesting. Uh, the stress systems exist precisely because of organisms must adjust continuously to changing, uh, conditions.

Uh, and that’s activation, uh, allows them to be more attentive to some situations to learn, uh, from the consequences and even for some kind of behavioral, uh, adaptation, um, in response to the novelty, even to the uncertainty, uh, or for other kind of challenge. And then we have three, uh, it was two, but uh, a paper from last year from pop, uh, and, and colleagues, uh, uh, and, and third kind of, uh, of stress.

But the first one usually is the I stress, which is the, the stress that that remains, uh, within the, uh, the copying, uh, capacity and helps to have an adaptive, uh, functioning, uh, on that the behavior, uh, stays, uh, organized. The, the individual can act, um, uh, effectively and, and recovery of course, when, um, when that demand, then we have the distress, which is basically that excess, uh, that when the demand.

Uh, exceeds that coping capacity. Um, the add adaptive responses depend not only on the presence of the stress activation in uh, itself, but also on the intensity and duration, uh, regarding the organisms abilities to, to adjust to, to that. Um, so basically it’s a kind of stress that does not allow the organism to, uh, efficiently to cope with it.

And then we have that. Third is the stress, which is a kind of, uh, cumulative, uh, load, uh, associated with, uh, excessive stimulation, but also with the lack of, of stimulation. Uh, and maybe that is more the kind of stress that we, we see with the.

Uh, or pet animals as you wanna call it, uh, because of that, sometimes that instability, uh, regarding the environment and can challenge a lot the, that regulation that allostasis or, or bolts or with the deprivation itself of the, of the environment.

So how is this applicable, do you think, for the average dog trainer? And the reason I ask that is all these words are tossed around, and I think if you were to say about a person, if you were to say, Hey, Matt has been really, really stressed lately, people would take that in a bad way and probably say, that’s not good.

Right? We, you shouldn’t be that stressed. But obviously if you said. This person experienced a small amount of stress during their day, that’s completely different, right? I think you can’t get through a day without having a small amount of stress. And the word stress and dog training is obviously just, you know, it’s often used in a such a, it paints such a broad picture, right?

That dog is stressed. Well, that sounds terrible. But then if you were to say, this training is stressful, could that be a good thing, actually, a small amount of stress to make the dog more resilient, or is that a terrible thing? So, I know that’s a very long kind of open-ended question, but what are your thoughts on the way trainers use the word, the way owners use the word, and how we should interpret all the, all the ones.

Well, the definition we know, but we also know that this is a, a, a very popular, uh, word. So the way that sometimes is applied, uh, can be, uh, can have a difference, a meaning to, to each one. Uh. When we say that the dog is stressed, but why is stressed? Uh, it’s because he’s over excited. It’s because it is, there’s lack of, uh, stimulation.

Uh, and why, why needs, for instance, in this moment with it stress to the situation. Uh, it’s a big, uh, a bit vague to, to explore that. Uh, if we don’t really know for sure why someone, for instance, wants to reduce stress, uh, in that context or in, in that situation for, to increase the resilience or to, to try to provoke, uh, o other kind of, of situation.

Uh, I can, I can give you some examples regarding how stress. Can be, uh, healthy. And I know that I’m gonna put nine problems with that. Um, especially I, I, I, I got aware of, uh, situation and allow me just to say privately, uh, that, uh, I know an author that was heavily criticized to publish something about stress and explain what stress is, uh, because the concept could be misused for others, uh, if we follow that kind of, uh, premise.

So we cannot talk about anything because someone will always misuse and it’ll, uh, misunderstand, uh, what it’s, uh, we need to explain the things we need to say what they are and, uh, what the evidence shows. And we cannot counter argue or criticize that with extremes again. Or with some kind of moral, uh, situations.

Uh, we, we need to, to explain what stress is, what the distress is very bad that, uh, I stress can actually help the, the learning. And when we talk about stress, everything can be stressful. Everything in life can, uh, create a, a response of stress. Again, the degree, the same with the aversives. Everything can create a degree, uh, of stress, uh, uh, degree of that physiological, uh, response from, from the organism.

And that depends of what individual, some individuals are more resistant to that, uh, others can cope better. So it’s always over generalization that is, uh, made under some concepts that. Personally, I don’t think it’s healthy. The more we educate, the more we give knowledge, uh, about concepts, the more we explain about concepts, terms, uh, their functions, uh, the better we could, uh, prevent, uh, a lot of, uh, discussions and damage, uh, because that’s the lack of knowledge that is very harmful.

Uh, and, and people think that also know a bit or, or that they have a lit, a little of knowledge is also much more harmful. Uh, but anyway, the, the example that I usually do, uh, is what we do here with the, with the dogs. Uh, for instance, if we are in a walk and if the leash for, uh, for instance, goes a bit behind the, the, the leg of the dog, we don’t help.

We just stop. We don’t make art and we just want for the dog to try to solve that because it is a everyday situation that we’ll deal maybe until the end of, of their life. So they should be able to solve these small things. And of course, it has a degree of stress at the beginning, but that will help to cope with the same if we we’re, uh, with the walking again on leash.

And we pass by that, uh, lamp, uh, light poles on the streets. The dog goes, uh, to one side. We go to the other. There’s the, there in the middle. And again, we don’t make ours, but we don’t help. We give the opportunity the dog to solve the problem. Some people say, oh, but that is, is very bad, poor dog. But then they’re gonna spend hundreds of dollars with puzzles and with the other kind of unn, unn useless, uh, gadgets, right?

That buttons, that is for me, let’s not talk about it. Uh, just to make the life of the humans better, right? So we, we are allowed to spend hundreds of dollars to a puzzle, but we cannot let the dog to solve a problem and help the dog if needed to solve a problem, to create some resilience to the daily situations you will find, uh, during the whole life.

So it’s a bit of paradox. That’s, uh, I think people should, I don’t know, uh, open more the eyes for some things that, uh, the, the virtual world as this, uh. Uh, peculiarities of, um, uh, of making people just shut down. Uh, some, um, some ideas. 

Ro Roberto, did you mention stress, um, as a lack of stimulation? Did I hear that correctly?

And if so, can you, can you expand on that a bit? 

Yeah. It can also create distress and, uh, the part of the re that is more the part of res. If you don’t have any stimulation, uh, you get stress. If now everyone remove the phones of everyone, uh, what will happen? People will be happy, will be, uh, they will be stressful.

There will be a lack of stimulation. And the same happens, uh, uh, with the dogs. Uh, they pass. They don’t have, it’s one of our biggest, uh, problems at calling this way, um, is the under stimulation dogs that, uh, destroy things. You know, people think they’re very stressful. Yeah, because it’s understimulated, it needs some activities in when, while it is, uh, alone or alone maybe needs some searching skills, uh, leaving some objects there to show, or of course, if you don’t give anything to show, you’ll find out something to.

So it is in that sense that, uh, the lack of simulation can create, uh, stressful, uh, events. And not only t stress, but it can also go to res uh, ’cause there are dogs that really cannot cope with the, with the environment where they are. 

Yeah. Thank you for explaining that. I truly believe that that’s, at least here in the US probably one of the greatest issues that needs to be solved with pet owners and pet dogs is again, a what I would classify as an extreme lack of appropriate physical and mental stimulation with an emphasis on the mental stimulation.

Yeah. And then we also need to see that not every person should have a dog. That, that is, that is our truth. But, but, but it is, it’s a fact. Some people, even with other people, they should not have contact with other people. But that is another discussion. But the, they should not have, uh, a dog. I, I don’t have a dog because I don’t feel that I, I’ll be responsible to have a dog.

You know, my life does not a allow to me to have a dog. So I’m telling during the eight or nine hours a day, uh, to people to walk with the dogs, to give long walks, to let the dogs, uh, sm, uh, smell everywhere, to, to activate a lot of good brain, uh, pet wise. And then I, I have my dog nine hours, uh, alone. So it’s also that kind of responsibility that is lacking a lot.

Uh, it seems okay, we have a dog, uh, or we gonna have a dog. And there’s always a solution for everything. No, it’s not. And there are dogs that are, are, are, are also not able to, to stay in a environment like homes. Uh, there are dogs that are much a bit more nice, sensitive, uh, and so they’re not fitted to, to live inside of, uh, a noisy, uh, neighborhood, for instance, especially when it’s alone.

So, circling back to something you said a few minutes ago, Roberto, you had mentioned puzzle feeders and other things, and it seemed like, and I I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, it seemed like you’re advocating for real life over. Uh, created puzzles, but could, could you speak to that kind of what you meant there?

And I think that’s interesting because puzzle feeders are sold, and I don’t wanna pick just on puzzle feeders, but all these things are sold as a fix for a hap they create a happy dog. And it seems like you might feel differently. I’d love to hear your thoughts. 

Well, I, I’m not, again, against the, the feeders.

What, uh, I’m a bit against, uh, is replacing the natural activities to, to gadgets and think that that will solve everything. It’s like giving now smartphones to kids, to, it’s to the meal basically. Uh, what about the rest? What about the interaction? Uh, we for instance, use the daily, uh, amount of foods of the dog and we split in, in tree, uh, different kind of skills, searching skills.

When the dog goes for a walk, they spread a bit of food around, so the dog goes smell, uh, sometimes they put on the trees, uh, you know, on the, uh, yeah, on the bottom, uh, of the tree. So the dog is smelling a bit everywhere. We use that as a problem. Solving can put inside our bottle or in, or try to use ALS clothes and, and make some, uh, different kind of, uh, exercises.

And then what is, what we call contact skills, which is to teach the, the dog or to sit or to come to us. So we use that, that daily, uh, food as a stimulation and uh, as also as a tool. We can call it tool in some. To, to improve. So that’s why we have these natural things, uh, that, that sometimes it is easy just to buy, uh, a gadget to, to have the.com, and actually they are not really calm.

Then they have to buy two, and then they buy three, and then it does not work. We go to other pets that maybe his vale don’t talk here. Uh, but basically it’s that, and we say including to the, to the owners that, um, is a good opportunity to them to establish more connection to the dog and give some time to the dog because they can prepare, uh, this, that, uh, or these, uh, old clothes and, and, uh, try even to imagine ways to, to work with the dog.

We have people here that want to make, uh, sanitation, uh, basic of course, but having different activities in outside with the dog, uh, not necessarily running, uh, but long walks. It, it’s, it’s not, maybe it’s not enough, but, uh, it helps a lot. One hour, two hours walking, uh, through different, uh, environments. We know that people that live inside of big cities maybe is not that easy, uh, but again, there’s always, uh, a way that we can promote a bit more outside, um, life to, to the dogs.

That’s a pretty old school outlook. I love it. Be outside and enjoy your dog. Walk with your dog. Let your dog do dog stuff. 

Enjoying the life. Simple things. Uh, again, we don’t need to, to recreate the, the wheel. We don’t need to. Sometimes it, it seems that we need to come with a new thing to, for us to, to be very, uh, special with the, with the things.

And we see that in the social media that there’s new words, new terminology, and then we will see and okay, that already exists. Uh, it has another term. Uh, so it’s these needs of maybe creating new things. Uh, we don’t have to, we just need to be as natural as possible. 

Let’s take a quick second to talk about the National Canine School for Dog Trainers.

They have been a proud sponsor and a supporter of the IECP for over 20 years now. National Canine is in Columbus, Ohio, and they offer professional certifications and education for dog trainers. Since 1981. Over 2,500 people have completed in-person instruction and received their certification at the National Canine School for Dog Trainers.

National Canine graduates have created businesses in all 50 states and in more than 50 countries and territories around the world. We invite you to explore what National Canine has to offer. Please visit www.nknine.com for more information back to the show. So speaking of social media, when let’s remove fighting, you know, people that are calling each other names or whatever, ob obviously, I would assume you’re opposed to that, but do you see things on social media that have good intentions that just drive you nuts?

And I like something that annoys me is like a, you take a reel or a short, whatever you wanna call it, you can’t ever give enough detail in a 32nd video. Right? To do any, any, anything justice with your background. Are there things that trainers say or do online that even if you’re not opposed to that particular trainer, that you, it just drives you nuts because you think it’s maybe pushing the industry down the wrong path or simplifying things that shouldn’t be simplified?

We, you can simplify without being simple. This can make sense. You can be direct with something, uh, without, uh, being too technical. You don’t need to use ex uh, I call expensive, uh, words to, to make you more, uh, professional or not. Uh, I don’t believe that that trainers can have a kind of the evil sides of doing things even when they’re attacking the others.

I don’t believe that, uh, that evil essence, uh, on that, uh, what I see is, uh, a bit, uh, how can I say this? Uh, Shriners, basically they have, or they should have knowledge in behavior modification and the attitudes they have. They’re also teaching others how to deal with the same topics in the same situations.

So if you are hostile in say something to, to someone or to comment on, on a, uh, a single post, you are teaching your audience, you are teaching your followers that they should do the same. So this is a bit of imitation, what is created, but then, uh, when you are also using, uh, words, and the one that most annoys me, but annoys me because again, I’m, my background is ology, and we analyze behavior as function.

Uh, so when I always, um, listen about reactivity reactive behavior, I’m like, but what do people wanna to mean with this? How can we analyze, uh. For, uh, tinbergen for questions. How can we analyze reactive behavior? So maybe that is the word that, uh, can annoy me, but, but again, is how people learn. Uh, there’s a big lack of ology.

Uh, the study of ology in the do training. Now people are li uh, listen more, are learning more from psychology. And the approach is different. I’m not say that this worst is different. Of course, if you give me to choose, I will be biased. And I’ll say that ology is always the best approach, uh, but one complement the others, but does not replace.

And that is the biggest, uh, issue I’m seeing now is our psychology. Uh, our comparative psychology is replacing, uh, ology. And I have the, the feeling, and I already research about it, that most of the cases is because of one of the biggest misunderstandings in the dog world some years ago regarding the so-called dominance theory.

And they put that on the ology, like ology was the field who created that. So it’s a bad thing. And people started to, to let talk about, uh, they didn’t talk anymore about, uh, ology. What you see now about ology, it’s in the middle of other fields. If someone talk, uh, about the, the four questions, if someone talks about evolutionary processes, you’ll not see that now.

Necessary because it’ll avoid a lot of misunderstandings. If we could understand the stereotypical behaviors, if we can understand our behavior, um, the, the evolutionary basis of behavior, uh, how, what influences behavior, which basically is everything inside and outside. Uh, a lot of, uh, I don’t say problems, but we could have a better interpretation of, of these things and avoid a lot of unnecessary, uh, discussions.

So just backing up for a moment, moment, could you walk us through the difference between ethology and psychology? 

Yeah. The same as, uh, psychology and veterinarian, uh, fields. The, this is the way that we classify behaviors, ology classify behaviors by their function. Now true, uh, evolution, uh, it’ll influence the leading the individual, uh, psychology and, and veterinarian, uh, the veterinarian field or veterinarian field.

Uh, it classifi behavior by symptoms. Uh, especially in the veterinarians. There’s a kind of, okay, this symptom, this symptom, this symptom, we have this diagnosis, so we will prescribe this. Uh, it’s our different approaches, uh, and their approach is correct for what they do. The same with psychology. And then if we go to the, the development, developmental psychology, they classify behavior through the stages of, of the age of our age.

So each, uh, field and sub field, they have different ways to, to analyze behavior. And personally, again, I’m completely biased on that, but. I believe that bringing a bit more of ology, uh, will, will be much better, uh, in my view. 

Could you give us an example of, pick any topic you want, anything that’s common in dog training that dog owners would see and maybe like kind of walk us through the difference of how Anthologist might approach it versus a psychologist or a veterinarian.

Uh, yeah. One of them are terms that were created more from the veterinarian part, or the psychology part is a bit mixes, but we have, for instance, fear aggression or predatory aggression. These terms. If when we try to analyze this in a it logical point of view, we see that forest stars completely separate, uh, uh, uh, evolutionary, uh, strategies or behavioral, uh, strategies.

We see that even, uh, in the brain are, are different areas that are activated. So it’s not possible to have everything together. So it’s in that, uh, level of analysis that, um, we, we try to see, uh, what is causing the behavior, what can be influencing how this behavior, for instance, barking. What is the meaning of barking in dogs?

What, what it means when a dog bark, what it can mean. So what is causing, uh, the barking? Okay, how the barking, um. Uh, always the evolution of barking on these species. So are these small details that, uh, is lacking when we try to, to analyze, uh, a behavior, we try to put by that. Uh, the, and of course the causation is always a bit art pres, uh, mainly now on these days, uh, with so many factors, uh, affecting the behavior in a urban place.

Uh, and the way that, for instance, I, I analyze the, the behavior here, uh, can be different in the US ’cause the culture is different. Uh, the environments, uh, are different. So it, it’s always a bit complex, uh, how we can, uh, approach, uh, some, some subjects and maybe because maybe that, that’s why it’s easy to just, to put some symptoms and, and come with, uh, uh.

A kind of, uh, diagnosis. ’cause it’s easier on that way. You can spread that, uh, worldwide. But if you want to be a bit more specific, it should be on that. Try to identify the cows, try to identify the origin and try to identify the evolution of that behavior on, on that, uh, individual.

I like the idea of adding, thinking about the evolution of the behavior and why it even exists because I feel like trainers either talk about that a lot or they never talk about it. You don’t hear many people talking about that, you know, a little bit. And I think that’s, that’s probably an oversight in a lot of people’s part, that a lot of these, a lot of behaviors have obviously an evolutionary, a real component that the dog should be practicing that behavior sometimes.

And instead of just trying to crush it, maybe understand where it’s coming from and. Even potentially redirect it to something appropriate. 

Yeah, I believe so.

Alright, well why don’t we switch gears a little bit and maybe get practical for a moment. So, you often hear people talk about desensitization and it’s, it’s great and it’s, you know, of course, and I, I do think it’s great, but it’s always, it’s always, uh, shown, you know, explained in a, in a positive light.

Then you have flooding, which is pretty much always described in a very negative, you know, terrible way. And the distinction between them for some people is very hard to make. So I’m just curious your thought on what is the difference between those two things and when do they maybe overlap? Because at least in my opinion, I do feel like there’s a time that people are using those two terms in an overlapping way.

Well, the, the best distinction will be in terms of intensity and the control, uh, controlability. Uh, this, the sensitization involved is, uh, gradual exposure to a, a ti and, uh, at a level where the behavior remains, uh, functionally regulated. Uh, so the individual still can, uh, make choices basically. And, uh, that learning, uh, then, uh, occurs by, uh, ation and then new associations can, um, can help, or when it’s faced with new, uh, associations can help a lot that, uh, that process.

Then we have the floating that’s basically is exposed to the individual to stimulus in a very high intensity or duration, uh, and limiting. Also some degree the, uh, escape or the, or the distance that, uh, we’ve less, uh, in intensity, uh, response, uh, on that. So basically, uh, is that, but, and maybe it is logically the distance regulation and, uh, avoidance.

Yeah, they are primary strategies, a across species, the avoidance and even the escape. Uh, so yeah, maybe that is the, the main distinction between both is the intensity and controllability. So I’m, when you say that they can overlap, it’ll be in a, which, uh, sense. 

I think I, I’m not speaking from a clinical, scientific term.

I, I think the, I mean, they overlap in the way trainers use them. So one trainer’s desensitization sometimes could be another trainer’s flooding. And what I mean by that is some people when you desensitize a dog might spend six months to do what someone else does in four days. Now that person that’s doing that in four days, and they say they’re desensitizing, someone else might look at that and say, well, you’re actually flooding the dog.

You’re, you know, as you’re healing them past that or whatever it is you’re doing that thing that stresses them out. You’re not giving them the ability to truly leave the situation. You’re pushing too hard, too quick. And I find that interesting just because of the, the word de desensitization being used sometimes I think is used improperly and people are pushing too quickly.

But I think sometimes people use the word flooding, kind of like a slur against another trainer. Like, oh, they’re not training the dog, they’re just flooding the dog. And I’m just curious your take on that. 

Yeah. Uh, in human, uh, trials, um, floating, uh, actually works. Uh, I, I remember some studies on P-P-T-A-S-D.

Uh, post stress, um, post-traumatic stress where floating, uh, actually, uh, improve it, um, uh, workers very well. Uh, but again, yeah, some people can say that they are using that in the same way that other people also say that are using the reinforcement and, and are not the same way that other people that are say, that are using punishment and they’re using reinforcement.

So it’s a bit of try to see the context where that is applied, but no doubt that floating, at least with human, the trials, I don’t know who would be the person now that would try to make any kind of floating OG without being skinny or alive. Uh, but anyway, uh, uh, but our concepts, if they exist, if they’re in the literature is because they have some results, uh, with that, um.

But I cannot just tell you that that trainer was actually using a, a floating. We don’t know. Uh, and that is again, the problem of the, uh, bit of lack of understanding the terminology, uh, or not understanding at all the concepts that are involved. And, uh, of course, floating is a word that, like punishment, it bring you some kind of moral, uh, idea like floating.

But what are you doing? Uh, so maybe it’s more a kind of moral interpretation than a functional one. It’s what I, I can understand from that. 

I like that last distinction, that sometimes it’s a moral distinction because I, I just, I guess I’ve, I’ll throw out a specific scenario to you and I’m just curious what you think.

If you have a dog that’s terrified of slippery floors and you get ’em on a leash and you toss, let’s say you start with food, you toss treats across a slippery floor, one every foot with the hope, the dog will, you know, go treat the treat and they’ll learn to walk over the floor on their own. And that just simply doesn’t work.

So you decide to try to walk ’em over the floor on leash and move quickly to just get them past, you know, just to get, to get them past it and get them to walk across that floor. In your opinion, is that flooding and if so, would that be wrong? And I know there’s a lot of variables there. How is the dog handling it?

How much force are you using it? But I’ll let you speak to that. 

Well, for the last part, yes, I would see that it depends. And now if it’s floating or not, it’ll depends if. The, the dog in this case has the opportunity to escape if does not have the opportunity to escape. It’s not, it’s floating and it’s been put there, uh, completely.

Uh, we do an exercise, uh, with the horses, um, because horses are very sensible to, to noises especially, and sometimes we have to, uh, teach them to cross some kind of, uh, noisy, uh, floors. Um, and, and you is with that is a bit with the foot that we put around and we wait. There’s only that way that North has to go.

So we put some food, we wait, we try to see, but always giving the opportunity north to, to go back. But if he wants to get rest, so it needs to go, but. To do that. And that is also a kind of, uh, discussion these days because of use of the food, if we want the individual to, to be willing to get food. Uh, it also needs to have a degree of deprivation that the prevention is not fill out the, the, the or sweet foods and then we gonna try that.

So maybe we skip one meal and we use that meal to that purposes. So again, it’s a lot of, uh, variables, but if you want to use food, uh, to do something, you need always a degree of that, uh, deprivation

unless 

you’re working with people. Struggle. 

Oh, sorry Jason. Go for it. 

I think a lot of pet owners str and, and even new trainers struggle with, um. Employing deprivation as a strategy in training. Um, okay. We, we, we use it quite a bit. Um, and, 

but when I, deprivation is only that degree is not let the dog starving.

If we have a training, for instance, 10 in the morning, the dog don’t take the breakfast at eight walk. So wait, be one hour more. You’ll not die in one hour. 

I agree.

It Labrador, maybe we can discuss that hour between one two hours. It’s, it’ll not make that big difference. Uh, I know people struggle, but again, is, is the way that is, uh, interpreted and explained. Uh, and if we are using foods, there’s always a level of deprivation. If we really wanted to go deep on that, there will be, uh, you know, the five freedoms, freedom of anger and all that.

Even the five freedoms there, one of the freedoms will be in the jeopardize on that. ’cause there’s always a bit of anger on, on that to promote the, uh, the mo motivational, um, um, mechanism to, to the dog to be willing to, to do something. So there’s always, uh, that the Greek, again, again, uh, it’s a question of degrees, uh, of everything.

Even with reinforcement, even with the punishment, uh, like punishment does not create another behavior or there does nothing increase behaviors, as I already read. The technical definition of punishment is decrease behaviors and uh, and the reinforcement in increases. So it’s not possible you be punished.

The behavior, not the individual punish the behavior. And increases, if in increases is not a punishment or you think that is a punishment, but you are using too much intensity and is not adapted to the individual if you turn your back to the dock to stop, to to jump. And if he stop to jump for a while, it was a punishment by the definition because the behavior decreases.

But then there’s a, a kind of, um, how can I explain this in simple terms? Uh, when a behavior is. For a long time being, uh, uh, repeated in that situation. And then the conditions change. If before the honor was, no, no, don’t do that. Don’t do that. But if the, the function of the behavior was to get attention, so of course that the dog will do more and more, but then if we break that shine, and if we turn our back, and if the dog for a moment just stop, some have the tendency to go around and jump much more, we turn again, then the dog sometimes, uh, ever increase in of that behavior to see, because okay, if this is not working, if I increase a bit, the intensity of of the behavior, it’ll, uh, work.

And if it still does not work, then after that spike, it goes down. So that’s why the, the way that the punishment. In the technical for me is applied also as that, uh, nuances, uh, because maybe it’s not right away, but it’ll take a bit until the, that behavior until the dog associated, okay, this behavior will not bring me any benefit as before.

So it’ll take a bit. Then of course, we or Reforce, uh, after a while or we create another situation. So we don’t need always to be turning our back. We can create another situation there when we are arriving. Some people, um, even for us to make things easier, starts when they arrive. If the dog does not jump, they drop a bit of the daily food on the floor and make the dog, uh, smell and, and catch the, the food around.

Uh, and after that, people. Uh, after one or two minutes, uh, riding home, taking out the coats and, and everything, then they give some attention to the dog. And meanwhile the dog is, uh, happy because, okay, we, the only is arriving. I don’t need anymore to, to spend energy jumping here to have some attention. Now I just stay quiet and things happen.

So in that sense, when we want to solve, uh, these situations, it’s always a mix, uh, of contingencies and, uh, another variables. What I’m doing is very basic. Uh, what situations that nothing of that work. The, the owner, the, the way to solve that was the owner started to enter by the kitchen door where the dog didn’t have any association at all, and the dog was like, what’s.

Was looking to one side to another, but we were supposed to come from that side, not from here. And then we use, again, that break of the chain of behavior to, okay, now we are gonna say what we want. So it’s a mix and it’s very interesting and it’ll be discussions that I, I prefer to, to hear more because the behavioral part is not limited to, to reinforces and punishment and aversives is much more than that.

It’s a beautiful world that people are spending time in other unnecessary discussions. 

So at the start of that answer, you mentioned something that I, I understood it to be that if what you consider a punishment is maybe poorly planned out or too hard or too extreme, it might not actually operate like a, a punishment as intended.

And if, if that’s not what you meant, feel free to correct me. Of course. But if you could dive into that a little bit, I think would be great. 

So punishment by definition is everything that will decrease an expect of a behavior. That is the technical definition. Does not say what, does not say that is a bad thing, does not say anything.

It’s something that will decrease a behavior. And, and now I don’t wanna use the extreme cases. I just wanna use that, that, uh, functional way. If you apply the, that punishment that you think, maybe you think, okay, if the dog is jumping. I think that if I turn my my back, that will be a punishment because the dog will stop.

But if you do that 100 times in the dog still jam, maybe it’s not the correct punishment to, to be biased to that behavior. Maybe you need to, to be a bit more creative like the other, he enter by the other, uh, the other door. The same with the, the le And that is the, perhaps the, the biggest, uh, challenges for honors.

’cause they think that, okay, if I, I’m always doing this, this is a punishment. Well, maybe it can be at the beginning, but if we are always, and always only, uh, doing this, it’s, it has almost an effect of, uh, um, uh, a vaccine. Are just doing this. And then with the time you need to be stronger and stronger and it, it treats a time that’s, uh, you have then use other kind of materials instead of go to the root of the situation.

Why is the dog, um, uh, pulling? Because maybe pulling is the, the final behavior of a shame of other behaviors. Since the association of putting the, the harness, since the association of open the door and the dog just go like, uh, an, uh, athlete. So we need to explore why is this behavior, again, we bring to that analysis of the behavior, why is this happening?

What is doing this? What is the reason? It’s always making the why, why, why, and we’ll reach, uh, eventually we’ll, uh, reach that. And, and then the same with the reinforcer. There are, uh, two concepts, the learning theory, which is the adventitious reinforcement and, and punishment, which are inforce. Um, we are using reinforces without knowing what we think.

That, uh, that being always doing this to the dog can be a punishment. It can be a reinforcer. We dunno, uh, in our ideas not, but how can we know for sure? It’s again, um, and that is one of the reasons, um, I always tell my students to do. It’s when possible record your training because then you can evaluate, especially record when nothing is working, because then you have time to see some small details that maybe just went away.

Uh, so it’s very important to record. Uh, is important for you. Try to understand what can be wrong here, what I’m missing, what I’m doing wrong. Uh, I do mistakes every time because I’m always trying to test new things, uh, new approaches, how to do this and this. I’m always making mistakes and I’m happy for that because it’s not, it’s armless.

It’s just small details. Uh, it’s not thinking. I give always the analogy of the hammers and nails. If you only think that, okay, my wife is the hammer, so all the problems will be nails, that is a big mistake. You are full, the clients, you are not being responsible to the owner, and you are fooling also yourself.

So in my, uh, I always call in the utopian world, people should. At least get aware or practice different kinds of approaches, drink from several fountains, and then they choose what, what they want. Uh, some people, okay, identify more in this way, but then it’s not copy. Uh, they, they should not copy. Uh, they should develop themselves to continue with their essence as person, because as we are, as person is most of the times, uh, pass, uh, with the way that we work.

That’s are my feelings on that. 

I love that, that last statement of don’t copy. Drink from many different fountains. ’cause I do think for a lot of newer trainers, there’s a struggle there where they find one trainer they like a lot. They basically copy that trainer. And then when that trainer recommends another trainer, like a social media trainer that they respect or learn from, well then they go kind of copy that person as well.

But it’s somewhat of an echo chamber as opposed to learning from many different schools of thought. 

I had a Greek guy one time who used the analogy, he said, be a butterfly. And, and another one of the folks looked at him and said, what do you mean be a butterfly? He said, be a butterfly. Go to all the different flowers and take from each and use what works.

Okay, I like that. 

But has to be like this. Uh, and it is also a way to keep us busy, uh, dog training if we stop. If we stop our thinking, if we are just working every day, and if we don’t try, uh, to learn different, uh, this is also bad for our brain, even to our mental health, uh, to long term. As we start to get, uh, I don’t say, I don’t like the word crazy, but annoying.

Let’s call like that. We get a bit annoying with everything and we don’t wanna understand. I always try to understand I can, maybe in the end I continue disagreeing, but that’s, that’s okay. But at least I try to understand why is this person thinking on this way? When I was a bit more innocent, I would ask them that, but I always, some of the times I would get some answers that, uh, I, I didn’t like too much.

Were not necessarily polite because if you are asking something to a trainer. Or a trainer is asking to a trainer for the first time, it seems kind of attack. Like, are you doubting of, of my work? Then it’s a bit of the ego that going on, uh, on my posts. Uh, I do, I receive a lot of messages from trainers on.

Don’t agree at all with me, and I’m completely fine with that. I don’t take personal, I explain myself If we still don’t agree, okay, I’m, I’m fine, completely fine with that. But we should most of all promote discussions and give the example if, uh, like us, I’m sure that we disagree in millions of things, but I don’t need to attack you.

I don’t need to criticize you. I don’t need me, you or I don’t wanna leave after this. Uh, interview or podcast and just say, oh, no, no. They, they are very, very bad. It is not my way. I express what I, I feel, I express, I try to share my experiences. Sometimes I get a bit stuck in some concepts because I try to make them easier, and then I get lost in my own, um, uh, thoughts.

Um, but I, I try, uh, at least I, I want to, to share, I want to pass knowledge. When I say, uh, I don’t want to appear humble when I say to the people, just, uh, don’t trust in me. Go search by yourself. Go. Don’t trust. Get out from the social media. Go to Google, uh, academic, go to research guide. You don’t need to have a, a PhD to inter to interpret, uh, a study.

You don’t need to have publish. Uh, studies on that subject to know if not, nobody could talk about anything. Right? It’s again, oh, we cannot talk about stress because other people will use that to abuse dogs. So we cannot talk about anything. Let, let’s not talk about cars because a lot of people will, are a danger on the road and we’ll lose cars to kill others.

Or let’s not talk about, uh, culinary because some people will just poison the, the husband and, and so far, I mean, we have to talk, we have to explain. And then what people do is knowledge that we cannot control. And it’ll be an easy way to start to filter, start to filter a lot of, um, uh, professionals.

I do feel like there’s a lot of people who are scared to say anything because of how it could be taken out of context. And I’m not even referring to scientists, but just the average dog trainer on a podcast or on a video, it’s very easy to grab 10 seconds, 20, 30 seconds and take it outta context. 

Yeah.

And the, the, the scientists, uh, uh, that’s one of the reasons I never wanted to follow the, the, that part of the academia just took my courses and then I just get out from there. Uh, it is a bit because of that, that a bit of, IM a bit of tism, uh, and I don’t like that. I like to be in the middle of the people.

I don’t like to be above of them. We’re nobody to, to be above of wherever we know nothing. The more I know, the less I know that that is, uh, is true, is a old quote. But, but it’s true. Uh, we are learning every day if we are willing to, but now, if, if we wake up in the morning, I, I go criticize the other guy.

Uh, I’m not gonna teach anything to anyone. And my approach is trying to be that I know that does not bring followers or does not bring anything, but I don’t care. Uh, my mission is, uh, in the moment in the DOC training is just try to pass some knowledge. As is, is the less chance if people don’t get educated, if people don’t, uh, start to question more.

Uh, I, I’m not seeing a very good end to this. I’m really not seeing a good end, especially for the dogs that they are no longer in this discuss.

Yeah, I agree. Um, so before we land the plane, uh, you’re gonna be presenting at the European Summit in June? 

Yeah. Uh, I’ll be there presenting the talk for, uh, about the signals, signal precision about the interspecies, uh, communication. That for me it’s the, the most important of everything and is what is lacking a lot, is the, is that lack, uh, of communication, uh, between humans and, and no humans.

With humans and, and humans too. But it is not my field. My field is humans and no humans. Uh, and I’m gonna give some. Kind of fundamentals about how signals work, how signals can be sent, how they are received and perceive it. Uh, and all that, uh, kind of systems that, uh, can be applied to all different fields in, in the animal training world.

Uh, ’cause are basic, uh, principles. Um, now we’ll give some examples, some models that, uh, I’m sure it’ll help people, uh, to, to have a, a broad, um, uh, experience or a broad knowledge about how signals, um, function. Uh, and I don’t, I, I, I never saw, um, something as deep as, uh, I try to present the things in the dog world, uh, mostly, uh, regarding the, all the.

And, uh, and functions basically is only about the functions and the, the concepts of, uh, signaling in the interspecies communication. I, I think people will like, uh, it’ll find interesting, especially the tests, I’ll put in the middle, practical tests about, uh, the work. Uh, I don’t know if dogs can also, uh, enter, but if people, uh, have dogs and if we have some time, they can also go, uh, to the stage and try to apply that.

That will be amazing if possible. 

So we’re gonna keep that part quiet. We’re, we’re, we’re trying to sell tickets here. Uh, so we don’t want people to know they have to come and take a test in the middle of this thing. 

No, no, no, no. We’ll 

keep that part quiet. 

Yeah, you can cut that. This part There’s no test.

Yeah. When I say test is a activity Yeah. To everyone that’s nobody’s of course, forced to, to do it. 

No, it sounds, sounds, sounds interesting. For sure. 

What I want is to keep people out of sleeping, especially if you in the morning, early morning. My main goal, 

I’m sure there’ll be plenty of coffee and then you’ll keep ’em on their toes.

Okay. I don’t need more than coffee.

Well, you guys will both be presenting at the conference, right? 

Uh, yes. I think I’m in the morning as well at some point, so I’ll, we’ll make sure there’s plenty of coffee 

I’m, I’m hoping to attend, but that’s my 20th wedding anniversary, so I have to convince my wife that going to Poland to listen to a bunch of dog trainers is how she wants to spend it.

So wish you luck on that. 

I’m telling you, you’ll absolutely fall in love with that area. So if, if you’re looking to go and celebrate, it’s a great place for it. I’m, I’ve been there. Uh, it is, it, it’s absolutely gorgeous. It truly is. It’s 20 minutes from Cro Island and Krakow’s a mesmerizing city, little city, so.

And it is also close to the Salt Museum as I already been walking. And it looks very nice. 

The Salt Museum is amazing. It absolutely is. It’s only like 10 minutes from the venue and it is, it is. Don’t be in a hurry to get through it, I’ll tell you that. ’cause it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a cool place to go. 

So is that the, I’ve read about a salt and mine in Poland where they have like an underground, there’s like a church, a cathedral down there.

And Is that the, is that what you’re talking about? 

That’s the one, yeah. 

Absolutely. 

So that’s been on my bucket list. I didn’t realize that, was that close to where the conference gonna be? 10 

minutes, two birds, one stone Matt anniversary trip and the, the salt mine right 

there. I’ve been telling my wife for years, we need to get to that salt mine because I did some reading on it years ago.

And people like their entire, like their father worked in the salt mine, their grandfather, their great-grandfather. ’cause it’s been running for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. It’s absolutely wild. I can’t imagine. Working in an underground salt cathedral that your great-grandpa was also helping carve.

It’s crazy. 

It’ll, it’ll take you, literally take you hours to walk through it. The, the cathedral itself is, to be an underground is massive and it’s absolutely stunning. 

Now we have a reason. 

Yeah. Okay. I’m gonna, I’ll, I’ll try the hard sell later today, or the soft sell. Like you’ve said, you’ve always wanted to take a trip together for our 20th and you’ve, you’re always talking about salt mines.

Let’s do it.

Alright, well as we start wrapping up, Roberto, last question for you. If you had a magic wand and you could change anything in the dog training industry just overnight, what would it be? 

I would give more discipline to the trainers. Discipline in the, in a sense that means intellectual integrity, responsibility, uh, self-regulation, uh, and, uh, in how we communicate, especially in public spaces, including the virtual one where our words, uh, more than actions, uh, influence the, the others.

Maybe that will be that. 

I love that. Well, I think that is a, a good note to wrap up on. 

Yes. 

Well, Roberto, thank you for taking so much time. I know you’re busy and we’ve got a crazy time difference between us. It’s nighttime over there. So thank you very much for spending all this time with us. 

I appreciate, thank you very much.

It’s 

been 

a pleasure, Jason. 

See you soon. 

Oh, yes. And you a 

time. 

Yeah. And you gonna listen to me the same thing two times. So le let you. 

Perfect. 

Yeah, 

I’m looking forward to it. 

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