[00:00:00] So turn it up. Let’s go!

Welcome to Dog Pro Radio

Welcome to Dog Pro Radio 

Welcome to the show, Sarah. I’m excited to have you here. 

Perfect. Thank you so much. 

Yeah, absolutely. Been looking forward to this for sure. But why don’t we start– I’ve got all kinds of things I wanna talk about today. I’ve been watching you on Instagram and all kinds of cool videos, but can we start by just telling everyone, Sarah Carson, who are you?

What are you all about? 

Of course. Um, I do feel like that’s changed over the years, but I mean, a, a really short intro for myself would just be that I started out as a dog trainer, self-made. Um, kinda didn’t really have any dog trainers around me to mentor me, and I learned through a lot of YouTube videos and, um, getting clients when I was 11 years old and [00:01:00] kind of building myself up from there, starting with basic obedience, trick training, agility, and then getting more into personal protection and service dog training.

So I’ve done, I’ve done a variety of things, and I think that it’s really fun to, to kinda figure out what your niche is 

Yeah, that is, that’s a big variety of things, for sure. And I know there’s a lot of dog trainers that have a variety, but there’s also a lot that focus on one thing forever and don’t branch out too much.

So, I mean, what would you say is your favorite thing that you do out, out of all of those? 

Definitely dancing with dogs. Um, uh, I guess you could just say trick training, but canine freestyle in general is probably my, my favorite thing to work on. Um, it’s something that takes a lot of obedience and a lot of repertoire for a dog to kind of excel at.

Um, and it’s also a team sport, so I really enjoy creating that relationship with a dog and creating routines that make people smile and inspire them. 

Okay. Well, why don’t we just dig into that, then? So since that’s your [00:02:00] kind of favorite thing you’ve, that you’re currently working on. So obviously there’s a lot of stuff on Instagram, a lot of clips of you.

You’ve been on America’s Got Talent and I think many other places. W- walk me through a little bit about, I guess, of that, that specific journey. How did you get to America’s Got Talent? How did you get to now you’re in D- uh, Dollywood. How, like, how did this all become a thing? 

I mean, it kind of, it created itself.

I just started teaching fun little tricks and posting them online, as you mentioned. Um, and those videos did really well. I mean, it was during the time of, like… Uh, TikTok wasn’t a thing yet, and we had, um, the short little clips that you post. Like, I had, um… A video went viral of my dog going into, into a suitcase, and people just loved that.

Has nothing to do with dancing. It’s just a fun little trick. Um, so we, we kind of started with that, and I think the platform was called Vine. That’s, that’s what… It was before TikTok and all of that kind of became a thing. But my first television appearance was The Late Show with David Letterman, [00:03:00] and I had no clue.

I’m Canadian, so I didn’t know who Letterman was. I didn’t know what this was about. It was just a free trip to New York to be on TV with my dog. Um, so we did that trip, and my dog blew a bubble through a bubble wand, which was very difficult, and it wasn’t, like, 100% all the time. So I’m very glad that he did it on TV.

But from that, we were given a lot of opportunities to come back to the United States and travel and tour and do theaters and fairs and kind of dip our toes into what performing would look like. And, uh, thanks to social media, America’s Got Talent would constantly reach out to me and be like, “Oh, we saw this video.

We think you’d be great. You should audition.” But at the time, they weren’t supplying visas, and I’m Canadian, I’m not American. And so at the time, I said no. And then eventually I got an O-1 visa, which is, uh, a person of extraordinary abilities. It’s a very difficult visa to get, but it’s only for three years.

And so I did that, and I finally was able to be on the show. 

That’s an [00:04:00] amazing visa name. 

Isn’t it cool? A 

person of extraordinary abilities. 

Yeah. I, I thought it was pretty neat. Um, and the only reason I was able to get that was because with America’s Got Talent, um, that kind of is your extraordinary ability.

Like, just being able to say, like, “Oh, I have these newspaper articles of me performing at a local fair,” like, that wasn’t enough. Um, so being able to be on the show was honestly the reason why I’m, I’m still here and I was able to start on that path. 

So I guess I didn’t realize that America’s Got Talent reached out to people.

I assumed it was always the opposite. No. So they reach out to you and, and tell you to come audition. 

Yeah, they cast a lot of people. Um- Really? I mean, I would say that’s honestly why that most of the competitors are not even American. Um, they… I don’t wanna use the word poach, but they do. They, they follow other talent shows.

They follow what’s trending online. Um, there’s casting directors for the show that are constantly putting up posts looking for especially dog [00:05:00] acts, but acrobats and all of this stuff, like, different things. But yeah, they, they do a lot of casting for that show. 

I had n- absolutely no idea. So when you… I guess I have a question.

This has nothing to do with dogs, but when you w- watch that show, you see they follow people from the be- some people from the beginning, and I guess I… when I’ve watched it, I’ve wondered do they follow many, many, many people from the beginning and then just cut out the ones that aren’t interesting? Or is it kind of already, like, chosen from the start?

You’re like… You’re being followed because they know you’re gonna do well. 

I feel like it’s 100% casted, yeah. Um, like, I think that they, they didn’t need to make me cry, but that was… I think it was all scripted. Like, they were like, “This, this is talent. They’re very talented. They’ll get far. Let’s make a big deal out of it.”

And… ‘Cause there’s no, there’s no way. Like, if you watch my audition and they say, “Oh, I didn’t see a single trick,” and you watch dog acts now and you’re like, “Damn, Sara and Hiro were pretty good.” Um, so it’s… I think it’s just [00:06:00] scripted, and it, it helps. It definitely… I was the only person in the top 10 that didn’t have a golden buzzer.

Like… Or sorry, the top five. I was the only person in the top five that didn’t have a golden buzzer. Um, so I think that that did help, the fact that they kind of pushed me and my, my story. 

Interesting. Anything that you regret about America’s Got Talent? 

Yeah, really. I mean, there’s some people that watch it and they’re like, “Well, why did you say you were homeless and why did you say you don’t have family?”

And it’s like, it’s a TV show. Like, they make you say these things. It’s kind of true. Like, I was living in a car. I was traveling and I had hotel rooms, and I didn’t own a home in the United States, so like that wasn’t a lie. But I wasn’t homeless. But they wanted that agenda and they wanted that like vibe of, oh, she’s this, this sad, lonely, homeless girl that sleeps in her car with her dogs.

I mean, it’s kinda true, but that’s not how I would describe it. Interesting. So like, I mean, I don’t regret it, but I do- Yeah … I wish that people kind of understand like it is a TV show. It’s [00:07:00] entertainment. Like, if you know me as a person, you know, like I’m not sad and lonely. And yeah, I lived in a car at the time, but it wasn’t like a big deal.

That’s interesting. And when I asked that question, I wasn’t… I didn’t know the, anything about the homeless stuff, so that wasn’t like a, a pointed question. 

Yeah. 

Uh, that’s interesting. I mean, I know TV’s more scripted than what any of us realize, but- Mm-hmm … I have no experience in that, so you never know how scripted it truly is.

I remember when I went back for the finals, ’cause I had a little bit of a gap, um, the producer was like sitting like this, and they have the camera and they say something, and then you repeat it. That’s how it’s been like since day one with that show. And, and the finals were like, “Well, tell us how you’re feeling.”

And I was like, “Can you just tell me what to say ’cause I’m so over this and I wanna go home.” Like, I was just done. And they, the, by the end of it, they kinda wanted you to like be yourself and answer the questions yourself. And I’m like, “No, just tell me what to say. I’m, I’m super over this.” Like Yeah 

That’s wild.

[00:08:00] Okay, so Super Scripted. Tell me, I guess, a little bit about what is it like… I mean, most of our listeners are dog trainers, so everyone knows a dog is a living creature, and they’re not always gonna do what you expect, and you’ve gotta roll with the punches. What is it like filming for America’s Got Talent or any show like that?

You know, I, I’ll let you answer that however you will. I’ll just 

leave it there. Sure. I mean, with any other dog, it wouldn’t have worked. Um, it’s incredibly stressful. Um, they… It’s very demanding. Like, towards the end of it, I kinda took charge and was… I, I did my rehearsals by myself without my dogs, and they, they wanna see it with the dogs.

And I was like, “No, the dogs don’t need to rehearsal. I need to rehearsal ’cause I’m the one telling the dogs what to do.” Um, so if you don’t take charge, then they’ll walk all over you, and it, it’s, it’s a very… Any, any TV. I mean, I’ve done a lot of TV shows now. It is very, very stressful for the dog and for yourself because the timelines are super short.

You need to [00:09:00] come up with new routines. You need to train new tricks. And doing it in that kind of environment for a dog that’s not seasoned or used to it is just really hard. 

I’m assuming you get, you get pushback or people wanting you to do things that aren’t appropriate for the dog, like make 

changes you know won’t work.

Or, or I had, I had the opposite. Honestly, I had the opposite issue. Um, in the quarterfinals, which was personally my favorite routine, um, I practiced rappelling into the Dolby Theatre with my dog. And, like, I trained with people that were qualified to do that. I had all the proper gear. Like, I had, um, like Ray Allen and Modern Icon, like, all the tactical gear, you know?

And I, I did it. I rappelled in during the rehearsal, and they’re like, “Oh, we don’t like how the dog’s dangling.” Like, it’s like, “You saw the videos. You, you approved this, and now you wanna change it last minute?” And I, I’ve had two things like that for America’s Got Talent where they would change specific behaviors very, like, you’re performing in an hour, and they want you to reroute this whole thing.

And there are a lot of [00:10:00] things in those routines where the dog is lear- like, they’ve been trained to go to point A to point B, and now I have to change that. And I believe it was Actually, it was the quarterfinals. Um, instead of rappelling into the Dolby, we changed it that Hiro had to run across the judges’ table.

And if you watch that routine, he doesn’t do it because we had to change that almost 30 minutes to 40 minutes before we actually had to perform it. So he didn’t… He ran straight to me instead of going across the table, which in hindsight it did work because we used it in the next performance, and he did run across the table.

But yeah, so I had the opposite issues where they were telling me that I couldn’t do stuff that was pre-approved. I was never forced to do anything, thankfully. 

Do you think it was, like, PC, politically correct type reasons where they’re like, “The dog doesn’t look-” PETA. “… super happy right there, and we’re gonna get attacked by PETA”?

His tail was wagging the whole time. Like, like it wasn’t an issue, but yes, I… it was… They said they were gonna get [00:11:00] backlash, and I’m like, “I’m telling you, you’re not going to. People are gonna think this is so cool.” But they made me pull it. 

Wow. Yeah. Game time decision, huh? 

And they did that for many people.

Singers, they made singers change words or how they do something. Like, it, it was wild, um, just how much control they have over things. 

That’s interesting. Well, let’s dive in a little bit to trai- just training one of these dogs, a, a trick dog, and I don’t know how many trick dogs you have and how many you’re doing routines with, but where do you start?

Because as a lot… like, I think most trainers listening could see a trick and be like, “Oh, I think I could teach that to my dog,” or, “I think I could probably teach that one,” but there’s a lot in a routine. There’s a lot of creativity, a lot of planning, and then you, of course, there’s some tricks that you look, and you’re like, “Wow, that one seems exceedingly hard.”

So I’m just curious, where do you start? How long does it take to build the right trick dog for you, and then how long to build one of these routines? 

I mean, I’ve had dozens of dogs over the years. Um, like I said, been doing this since I was [00:12:00] 11, and I’m 31 now. Um, I think for what I do, it takes a very specific kind of dog.

It’s not even about training the dog the behaviors. I’ve, I’ve trained several dogs r- complete routines, handstands and, uh, jumping, like, ro- jumping rope, so many difficult behaviors. It’s more about will the dog perform these behaviors in a high-stress, high-distracting environment and enjoy it, and I’ve had so many dogs not enjoy it.

They can do it. They learn super quick. They pick it up. They like it at, at home, and then you throw them in front of an audience with lights, sound, all that stuff, and they’re like, “Nope. I don’t wanna do this.” Um, so training the behaviors for me is the easiest part. It’s getting a dog that is actually equipped temperament-wise for the performing aspect of things.

Um, but the other thing that I should note too for this is I can train a dog a walking handstand in three days- In my experience, the audience doesn’t care. They’re like, “We wanna see the dog, like, chase its tail or jump [00:13:00] rope or, or play dead.” Um, but the really hard tricks that us dog trainers really enjoy training ’cause it’s difficult and it’s, uh, fun for us to do, people don’t care, like at all 

You know, it’s really interesting you say that because my kids all play violin, and I am not a musician at all.

My wife is. And when I hear them play something fast, I’m always really impressed, like, by fast music. And but anyone with any knowledge of music will hear other songs, and they’re like, “Wow, that’s way better, way more technically-” Mm-hmm … challenging. Mm-hmm. And I associate the speed with being, like… I’m like, “Yeah, that’s amazing.

How are you doing that?” And it just shows my own lack of knowledge, but that’s what I was thinking of when you were talking about the tricks. So let’s dive in there a little bit. There’s some things that audien- that just get audiences amazed that are probably pretty easy, and you mentioned- 

Yes … 

chasing its tail.

Wha- what else? 

Yeah. Or, or play [00:14:00] dead. Like, they love when the dog, like, flips over on its back and lays there, and I don’t even teach that to my dogs. I’m like, “That’s so dumb.” Like, I’m not gonna do that. Um, or even, like, a trick, like, people love when the dog stands on their hinds and walks, which is a pretty difficult trick, but I don’t think it’s, like, really that impressive.

Um, so I, yeah, it, it is really interesting to see, like, what people really like and what they’re just like, “Meh, that’s cool, I guess.” 

So what’s the flip side, then? What’s something that is really, really difficult, maybe like, let’s say, one of your hardest tricks or the hardest, that people might not understand the challenge?

Honestly, it’s the walking handstand. I think it’s so underrated, and it’s incredibly difficult, and for some dogs it’s even harder than others. Um, I think it looks super impressive, especially if a dog executes it really well, and the average person… Like, I don’t even do it anymore for shows because it, people don’t care.

And this is the dog walking on their front paws? 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

And pe- I would think that would blow people [00:15:00] away. That sounds- No … really difficult. 

They’d rather see the dog, like, put their feet, their paws on your feet and dance, which takes, like- 

Really? … 

two sessions. Like, yeah. 

Interesting. I guess maybe it’s the dog trainer in me, ’cause I’m thinking through trying to teach a dog to walk and balance on their front- Mm-hmm

paws- Yeah … doesn’t sound easy in the slightest. 

No, it’s not. It’s not. But yeah, the average person is just like, “Nah, it’s cool,” and I’m like, “That’s, like, the hardest trick th- my dogs know.” Like… 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Or, um- So people listening- … like, distance tricks too, like a dog walking out in front of you and doing behaviors, that’s also…

I mean, I think it’s super impressive. Um, Roni with Rhythm did it on America’s Got Talent, and a lot of people, like, they don’t think it’s that cool. Another one is crossing your paws. I think that’s really cool and really hard, and the average person… I do it in my routine every day at Dollywood, and it’s hit or miss if it gets a response.

Interesting. You know, the, doing it at a [00:16:00] distance, it doesn’t surprise me that pe- People don’t really get it, but we see that, you know, just general obedience. Mm-hmm. If you haven’t trained a dog to down from a distance- Mm-hmm … they’re not gonna down from a distance, right? Exactly. They’ll down at your side all day long, and then- Yeah

they’re three feet away from you, and you say, “Down,” and they’re like, “What does that mean?” 

Over there, right? No clue. Like, right by you? 

Right. 

Yeah. 

So I, I can… So do, can you ever spot someone in the audience that, where you’re like, “Wow, this person gets it,” based upon what’s intriguing them? 

I mean, yes and no.

Um, I, I don’t really pay that much attention to people out there. It’s typically, like, as a whole if they’re impressed or they’re not impressed, I can tell. Um, but I actually did have a couple come up to me yesterday during meet and greet, and they’re like… They acted very, very impressed with everything that they saw, and then they told me they did agility.

So I was like, “Oh, okay. So you get it.” Makes sense. 

Yeah. Yeah. After they’ve spent months trying to get a dog to go through weave poles successfully. 

Exactly. Exactly. They get it. [00:17:00] 

That’s funny. So you’re at Dollywood right now doing a show. Mm-hmm. Uh, tell us, tell me about that. I say us. Jason’s not here today, so tell me about that.

No, you’re okay. Is that- Yeah … what? Five, six days a week? 

Yeah. So Dollywood is with Stunt Dog Productions. This is our third year doing it. Uh, it’s six days a week, and we have o- one day off. We get three shows a day, 12:00, 2:00, and 4:00. And the shows are about 35 minutes long. We’ve got three trainers, bunch of stagehands, um, and then we have, oof, at least 16 dogs, but we rotate those out between the three shows.

That’s a lot of dogs. Whose, whose dogs are those? 

So her name’s Abby Cline. She’s a phenomenal dog trainer. Uh, she does this full time, and so she’s, uh, uh, she’s known mostly in the Frisbee dog world. But she tre- teaches a lot of, uh, circus dog tricks, so, like, rolling on the barrels and stuff like that, which is super fun to watch.

But yeah, she has a lot of dogs, but when you do this full time, you probably should have that many dogs. I, I’m very part-time [00:18:00] now, so I’m down to four. 

So are your four in the show, or the ones in the show are all, right now are all- Yep … her dogs? 

Yep, yep. Um, so I typically have two to three dogs in each show.

Um, if I open with Frisbee, then I have the other two dogs in the show. But most of the time she’s doing the Frisbee stuff, and then I come out and do the trick stuff and the agility stuff. 

Okay. What, what breeds do you have? 

So I’ve got three Border Collies and a Golden. 

Okay. That- Yeah … that tracks. 

Yeah, the Golden is a field Golden.

Uh, so he’s got the energy of a Border Collie, but I think he’s got, like, one brain cell. So we joke in the show that if you, like, rub his brain cell a little bit he’ll make more brain cells, which typ- typically doesn’t work. He’s, he’s really dumb, but he does everything 110%, and typically it’s wrong, but he tries his best.

I would assume that audiences pick up on the excitement of the dog and the ha- the perceived happiness of it- Mm-hmm … and probably enjoy the show a lot more if- Yes … I say perceived happiness because of tail wags, whether the dog is- 

[00:19:00] Yeah … 

truly trying- Yeah … to show joy or is just busy and working. I, I would think the- Yeah

tail wag probably makes people happy. 

No, yeah, we get that comment all the time. People are always like, “The dogs look so happy doing this,” and we try and tell them like, “They’re really just playing up here.” If a dog doesn’t enjoy it, as we talked, just talked about, like, I typically place them in a pet home ’cause this is not the place that they wanna be.

Um, playing in your backyard Frisbee and then doing it on a stage are two very different things. 

Do you do a lot of Frisbee work? 

I used to, and I, I do still do it, I’m just not as well-versed as some. Um, my retired dog that lives with my dad, she’s 11 and a half now, and she placed eighth at a world championship with me.

So we, we, we were a pretty good team back in the day. Um, I do still have one Frisbee dog. His name’s Hawkeye, and he’s, he’s amazing. He, he loves it, and he, he looks really flashy, and he’s fun. Um, but I’m, I’m ma- m- mostly trick related. 

Okay. Obviously there’s, there’s so many types of dog training, right? And you mentioned, uh, quite a few [00:20:00] types earlier as well, and protection and, and many other things.

When it comes to trick training and, and dancing, how do you feel like that ties in to pet dog training? So people… Do you do any of that anymore? 

I do. Yeah. Okay. I try not to ’cause I don’t like it. Um, but yes, I do. Um, I tell people that even just teaching your dog to spin in a circle, that’s it. Just use the food, spin in a circle, get a treat.

Um, dogs don’t know how to learn, as we know, but the average pet person thinks that dogs just come wired, and they know what a treat is, and they know how to sit, and it’s super easy. Um, I think that focusing on any sport, whether it’s barn hunt, uh, fast cat, dock diving, agility, anything, um, helps build that relationship, helps build that focus, and teaches dogs how to learn.

Um, I really, I really think that just the average pet person should do something with their dog. Um, like I said, even if it’s just spinning for some food, I think it makes a big [00:21:00] difference. 

So when you said you don’t do much pet dog stuff anymore ’cause you don’t truly enjoy it, what… I guess why is that, and why do you enjoy what you do so much more?

I just think it’s boring. I don’t, I don’t like obedience. Um, like, when I’m training a service dog, there’s a lot more involved. It’s yeah, I’m teaching the dog to sit there and do nothing and, uh, listen to commands and do disobedient intelligence and, like, all that stuff, but it’s a variety of things that keeps me in- interested and keeps the dog interested and engaged.

Um, teaching a dog to just lay on a cot and do nothing and kind of be a robot is just not my jam. Like, I do like the dogs to have personality, and, um, I want the people to have fun with them, too. So I’ve, I’ve trained a, a handful of performance dogs for other trainers and agility dogs, and I just think that that’s more fun, and it is kind of more rewarding in, in my regard.

I can understand that. And the, w- without getting deep in the weeds, I’m with you on the cots and [00:22:00] place command. That has become… And I’m not anti-place command, but that has become so overused and abused- Mm-hmm … over the last few years that it, it’s pretty wild. 

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I teach a lot of my sport dogs how to do it, because I think the art of doing nothing is incredibly important, and pet dog people need to know that.

Like, don’t take your dog for a five-mile hike every day and then complain that it’s got so much energy. Like- … work its brain instead, and, and do that kind of stuff. But yeah, I’m, I’m… I agree 100%. 

So what do you do the rest of the year? You’re at Dollywood for part of the year, and then what? 

So I do some small corporate events here and there, fundraisers.

And then, yeah, I just, I have private clients for a variety of different, I’ll call them sport dogs, because they’re not just pet dogs. Maybe active family pet, but they typically have some sort of niche behind them like Frisbee or, uh, agility or tricks or service dog, that kind of stuff. Um, I do… I, like, I, a good example is I have a, a board and train coming in [00:23:00] August.

My board and trains are a month, and this one’s coming because he’s a therapy dog, and she wants him to learn some tricks to do for therapy visits. 

That’s a wild board and train. So the main focus- Yeah … is tricks? 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, she said he chases cats too, which we can work that on. 

I’ve seen your cats.

You’ve got plenty of distractions to, to work him around. 

Yes. Yeah, we got three little furry monsters running around. 

You know, funny enough, when I have a board and train and the client seems like they might be difficult to impress or kind of a challenge, sometimes I’ll teach them a trick that’s completely unrelated, but so…

And I usually go with play dead, ’cause it’s so easy, right? And any dog can learn it quickly. And you wouldn’t believe, or you probably will believe, how often people are amazed by that. And you’re like- 

Mm-hmm … 

the leash reactivity is gone. That was so much more work. And then, but they’re amazed by the fact that you say bang- It’s like, oh-

and the dog, the dog rolls over … 

the dog doesn’t jump on people anymore. But yeah, you say bang, and the dog rolls over. Like, oh my gosh. 

[00:24:00] Uh-huh. 

That’s ridiculous. 

I’m a big believer of teaching a command, I’m sorry, a trick that’s right for the dog. You know- Mm-hmm … teach a lazy dog how to play dead. It’s so easy, right?

Yeah. And if you’re trying to do it quickly, the excited dog, teach him to spin, jump, or whatever else- Yeah … you wanna do. 

Yeah, totally. 

So you mentioned earlier you think it’s useful for all pet owners to teach their dog something. Can we just unpack that a little bit? So if you have- Yeah … a, a pet dog owner that their dog knows its commands, they’re not a terrible, lazy owner who’s trained them on nothing, so the dog is generally a good dog.

What’s the benefit of teaching them commands, I’m sorry, tricks, and then where would you start? 

Yeah. Um, so that’s actually a great question, because I, I helped develop the number one dog training app on iOS and Android. We kind of created a, a platform that dog owners can download this free app and earn badges and rewards for going through the list and starting from sit, down, stay, recall, crate training, and then [00:25:00] going to harder tricks like, um, uh, re- retrieving something or picking a sport from a list.

Um, just making it more fun and engaging for the owner ’cause we know that the dog’s gonna enjoy doing anything, literally anything. So just trying to make it more entertaining for the person behind it, um, was kind of the goal, and I, I think we did achieve that. Um, but yeah, ultimately it, it, it really is just…

I hope you can’t hear that. Can you hear that? Okay, perfect. Yes, go ahead. That’s why I have these on. Perfect. Um, I, I really think that just making it more fun for the person is kind of the ultimate goal because you can sit there and tell the owner that, “Okay, if you work on this five minutes a day with your dog, your dog’s gonna be more engaged and more happy.”

But I don’t think the person really gets the benefit of that. Does that make sense? 

So when, when you’re teaching them these tricks, is the goal to make the dog happier and truly i- and give them an outlet? Is it mainly just are you seeing it as bonding? Like, [00:26:00] what is the, the main thing in your mind, the main reason?

I think the main reason is just to create some sort of activity that they can do together that does improve their bond, makes the dog less bored. Um, it honestly can fix a lot of issues instead of taking them for a five-mile hike. Um, just doing something that can incorporate the dog and the person together doing it, um, instead of just like giving them a snuffle mat or taking them for a walk, just doing something more entertaining.

Are you overwhelmed trying to run your dog training business and market for it at the same time? Let’s be honest. Scaling isn’t an option anymore. 

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So you, we, as we talk about training pet dogs on tricks, I’m just curious, is there a big difference in your mind? So like my two dogs, one is high drive, super busy, loves to train. The other one’s lazier and would rather sit there and watch me train the other dog. Do you find it’s a lot more beneficial to teach tricks to high-drive, busy dogs, or are you doing, having clients do this with all dogs regardless of their personality?

I 

mean, I’m having them do it regardless of their personality, but even like if you have a really high-drive dog, finding what motivates them, treats or food, and then getting them to slow down and to use their brain and to think about things, I think that’s incredibly beneficial. I think that the average pet owner thinks that if they have a high-drive dog, they need to stay at their level, which I think goes back to the art of doing nothing.

Um, just teaching a dog like my golden, he, he does need those, um, exercises on, “Okay, we’re gonna sit here, [00:28:00] and we’re gonna do this, and we’re gonna do it slowly.” Um, and my border collies, they’re already thinking about what’s after that step. Um, so it depends on the dog, but for the most part, I think that it’s beneficial for all dogs.

So you made me think of this when you said your border collie and thinking of the next step. I, I’ve got a dog like that who’s a cattle dog. I, I mean, how often have you been working on something with your b- it doesn’t have to be a border collie, any dog, and had them figure out where you’re going with that based upon their history with you?

Like, you’re trying to teach them something new, and basically they’re like, “I got this,” way before you thought they would. 

Yeah. So I always tell people that if a dog has a big repertoire of behaviors, teaching some things can be very easy. Um, for example, if you’re teaching a f- a sit pretty foot stall, the dog should already know how to sit pretty regardless of, like on what.

So when you’re doing a foot stall, hypothetically you should be able to just cue the behavior and they’ll do it because they’ve already, they’ve already been trained how to do that. It’s just in a different context. [00:29:00] And with a really smart dog, with a herding breed, they should pick that up pretty quickly.

So I, I do think that having a big repertoire and being able to show them a lot of different things and different pictures and different situations definitely helps. 

And can you think of any times in particular wh- d- do you have any dogs that have picked something up faster than you thought they would or figured it out and know where you’re going with it?

Yeah. Actually, um, we talked about it a little bit, the chasing the tail trick that people just go crazy for. They think it’s adorable. Um, if a dog knows how to hold an object, I’ve showed the dog, like I’ve just picked up their tail and told them to hold it a couple times, and then backed up and then told them to hold it, and they would chase their tail and then stop and grab it because they’ve already had kind of that picture shown to them.

Um, so that, I, yeah, so it surprises me most of the time.

You know, every time I watch a trick dog routine, I get caught up in the creativity of it and thinking about [00:30:00] how long does it take to make this, to make it up in your mind? Regardless of training the dog, how long does it take to crea- And obviously the answer depends on the routine, but generally speaking, how long does it take?

How long are you in the design process of a routine? 

I mean, I would just say a couple of hours really. Um, for America’s Got Talent, my very, very first step, which the producers learned very quickly I had to do it this way, was I needed to pick a song. Once you pick a song, it’s, it’s very easy. It’s very straightforward, and it happens pretty quickly.

Um, so you pick the, you pick the theme, you pick the song, and then the rest truly just comes. 

Because… This is because your dog already has a huge number of tricks they understand. 

It’s true, yeah. Um, but you can typically take, like, lyri- song lyrics and piece things together that make sense. So yeah, if your dog already has, um, a couple hundred different behaviors that they can do consistently, that method of pick a theme, pick a song, and then go for it is typically pretty easy.[00:31:00] 

So a couple hundred is a big number. That’s a lot. That’s a lot of tricks. Do you have them written down? Do you have, like, a spreadsheet that you use, or is this just all in your head- It’s all in … and you’re just doing whatever? 

Yeah. No, it’s just, it’s up here. For Hero, I did have a list. Um, he was up to, like, 600 and something, which was wild, and he does have the Guinness World Record for the most tricks in 60 seconds, which was 72.

That’s a lot. I would have just… I would think you would forget about tricks. I mean, I guess I know I would, and I’m just even thinking we love to cook, and then all of a sudden I realize, I’m like, “I haven’t made that dish in, like, three or four years.” I just forgot about it, and, like, it pops into my head.

Does that happen with tricks where all of a sudden you’re like, “We haven’t done this in forever”? 

Yeah, or, or because I have so many dogs, I forget what a dog knows. I remember at Dollywood, I gave Joker a break, and I used Hawkeye for dancing, and I asked him to do something that he doesn’t even know what it is, and he just looked [00:32:00] at me like, “I’m pretty sure you think I’m Joker right now.”

Um, so yeah, I, I definitely forget either if they know something or if they don’t know it. 

So he didn’t offer some random behavior to see? No. He just stared? He 

just looked at me. Yeah. He was like, “Lady, what are you saying?” 

Do you have other dogs that would offer something random, or are they all at the point in training where if they don’t know, they’re just waiting until s- they hear something they do understand?

A golden retriever. If I said something that he didn’t know, he would do something. He’d probably just jump up and down, ’cause that’s his default. 

Okay. He’s like, “How about I do the one that I love?” 

Mm-hmm. Exactly. 

Well, let’s circle back to Pupper for a minute, and what, what I think is interesting… So I, you know, I don’t know much about Pupper, so I was googling it before, you know, we did this, uh, this interview, and I was just asking, like, what methods does Pupper use, force-free, balanced, whatever.

And it was [00:33:00] telling me force-free, and it was saying the owner or founder may not be force-free, which it’s, like, the way that Gemini and these AI tools give information now is just bizarre, ’cause I think it used the word rumor, which is, like, a really strange thing for Gemini to be telling me. But tell me about yourself.

Are you force-free? Are you balanced? Uh, where, where do you stand on that, and how do you think that plays a role in your training? 

So I tell people that I just train the dog that’s in front of me. Um, as we’ve discussed, like, a lot, I train fun things. I don’t think that there’s this place for an e-collar or prong collar in training agility or dock diving or tricks.

Um, if you have a reactive dog, which I don’t specialize in reactivity, I would need to work on that, um, then there is a, a time and a place for tools. Um, but for me in particular, I just, I train the dog that’s in front of me. If a dog needs something, then I will go above and beyond to make sure that they get what they need.

But for the most part- A tug toy and some food will be just fine. Um, for Pupper, Pupper is [00:34:00] force-free. Everything within the app is very fun, very positive. We did get some backlash from two people. The, the app has over two million downloads, but two people, um, had issues with how we train leash, uh, pulling, leash pulling on Pupper.

So we have a lesson pack and a master class, and both of those uses slip leads, which vets use slip leads. If you’re in a car accident and somebody has to come and get your dog, they use slip leads. So teaching a dog how to turn on and off pressure and giving, giving the owner a tool that they can use to walk their dog properly, um, two people didn’t have, uh, good things to say about that.

So we- That was 

not force-free enough for them? 

Co- Correct. Or whatever. They actually s- they specifically said it was not force-free, and it causes the dog discomfort. So, um, that is the only thing in Pupper that we have gone back and forth about re-filming using a harness, um, or a Gentle Leader. But at this time, it is still in the app, and [00:35:00] two people didn’t have, uh, nice things to say about it.

Well, you can’t please everybody. And you know, and obviously you, you need to, you know, market to your core audience, whatever that happens to be. But you go to harness, and I wonder if you’re gonna have a lot more people that are complaining where they’re like, “This doesn’t work.” 

Or not. Yeah. We’ve had more people say that that has helped them than not, so.

Okay, so Pupper is basically force-free y- or is force-free. Um, I, I would call a slip lead if you’re motivating all with food, and there’s no actual corrections. That sounds pretty force-free to me. Uh, you’re … When you were saying when it comes to treats, you don’t believe e-collars or corrections. I’m sorry, I said

I meant to say- You said treats … tricks. I think I might have said treats. Treats and 

tricks- When it comes to- … works together. It’s okay. 

When it comes to tricks, you don’t think e-collars or any corrections have a place, but when it comes to behavior mod, you feel differently. I 

mean, [00:36:00] behavior mod and safety. I mean, I think if you have a dog that is constantly chasing cars and is eventually gonna get hit by a car, then you should seek out a balanced trainer, and you should get the help that will give you results.

Um, I’m, I’m … Yeah, I’m all about working with the dog that’s in front of you, and that’s coming from somebody that owned a dog for 11 years who wanted to kill other dogs. She could go out and do a, um, NFL halftime show, and she, she could go out, and she could do a bunch of cool shit with other dogs around because she had that outlet.

But if she was just, like, at a brewery and a dog walked by, she’d wanna kill that dog. And I’ve learned over the years, like you do, you have to continuously learn. You have to think outside the box, and you can’t just stick to one thing for every dog because every single dog is an individual. Every single dog is unique and has their own little quirks and their own learning styles.

Yes, they’re, like, they’re dogs. We can read their body language and do all of that, which is very similar, but every single dog is their own [00:37:00] little individual person, and they, they need their own methods, in my opinion. Um, my golden, he doesn’t learn the same way that my border collies do. Like, I’m … He, he’s an idiot.

But, but he, he’s a good boy, and I do have to think outside the box, and I do have to do different things than I would do with the border collies. 

Yeah, I mean, different dog, different methods, for sure. Whether even if they’re all still force-free or balanced, whatever it may be, they’re gonna be motivated differently, but like you said, they also

I mean, he’ll throw other behaviors at you, and the others would just wait patiently until they- Yeah … figure it out. 

100%. Yeah, 100%. But yeah, I just think that it’s, it’s really It’s disappointing when you hear about trainers that, like, trash on other people that, because of something that they do, um, because every dog is different, and you don’t know, you don’t know anything about that dog or what, how they’re training or h- what they started or what they already tried.

Um, but for what I do, I mean, I’m looking out at my agility field right now. Like, [00:38:00] I- I’m very well-equipped for my niche and the sport dogs that I train, and that’s not really… Like, those methods aren’t really needed ’cause they’re just… They’re doing a fun game. It shouldn’t be… If, if it were to come to that point, then that dog probably shouldn’t even be doing that sport ’cause it’s supposed to be fun.

It’s not supposed to be like a, a battle. 

You know, to that point when you said it might, might not even be the right dog, I had a client years ago who worked at a really well-known, um, aquarium, so a world-renowned aquarium, and she worked, trained a lot of the animals. And she asked me, like, w- was, like, pushing back a little bit nicely saying, like, “I’m surprised that this, the methods aren’t force-free,” but her dog was a boxer mix with reactivity.

And my question was, “You know, the animals you have at the aquarium, if they were aggressive, what would you do with them?” And they’re like, “Well, we just wouldn’t use them.” I’m like, “Well, that’s your answer right there. Do you wanna use this dog in your daily life and have him as a [00:39:00] pet or not, right?” And then it, it was like a light bulb went off in her mind where like, “That’s right.

Like, we’re not just teaching him something cute and fun right now. We’re trying to teach him not to bite-” Yeah … every single dog that walks by and not… We can’t fix everything with motivation.” 

No, and you can do a lot, and sometimes it might take years, or you can just do it once and be done with it. 

Mm-hmm.

And, like, I follow- Of course … a lot of trainers online, and there’s, there’s quite a few that they rehab, like, super red line dogs, like almost as bad as my female that I have. And it is so fun for me to watch. Like, I’ll never do it. I don’t, I don’t wanna, don’t even wanna touch that. But it’s cool to watch them take that dog from pretty much being euthanized to living a very, very fulfilled and, like, normal life.

I- I’ve always just thought that’s incredible. 

Absolutely. And if being in the dog world, I don’t know how much time you spend on social media, but it’s always crazy, and the last week has been no exception. The amount of people [00:40:00] attacking each other and- 

Oh, yeah … 

camps arming up. It’s, it’s wild. 

Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

It’s… I feel like it’s just as bad as when I first started. Like, it’s, if anything, it’s worse, honestly, ’cause social media’s blown up since then. Um, but yeah, you, you can never do anything right, and you can’t please everybody is kind of the, the motto that I, I now live by. 

Yeah. Do you get any of that? Or, I mean, I, I’m assuming you must get a little bit, but I would also think most of what you do is not controversial for the average trainer.

I feel like trainers are the worst a- as far as attacking people. Does that blow back at you at all? Oh, no. 

I’ve, I’ve gotten a ton over the years. Um, everything from the people I associate with, the people I dated, um, some of the dogs that I’ve placed or trained. Uh, it’s, it’s a lot, and I mean, I am, I, I’m better than I used to be, but I still get online and I say things.

If I see something that isn’t right, or I see someone training something that is very inappropriate the way that they’re doing something, like, I’ll [00:41:00] say something. I, I, I know that I’m right, so I’ll say something. Um, but at the end of the day, like, you really have to take everybody’s piece with a grain of salt, because they’re not over there with a bunch of clients or touring or working at Dollywood.

They’re probably living in their parents’ basement with a couple of dogs. So at the end of the day, you can say whatever you want online, and you can cause a ruckus, but It is what it is. Um, I don’t remember exactly what year or how old I was. It had to have been, like, 10 years ago. There was a very big, um, like, a slander thing that people were do- uh, doing for me, and they contacted every single event I had booked, every sponsor I had, um, every show I had.

Like, they had… They contacted everybody, and I lost sponsors, and I lost events because they couldn’t handle the backlash, and it was over, like, fake news. It wasn’t… Uh, they said that my, my dog that I did America’s Got Talent with, that he had hip [00:42:00] dysplasia, and I was forcing him to work, and it was… There was a…

Oh my gosh, there was a laundry list of things that these teenagers were just throwing at everybody. Um, and at the end of the day, like, some- sometimes it’s… Like, all that noise works, but most people see right through it, thankfully. So, um, you kinda just have to keep living your life and doing your thing, and the right people will, will be behind you and follow your back and all that stuff.

I would assume having sponsors makes everything a little more challenging because now you have someone who might, even if they say, “Hey, we believe you, Sarah, but we’re still going to make a change, and here’s why.” Mm-hmm. It’s… That does seem like an extra level of difficulty. 

Yeah. No, it definitely sucks. Um, I had a lot stand by me, but yeah, there were two that, that backed out even though, like, I could show evidence and proof that it was bullshit.

Um, and they basically just said they couldn’t handle the negativity. 

And your type of training seems so [00:43:00] non-confrontational that I’m surprised, and if you don’t wanna get into details, feel free to say no, but, like, why were these people so up in arms? What was their issue? 

They’re jealous. 100%. I mean, that’s, that’s typically why a lot of people do what they do is jealousy.

They’re unhappy. They wish that they could do those things. They wish that their dog was better. They wish that they were more talented. Uh, I mean, back in the day, I put in a lot of time and a lot of effort into my dogs, and I still do, but I just… I don’t do it full time for performance aspects now. Um, but yeah, I mean, it…

There’s talent, and then there’s putting in the effort and putting in the time. So it’s, uh, it’s just one of those things that you have to kinda go, “Well, don’t need that noise,” and just move on. 

Agreed. All right, well, switching gears a little bit, so when you’re spending time on social media or talking to trainers in general, [00:44:00] what is something you think the average trainer could learn from spending a little more time teaching tricks, dancing, whatever?

Anything you see that you think people could learn? 

Well, I mean, it, it, like as a trainer watching those things? Yeah. Yeah. I think that every trainer needs to try something that they’re not used to doing. Um, whether that’s teaching a dog to retrieve an object or hold an object or go onto s- go onto like a place cot and do a behavior from a distance.

That not only pushes them as a trainer, but it teaches them patience, teaches them different ways of like free shaping and all of those different methods that the average person that’s doing like pet dog training doesn’t really need to know. But I think that all of that helps, and I do think that that is why I’m successful because I’ve dipped my toes in almost everything and I’ve spent a lot of time processing and figuring out how to t- do those different things.

Um, it helps me and, uh, [00:45:00] you, you could give me just some random dog and I could probably figure out what they would be good at, what motivates them, and teach them a couple things in just a couple sessions. And that doesn’t come with like just doing one thing. That comes with years of practice and years of training different types of dogs to do different types of things.

So I really do think it’s super beneficial for people just to dip their toes in something and just try it. 

Getting out of your comfort zone. 

Yeah, exactly. 

So you mentioned free shaping. I’m curious, when you’re training a dog on a trick, if you could just dive in a little bit, how are you doing that? Are you free shaping or are you doing something else?

So there’s sometimes, uh, it really depends on what I’m working on that I’ll do the free shaping methods, but- Oh, boy. All the cat feeders just went off, so they’re probably gonna lose it at the door. Um, my, my whole thing is, um, luring. I lure everything. Um, a lot of people don’t like that. Just like I lure weave poles and, uh, you tell that to an agility person, they’re like, “Why are you doing two-by-twos?”

Because it’s faster. No, it’s not. It’s [00:46:00] not as effective. How I do it is. Um, so I do– I think that over the years I’ve been able to come up with, um, different methods that work for different things, and I think my specialty is being able to fade out a lure, which is very hard. 

Can we unpack that a little bit?

So I would love to start with, you mentioned you have people that are unhappy with how much luring you’re doing, which I find shocking. I, I would think when you’re trick training, who would care? So I, I’m curious to, uh, dive into that- … a little bit, and then- Mm-hmm … but I’d also love to hear about, uh, your thoughts on fading the lure.

Yeah. I mean, I think that people, again, they just get upset because they can’t do it, which is fine. Um, but my example that I’ll use is weave poles because I was just talking about this with a different trainer. Um, I, I have lured weave poles, I’ve lured weave poles forever. I’ve trained several dogs now, and it’s always been very consistent.

Um, their entries are perfect. They’re fast, consistent. Um, and I made a reel about how that’s the best method, and it gets the [00:47:00] best results. And I think it just triggered a lot of people that don’t think that way, ’cause everybody thinks differently and everyone has their different methods that work for them and the dogs that they train.

Um, but I don’t know. I just think over the years I’ve gotten very good at fading the lure and being able to put that pressure on the dog to make the decision of doing the right or wrong thing. Um, ’cause with me, like, I’ll lure the weaves a couple sessions and then the next session I won’t lure at all, and I’ll just use some body pressure.

And then I’ll reward when they make the right decision. Um, but I think that a lot of people get stuck. They don’t want the dog to fail. They don’t want the dog to make any choices. Um, and I really think that when the dog makes their own choices, they learn quicker. Um, and that’s– I’ve seen that with a lot of different behaviors, just, like, giving them a second and just seeing if they make the right choice.

And if they make the right choice, they get a jackpot, and then they’re probably gonna make the right choice again. Um, so ve-very, very basic dog training stuff. Um, but I, I really think that all of that makes a difference. 

So what happens if they make the wrong choice? [00:48:00] You’re fading the lure and- Try again

you’re asking them and they don’t do it, then what? 

Just try again. Nothing happens. There’s no consequence. Like, what, w-why, why would there be a consequence? It’s just we’re teaching something fun. You wanna make the wrong choice, well, try again, and the chance of you making the right choice are very high.

And I’m assuming all the dogs you’re using are highly motivated, so there’s the consequence of they’re not getting whatever’s rewarding to them. Yeah. Praise, treat. 

You’re just gonna withhold, yeah, withhold the reward. Yeah. 100%. 

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Any of your dogs get frustrated when it’s withheld? 

Yeah, so I’ve… None, none of the dogs I have now, um, I’m trying to think of… Like, I’ve never had any demand barking. I’ve never had any… Like, with this kind of stuff, they typically all shut down. Um, I think the only thing I’ve ever had happen is I trained an agility dog, I don’t know, six months ago, and she was very fearful of the teeter, and it took me four weeks on a miniature scale teeter, and I had to think way outside the box on, like, things to get her to kind of get over it.

Um, but once she got over it, I could take her to any agility place, and she would bang that teeter all day long, and it was… You wouldn’t even know that she was so fearful. Um, but yeah, I, I think that just fading the lure and adding that pressure, there’s… It’s, it’s an [00:50:00] art of how you do it. It’s kinda like a dance.

So we’ve covered a l- a lot of ground. Anything you wanna make sure that we cover, that we spend a little bit of time talking about? Anything you’re really interested in that we haven’t discussed? I 

mean, I don’t think so. I, I think we definitely covered a whole bunch of things that, um, a lot of people, uh, they’re probably too scared to ask me about.

Um, so yeah, no, I think that we covered a lot, and I mean, I hope that the takeaway is that every trainer should take a second and just try something new, whether it’s a sport, pick a sport, any sport, and just try it. Um, or if it’s a trick, just picking a trick and saying, “I’m gonna teach this dog how to do this trick no matter how long it takes.”

I think that that’s beneficial for not only the, the dog, but also for you as a trainer. 

I think what can be challenging for a lot of pet dog trainers is that very often we’re highly limited by time. 

Mm-hmm. 

W- with, with the client dog, right? And then to think through, is this worth it? And I’m not saying it’s not, but is it worth it?

Is this [00:51:00] the best use of the time with what someone’s- Mm-hmm … paying right now? It’s true. Should we be doing something else? Or even worse, forcing it, right? Mm-hmm. And trying to make the dog do something quickly ’cause you’ve only got X amount of time. And I, I know that’s a struggle for a lot of pet dog trainers.

Yeah. I mean, I’ve actually talked to a lot of, um, pet dog trainers about their timelines ’cause there’s some that do, like, two-week board and trains, and I couldn’t, I couldn’t imagine. I only offer a month. Um, I, I couldn’t see it… H- I think I would go nuts just having that short of a timeline to train something.

Um, but I don’t know. At the end of the day, if you’re training basic obedience, it’s also good to give the dog a break. Like, buy a small little kiddie tunnel and just train each dog to go through the tunnel a couple of times independently, like, doing something that’s kind of a break from the boring obedience, ’cause if it’s boring for you, it’s boring for them.

No, 100%. I have a lot of my clients order kits, uh, little agility in a bag kits from Amazon, and I am not… And, and, [00:52:00] and I tell all of them, “I am not an agility instructor. I couldn’t even tell you all the rules and scoring from agility. It’s just not my thing.” But I’m good at motivating dogs, and I’m good at working with dogs, and we’ll do- You know, they’ll have the, you know, they’ll have a tunnel, they’ll have a chute, all of those things, and it’s a lot of fun.

And what I’ve seen is so useful is it gets kids excited to work with the dog, and we can sneak in training that they don’t even realize they’re doing, and the dog doesn’t even think about, and we can use… And now this would be terrible, I’m sure, for general, uh, agility purposes, but we can work on our leash skills, we can work on down, stay, come, as we’re doing the agility, and the kids will have a blast while they’re working the dog.

Yeah, no, any impulse control is amazing to, to do around agility equipment, ’cause that’s the last thing you wanna deal with, is a dog that loves to do it but won’t sit, down, or stay while it’s there. So I think that’s fantastic. 

Well, thank you very much for coming on. This was a lot of fun, and I wish I could see you in the next month or so, but [00:53:00] unfortunately I’m gonna be at Dollywood a couple days after you’re done for the year.

So un- unless you extend it. 

No, I, yeah, I don’t have that kind of, uh, power sadly. 

Hey, I… How did I not ask this? Have you met Dolly? 

No. No, I haven’t. 

What? 

We are trying so hard. It would be bucket list achievement if we could meet Dolly Parton, but no. Maybe if we get booked again next year, but as of right now, she’s…

I think she’s coming for the grand opening of their new ride, but that’s gonna be in August, I think, so. We’re just gonna miss her too, sadly. 

Yeah. How often does she go to the park? Do you have any idea? 

I’m gonna say probably only a couple times a year. I bet you it used to be more back in the day, but I think she only comes for, like, big ribbon cutting things.

Okay. I’ve talked… I’ve… A few friends have seen her there, but then you have no idea, do they just get, like, the one day a year she was there, or is she there pretty frequently? 

Yeah. 

We always keep our eyes peeled. 

I think she goes for, like, the park, like, the grand park opening [00:54:00] for the summer or the f- like, for the year, ’cause there’s, like, a parade, and I’m pretty sure she’s in that every year.

But no, she’s not gonna be there when we’re there. 

Well, enjoy the rest of your summer, and good luck, and I wish I could see you there, but maybe next year. 

Maybe next year. Thank you so much. 

All right, thanks Sarah.