Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. 

Yeah, man, I’m excited for this conversation. Well, why don’t we start with, I’ll let you introduce yourself, ’cause I, I, I gave your name my, my best attempt, but I know I can’t give the same flair you do.

Can you introduce yourself? 

Yeah. Well, um, my name is Darshan Eran. Um, I’ve been in the wo- in the dog world pretty much since I can remember. Um, my dad is a dog trainer and a veterinarian in Mexico City, and I was pretty much raised between dogs and dog training. Um, I’ve been professionally competing… Well, professionally.

I’ve been competing in French ring since I was 10 years old. Um, and I, uh, I’ve been a dog, a professional dog trainer since my late teens, maybe early 20s. I, I became a dog trainer, uh, and at first with my dad. I worked with him for about maybe 15 years, something like that. We worked together as partners, and then I moved to the States in 2016, um, started my own business here, and now I live in California, where I run a dog training business where we do anywhere from puppy raising to behavior modification cases, service dogs, service dog training, basic obedience, advanced obedience, all of that stuff.

Um, and I also run a French ring club, which French ring is my big passion in life. Um, and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve competed for quite a long time. Uh, I’m currently the, me and my dog, his name is Pacheco, we’re the 2025 Ring 3 regional champions for NARA, which is the North American Ring Association, and we’re getting ready for, for this year, competition’s coming soon in October and November, regionals and re- and nationals respectively.

That’s awesome. Congratulations. 

Thank you. Thank you very much. 

So I’m curious, man, most people, so many dog trainers say like, “Hey, I grew up with dogs. I’ve always loved dogs. I’ve always worked with them.” But you’re the first who said, “My dad was a professional dog trainer.” So that’s interesting to me. I’m just curious, what did he do?

Like, what kind of training? What did he focus on? 

So the funny thing about this is when I was born, my dad was not yet a professional dog trainer. When I was born, he was a veterinarian, right? And he was work- he was working on clinics and stuff like that, and he was on a point where he was like, “You know, I’m, I’m tired of working in a building.

I wanna be more outside.” And he was doing f- uh, dog training as a hobby. And then right in that, in that, uh, time in life, he decided to stop working in clinics, and he decided to became a professional dog trainer, which I just… I have a son, an eight-month-old son right now, and I can’t imagine taking a decision like that with my baby right now and change my career.

Um, so in that same year, French Ring arrived to Mexico. Uh, in 1985, French Ring arrived to the States, and through the group of people that my dad was training with, French Ring was brought to Mexico City. And they started and developed the first French Ring club in Mexico, which is named Club Ring Sport de Mexico.

Um, and to the date, that’s the club that my dad is president of and is the main coach of. So I was pretty much born and raised around it. Um, I can remember when, when French Ring first started in Mexico, there was, like, a big rush for it, and people was bringing people from France to give seminars every six months.

Every year, somebody new will come, right? Well, my dad saw that I love this so much, and sometimes he will, he will be nice enough to be like, “Hey, you don’t need to go to school these next couple days. We’re gonna go to the seminar,” right? So I was this little kid, maybe five, six, seven years old, you know, just watching and listening these French guys, and I was, like, amazed about what the dogs could do, you know, and all of that stuff.

So that’s where the passion sparked for me, and, and I just became, became a big passionate about the sport, and that brought me into dog training and learning more about what’s really dog training. 

That’s pretty cool. So if, if you had to name one thing your dad taught you as a kid about dogs that’s really stuck with you, what would it be?

Huh. There’s, there’s many, there’s many lessons there, but I will say one of the biggest things and, and to the day that I, that I admire, and not just about dog training, but about life, is just be honest with what you’re doing, right? And be honest to the dog and, and fairness about it. I think, I think it’s something very, very important as far as dog training to not just go through the motions.

You gotta understand what’s happening back there and, and work, work with the dog that you have in front of you. He always had this phrase that said, “A good trainer is not the one that can make every dog work the same way. A good trainer is the one that works with the dog in front of them.” Right? And, and there’s no, like, a one-size-fits-all for dog training.

Every dog needs a different approach. Every dog needs a different way of engaging, different motivations, and stuff like that. So I always said now that s- dog training systems, they sell seminars, they sell workshops, but for me, there’s not a dog training system. Yeah, I have my ways into how I do things, but at the end of the day, I’m gonna be able and I’m gonna try to adjust my ways to the dog that I have in front of me, and what, what are the specific needs of that dog 

I think that’s, that’s some good information there, and I’m intrigued that, you know, the, the, the way people see old school training was very much one size fits all, right?

And I think we’ve kind of- the s- the industry’s evolving quickly, which is great, but to hear that your dad was a proponent of that, you know, years and years ago is pretty neat. 

Now, don’t get me wrong. My dad was pretty, pretty, pretty old school training base, right? And that’s how I learned. And- Yeah … and, and yes, even, even though his, his, his way of focusing was like, “Let’s work the dog in front of us,” but the techniques and the knowledge back in the day were, were not like modern dog training, you know?

He, he was always fair to dogs. He was always, like, building relationship before you can actually get the dog to do something, all that kinda stuff. But the level that we, that we c- have today as far as modern dog training, what we call modern dog training, it was not there yet, right? There was not a lot of people doing that, I imagine worldwide, let alone Mexico City, right?

Like, that was, that was not there. We were not using food for training. We will, we will sell ourselves as, like, we are not the trainer that is gonna make you have a cookie to make your dog things, do things, right? Like, we will, we will advertise like that, which now, like, I pretty much wake up and I have a treat pouch in my, in my belly, you know?

And I’m throughout the day with a treat pouch all day, because I use reinforcement a lot in my training. So, so yeah, the training, the training has evolved a lot. The techniques that we use has evolved a lot, and, and I feel like that’s, that’s where, that’s where we all need to try, to strive for. Um, actually, I just came back.

I was, I was in Mexico the last few days, um, and I was training with my dad, and, and I’m helping my dad to understand modern dog training, right? To understand the, the proper use of food and reinforcement in training, the proper use of aversive control, right? And, and all of these things that it’s, I, I’m sure it’s not easy for him, being so many years doing training in a certain way, to get out of it.

But, but the way, the, the fact that he’s, he’s open and he’s wanting to do this, it just, it just fills my heart. 

Yeah. How old is your dad, even roughly? 

Uh, he’s on his 70s. 

Okay. Yeah, that, I mean, that’s changing at that age, if you’ve been doing it for 30, 40 years, has got to be pretty darn difficult. 

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. That’s 

cool. 

Oh, yeah. But the thing, the thing is, like, when I, when I first started sending him videos, you know, about the training that I was doing nowadays with my dogs and, and things like that, it, it kinda, like, made the click for him, right? It was like, “Yeah, absolutely. This is what I want.” And then earlier this year, uh, we brought Michael Ellis to do a w- to do a seminar in Mexico, and that’s when he was like, “All right.

This is it. This is what is the good way to g- to train a dog. Let’s go for it.” So he got a puppy from me, uh, a little bit after that, and then ever since, he’s, he’s, he’s working on these, on these new techniques, right? I’ve been using food since 2008. I started using food and clicker, you know. Like, clicker was like, wow, what is this, right?

I had no idea back in those days. Um, but I can tell you very honestly that I didn’t really understand the true power and the true use of it until maybe 10 years ago, 12 years ago, you know? Like, 2014, 20- 2013, something like that. Before that, and I always, I always, uh, make this joke, before that I will train with friend training people, friend training friends, and we used to mock and laugh about markers.

Well, what, what we call today markers, right? And we used to say, like, “Oh, are you a yes people? Ha ha ha ha ha.” You know? Like, it was kinda ridiculous to us to think about those things. Well, nowadays, the dogs that I train, my personal dogs, they have over 15 markers, right? 15 different markers that, that, that helps me to create a clear communication with them, and it allows me to save those corrections and those situations where I need to get on their case through changing the expectation, through communicating more properly with them, to telling them when they’re doing the right thing but they need to g- remain in control, when they’re doing the right thing but they can burst out and, and give me all their energy, to tell them when the correction is coming and they can avoid the correction, right?

So markers has, have empowered my training so much and, and it just, it just, so funny for me to say that 15 years ago I was mocking about them, right? I was, it was just out of ignorance. That’s, that’s all I can tell you. I was ignorant about it. 

Well, let’s, 15 markers is a lot. Let’s, let’s spend a minute there just for fun.

You don’t have to name them all, but can you walk, uh, like, the audience through just some of your markers, maybe even some of the interesting ones? Like, clearly yes I’m assuming no, but what else are you using? 

So I have a terminal marker, which is what everybody knows as a yes, right? Dog commits to the behavior, they’re done, they can come and get their food, right?

I call that takeout to the general public. Just get your food and go. That’s it, right? You don’t need to do nothing else. Then I have a duration marker where I tell the dog that they’re in the right track, but they must remain in the behavior. Food is coming to them. The main difference between them is, yes, you go get the food.

Good, food goes to you, right? So that helps the dog to kind of remain under, under control and balance. Um, for the most, uh, average training in-person pet dog training, that’s more than enough. You don- you don’t really need more than that. The, the 15 markers that I’m telling you, it’s more for, like, high-level training, sport training, where you, you wanna modulate very higher emotions and very higher levels of arousal in a dog.

Um, so to cut them in two, I kinda use certain markers that are involving food, right? So the reward is gonna be food. And then other markers, they involve a toy. Food and toy, most of the time for the type of, of dogs that we work with, they have a different level. Usually toy is way higher than food. There are some dogs that, that are more balanced into that, but usually f- uh, toy is gonna be a lot more, uh, motivating for a dog.

So, um, through learning, and this I didn’t learn from French ring people, I learned all of this when I got out of my bubble of French ring, right? And I started learning from other sports, other people in other, other disciplines. And If the dog is expecting to be rewarded with a ball, and you reward him with a toy, that might be a defeat.

That might be an aversive to your dog. And even though you’re thinking you’re putting in something, you’re adding something that is good for your dog, your dog is like, “Fuck. You gave me something that I was not expecting. This is not as rewarding. Why am I gonna do it again?” Right? So through understanding that and understanding the emotions that that can create with our dogs, I, I created, like, a two different line in my, in my markers.

So some of them are gonna give you food, some of them are gonna give you toys. Um, and then I have the same, the same kind of basic, um, markers. Um, another, another marker that I, that I use a lot is a get it marker, where it’s very similar to the yes, but instead of chasing the food on my hand, you’re gonna chase the food on the ground, which puts the dog in a very prey drive, you know, very, very natural for a dog to chase something that they wanna eat.

Um, and then as far as the, as the, as the toy, I use very similar to the fir- the first three that I told you, and then I use condition markers, condition behavior markers. So you can access your toy, but there’s a condition for you to do that. Let’s say I’m work- I’m working on a heel position with my dog, right?

And one of the biggest flaws of, um, focus heeling is the dog starts forging, right? Because they, they build a lot of drive into it. Most of the time, we have our toy on our right side. The dog starts creeping over because they’re expecting the toy here. So this, this behavior condition markers tells the dog that you can access your toy, but to access the toy, you need to do something else.

So for example, I, I teach my dog a marker that I call pack. So pack, instead of my dog is here on a heel with me, and instead of the dog just, like, launching in front of me and coming and grab the toy, they will go behind me and grab the toy on my right hand. So this is gonna help me to avoid the dog to be forging, right?

It’s gonna put the dog more, it’s gonna balance him more where I want him. And then I also have one that he crosses in front of me, because with the last dog that I’m working with right now, my, my current competition dog, I did a lot of those in the beginning, and what problem did I have? Well, my dog was lagging a little bit.

Right? But with the, with, with the communication and the use of these markers, I was able to, okay, well, now you’re, you’re too reinforced behind me. Let’s reinforce you a little bit in the front. And that immediately changed the per- the, the perspective of my heeling, right? It pushed the dog more here. So when I’m seeing situations like that in my training, I can adjust in the way that I’m rewarding my dog, right?

Something that we call reward placement. The dog is gonna be drawn to where they receive their reward. So if I play with this, with this expectation of the dog, it’s gonna give more clarity to my dog, and it’s gonna avoid me to give unnecessary corrections, right? Um, now there is something that I’ve, I’ve learned, this is more recently, I, I’ve got more into the scientific part of, of the, of the training, right?

And Pavlovian associations, or classical conditioning, happens, and once that happens, it’s really hard to make a change through punishment, right? Because now those associations are created, and they become almost reflexes on dogs. And tell me how I’m gonna correct you having a reflex by snapping your face.

You’re not gonna stop doing that reflex. Like, you’re just gonna feel bad, and your emotions are gonna be bummed out about it, and our relationship is gonna be deteriorated, right? But that’s not gonna change through punishment. So by changing the expectation of what my dog is doing, I, I put that energy into where I want it, and I am capable of changing what’s gonna be the outcome and my behavior.

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Let’s unpack that a little bit ’cause I think that’s interesting. So l- let’s, let me just throw an example at you. Uh, we can make this a, a pet dog thing just so it’s simple. Someone has a dog that has been classically conditioned to get really worked up as soon as it goes in the yard. ‘Cause every time it goes in the yard, they’re playing ball, the neighbor dog’s there.

So eve- it even thinks it’s going outside, it’s stress whining. It’s, you know, all worked up. They’ve tried punishing it, and like you said, probably doesn’t work. You punish the whining. With a high drive dog, the, it’s not gonna fix it. What then? What would be your recommendation? 

Change the expectation, right?

And, and, and something important about this is it doesn’t take a few reps to do this. It takes work. It takes commitment. It takes to be, to be constant into what you’re doing, right? So I don’t know. A, a, an example like this, I will just be like, “Okay, let’s, before we go out, let’s put the dog into a different mindset.”

Food is a great way to start doing that, right? When the dogs are looking for a toy, right? I call that they’re doers, right? They don’t care about what’s happening. They just go for it, right? So let’s gear them down by putting them into food. Now, when they’re in food, I, in my experience, I’ve seen dogs that become a lot more thoughtful, a lot more reasoning into how they can get that reward from you.

So that will be my first way. Like, let’s, let’s, let’s downshift the dog. He’s running on, on five, right? Let’s bring him one to, let’s bring him down to first. Put him into food motivation, right? Start doing drills, and try to redirect that energy that he’s getting from the arousal of the context and what’s happening around him into the food, the motivation for the food.

And therefore, you can start doing engagement drills. You can start doing other stuff with the dog, right? Now, there’s gonna be dogs that they don’t even care for the food. We can use a toy as well, but we’re gonna use a toy in a different way, not just kind of like in a free way where you can just go and do whatever with the toy, but more into, like, an interactive way of playing with you.

I think playing, it’s one of the most underrated things in dog training, right? Like, before obedience, before your dog listening to you, you gotta develop a playing relationship. That’s gonna build confidence. That’s gonna build trust. And that’s gonna build this, this, um, dual relationship with the dog, right?

So just changing the expectation, that, that, that will be my main answer for what you’re telling me. 

Okay. I like that, and I like that you opened with the concept of this isn’t gonna be one or two or three reps, and I, I think that’s key for people to understand when you’re trying to change the way the dog feels in the moment.

It’s not two, three, or five reps. 

No. I mean, it’s, it’s said in, in, uh, literature that in order for a dog to establish certain behavior, it takes X amount of reps, right? In order to undo that behavior and build another one on top of that, it takes times three, right? So if you have a dog that has been doing that for two years, I’m not saying that you need six years to undo that, right?

But you need to put in the work to, to, to kinda, like, value that two years into the dog’s, into the dog’s brain, right? Start changing his expectativas into that context, ’cause dogs are very, very aware of their context and, and there’s many cues that will draw them to those situations right off the bat. So sometimes it might, like the first, the first sessions, you might not even get to go outside, right?

Right. You might just get to the door and just try to change the expectativa of the dog and try to bring his brain into a different expectation. You can even do it with a bowl of food, right? Like, there’s, there’s so many things that sometimes we get trapped into what we see online, you know, those flashy videos and stuff like that, and sometimes the most simple things, the most common ways into how we interact with our dogs, it’s gonna make that shift and gonna make the dog kinda, like, put more attention to us.

I always say that dog training is, is not really, is not really what we see in social media, right? Sometimes it’s a lot more simple. Um, I like this phrase from Michael Ellis. He said, “Dog training should be drama-free,” right? And, and it’s true. Like, you don’t need to have this and blah, spotlights and all of that stuff.

Sometimes just having the bowl of food in your hands is gonna make the work done for you. It should be simple … 

I’m, I’m shocked, Glenn, about dog training should be drama-free ’cause man, this is an industry that has a lot of drama. 

You’re telling me. 

Well, every- I like everything that you said there because even, you know, when you followed up with the idea that you might not get to go outside, and I counsel clients on that all the time, especially with really reactive dogs, that if your dog associates the front door, walking through the front door, they’re already ready to blow up, and then you go down the sidewalk and you’re just trying to tug back, there’s no way.

Yeah. There’s absolutely no way you’re gonna fix it. There’s so many little steps you have to take to reprogram that. So I like that you touched on that. 

Yeah, it takes, it takes time. And, and sometimes for people, it’s like they’re not committed enough, they want quick results, right? And, and I think that’s one of the biggest downfalls about the regular dog training.

Um, people wants quick results. And- Business owners, in order to get clients, they gotta do that, right? And, and, and you just gotta go with it. When I, when I first started doing board and trains here in the States, um, it was, like, kinda like the average to do a three-week program for basic obedience, right?

And I did that for a while, even though in Mexico I was always using four weeks or more for that, right? And maybe, like, a few years ago, maybe four years ago, I changed to four weeks, right? And the reason why I did that is because I know that I need more time with those dogs, right? I need to create that trust and that relationship with them before I’m able to do more stuff with them.

And some dogs, they’ve been pampered and spoiled their whole lives. They have no boundaries. They have no impulse control, right? So sometimes it’s really hard to get to those points, and when they get into a new environment, they’re super shut down. They don’t wanna do nothing, right? And then we’re just going through the motions and making dogs do things.

But you can see, you can see their body postures, right? Like, I was just watching some videos the other day, and somebody’s doing drills at Home Depot, right, and making dogs do things, and you can see the dog is clearly not having a good time. Like, the ta- the tail is tucked. They’re kinda almost shivering, you know?

And they’re just doing it. What happens there is that those emotions are gonna be now attached to your, to your behaviors, right? And then even though your dog might comply, but where is the animal welfare, right? Where, where is this going through? Like, my dog is gonna be emotionally, uh, compromised because yeah, he’s doing everything now, but he’s not really enjoying life, right?

He’s not having a good time. Like, those spray bottles, oh my God, like, I understand how in certain situations they can be useful, right? But for me, it’s always you gotta understand why this is happening, right? Your dog has a bad behavior or an unwanted behavior. Before you try to fix that problem, try to understand what’s creating that.

Where does your… where is your dog coming from? ‘Cause, ’cause the problem is not the behavior. The problem is the underlying factor that is showing the behavior, right? So if we’re capable of understanding that, and then we can address that, then you’re, we’re gonna have, one, a dog that is feeling better about what they’re doing, and second, we’re gonna have a, a longer-lasting training and behavior in your dog, right?

Because now they are comfortable doing what they’re doing. They’re not just being pushed to what they’re doing. Don’t get me wrong. I, I understand pressure, and I use pressure in my training. But, but I don’t, I don’t believe that pressure should be the only way or the first way to do things. And I always put this example to my clients, right?

Imagine you have a, you have a teenager, right, that wake up on a Saturday and he has plans to go have a weekend with his friends. And mom and dad tell him, “Guess what? You’re not going anywhere. You need to clean your room because it’s a mess. And until you clean your room, you can do, you can do something else.”

He’s gonna be mad. He wants to go out. He might do it, right? But how is he gonna do it? He’s gonna put everything under the bed. He’s gonna open the closet, shove all his clothes in there, you know, and just kinda like, “Okay, mom, it looks good. Let me get out,” right? Okay, he might got the result, right, but it’s not really what we’re looking for, right?

Besides, you have a teenager that wakes up on a Saturday, he looks at his room and he’s like, “Wow,” you know, like, “This is a mess. I really need, need to tackle this.” He starts cleaning, starts from the clothes, makes his bed, whatever. In the middle of it, he’s like, “Damn, this is really bad.” He brings all his furniture out.

He paints back his, uh, room, resets everything in a new place, and now the room looks pristine, right? And that’s because that decision came from within. He wanted to do that. He was not pushed to do that, right? And that changes a lot into how you operate things. So again, I, I understand pressure and I know that there’s a point in time where we need to use pressure in training, but this needs to be clear, and after there is engagement, there is passion for the behavior, and there’s clarity and understanding of what is, what they’re supposed to do.

Well, I’ve got three kids. Two of them are teenagers, and, uh, they certainly don’t want to clean their rooms, so maybe you and I need to talk later offline and you can, you can help me get there with them. 

I mean, I haven’t got there. My baby’s eight months old. Um, but maybe we can talk in 10 years And, and I can, I can tell you firsthand about it.

Um, but, but I mean, I, uh, this comes from thoughts as me as a person growing up, you know? And, and, and I can tell you, or I can feel that I, I understand dogs almost in a second nature way, right? Like, I’ve been around them for so long, I’ve engaged for so many years with them. Um, this is, uh, an, a story that my mom probably was not very fond of it, but my dad was.

Before I even say, “Mom and Dad,” I said the name of our dog, right? I was, I was talking to my dog before I said, “Mom and Dad.” So I’ve been, I’ve been connected to dogs my whole life. I’ve never had a time in my life where I have no dogs around me, and pretty much every activity that I do, it’s, it’s with dogs.

Well, let’s circle back then for a second to something you said about the, the, the cleaning the room. And you said that you want, you know, you’d want the kid to want to clean their room, for it to come from within. Can you translate that in, back into dog training? So you have a dog with whatever behavior, any- you choose, any behavior you’re looking to fix.

How are you trying to, uh, how are you trying to get the dog to actually make the right choice from within, rather than from, you know, being compelled to? 

Engagement, motivation, right? If I have a dog that is willing to look at me and trying to get something out of me, it’s gonna be a lot easier to teach them to do tricks, hard tricks, and whatever.

If I have a dog that doesn’t put attention to me and he’s just looking around, and everything in the environment is more exciting than what I can give them, I’m gonna have a hard time to teach them to sit, right? So engagement, understanding your dog’s needs, and being able to fulfill them, it’s, it’s gonna open the doors to do that kind of stuff.

So engagement is g- engagement is a word that I, I’ve been training d- dogs and competing for 30-plus years, right? And I didn’t knew that word until maybe 12 years ago. I didn’t even know what was engagement, right? We would just, like, make them do it. And yeah, I, I did have engagement with my dogs. My dad is always into building that relationship with the dogs.

But the way that I can build that engagement nowadays, it’s very, very different So yeah, I think engagement will be, will be the best, the best way and the best situation that I can tell you, you can get a dog to do whatever you want them to do. 

What about if you’re trying to get them to stop doing something?

Stop doing something? So we have different ways to get a dog to stop doing something. It depends on what’s the case and what the dog is doing, right? But most of the time, and this is a lot more recent into my dog training life, redirecting that energy into a competitive behavior that fulfill the dog needs, that is fulfilling the unwanted behavior, it’s usually the way to go.

I’m not saying it’s always the way to go. Uh, of course, punishment could be a, a good way to stop something. Like if a, if a dog is trying to eat somebody, of course there’s, there’s, there’s punishment that needs to happen, right? It’s not gonna be just like, “Hey, you have a cookie here. Don’t bite that guy,” right?

Um, I’m not, I’m not by any means into like, okay, let’s just use food for everything and that’s it. No. Um, but, but I can tell you that if you, if you are capable of creating a behavior that competes with what they are being fulfilled by the unwanted behavior, you are a very few steps ahead of the game, right?

And then once you have that, if you use punishment and corrections, absolutely. Now, dogs don’t wanna be wrong. You know? Most dogs, they don’t wanna be wrong. They don’t, they, they wanna please us. They’re the only species in this world that over thousands of years, they’re still around us. These guys, they’re here because they want food, and that’s it, right?

And, and yeah. They don’t have, they don’t have that connection with us. Even though some of them, they might be more connected. But dogs are the only species that create that real connection with us. They wanna please us. They wanna be part of our lives. So if we are capable of f- of fulfilling their needs, we are ahead of the game, and then punishment, corrections, and whatever else you can use to stop and mitigate certain behaviors, it’s gonna be a lot more effective.

But if the dog doesn’t care for me, doesn’t care for I, what I can give or say, the punishment is not really gonna do anything 

So with your pet dog clients, what percentage would you say are high-drive breeds? And, and you can ca- categorize whatever breed you want in there. And what, what percentage would be your average dog?

I’ll say maybe, maybe 50-50. Like, I get a lot of, uh, German shepherds, uh, Cane Corsos, uh, Malinois, of course, um, Labs, and also your average pet, Doodles, um, I don’t know, Great Pyrenees, uh, Huskies, you know, things like that. I will, I will say 50-50. 

So with what you were just talking about, about trying to kind of redirect into something they do want to do, do you find that easier or harder with a high-drive dog?

If you know where you’re tapping, it’s easier because they have the drive, they have the motivation. If you learn to play properly with them, and play can be roughhousing with you, play can be treat, play can be tugging, tug of war with a toy, you know, however you wanna call it. If you understand how to tap into those situations and make your dog play with you, you, you, you have a w- a, a, an easier way to do it with a, with a high-drive dog.

Now, the hard part with a high-drive dog is gonna be the impulse control, right? And the impulse control is something that you need to establish fairly soon with a, with a dog that is… Let’s talk about the dogs that we use for French ring, right? Like, we, we want, like, a top-of-the-line, high-drive dog that sees a prey and just wants to go for it, right?

So with those type of dogs, the problem that I, I, I’ve seen in the past, and I’m talking more about what I do in French ring, is that we used to crank them up so much, right? Bite, bite, bite, bite, bite. First six months of life, bite, bite, bite, bite, and they just go crazy about it. Well, now you need to put some control.

You need to have some outs. You need to, to bring the dog back to you. Well, now you tell the dog that now you don’t bite. Now you need to let go. Now you do these things, right? It’s a big shock for that dog that has been just go, go, go, go their whole life. So when you do that in, in, in, in old school training, we used to jank and crank, right?

Like, “Okay, I’m gonna teach you these through corrections.” Well, now it’s like a big confusion. Now you being the person that all of these months have making me go crazy, love these things, and now when I do these things, now you correct me. Now there is a big conflict there. There’s a big relationship downfall because they start losing confidence and trust in you, right?

So impulse control is something that you can start teaching since the early stages without needing to jank and crank on the dog. You can show little drills with food, with toys, where the dog learns to control those emotions. ‘Cause at the end of the day, that’s what it is. We’re trying to control the emotion in the dog, and we’re trying to bring them into a, the most clear mindset that we can for them to learn.

I think that is- Wow … that’s key, for sure. Do you mind walking through some of, some drills you like for impulse control? 

Um, yeah. Um, so I use, like, a closed fist kinda, kinda way, where my dogs understand that I have food in my hand. If my f- my fist is closed, you can’t be bugging my hand. You need to respect my hand.

If my hand opens, usually I, I hold food this way, right? If my hand opens, you can access that food. That’s kinda like the first, the first drill that I, that I can establish with my dogs. Um, and then throughout the years and through friends and mentors, I learned other techniques, like twister fingers. It’s another way of doing it, right?

Like, usually we teach dogs to drive into our hand and, and be pushy for that food, right? But also, I want my dog to be thoughtful in the way they grab that food, right? Don’t chomp on my hand. Like, be thoughtful in the way that you grab this piece of food. And this bring calmness, regulation, and, and, and a lot, and a very different mindset into how the dog is working, right?

Um, impulse control as far as, like, leave it something, right? Like, leave something. I, I teach a leave it command where if I tell you, “Get it,” which is my chase food command, my chase food marker, you go for it, right? And you chase that food. But if I say, “Leave it,” and I toss the food, you don’t go for it, right?

And, and most of the foundation of this, I drew it, I do it through positive reinforcement, right? I, I, I create a clear expectations for the dog. I- and this is very big, um, I like to break down things for the dogs, right? Sometimes we try to teach a behavior, and we try to start with the end picture, right?

And most of the time, that’s really hard for dogs, right? So what I like to do is I like to chain my behaviors. So I teach you little parts of it, and I down, down, uh, grade it, or I put it in a very simple way so that you can understand that, right? So in the beginning, I’m maybe not gonna toss that food for you because what’s gonna that, what’s that gonna create?

It’s gonna make you wanna chase that. Maybe I just put the food in the ground calmly, right? And I don’t let you take it, and then I pay you when you’re in behavior. And then I put another one, and then I pay you when you’re in behavior, right? And then little by little, I start dropping it, maybe from higher, and then maybe I can toss it.

But now the dog has this background, this history of learning and understanding that there’s no access to that. But I didn’t do it in the highest, in the highest level of arousal. I did it in a very calm level of arousal where the dog can be more thoughtful and can understand what I’m trying to get from them.

And then eventually, that’s gonna transition to a higher level of arousal. 

So are a lot of the impulse control games food-related? 

In the beginning, yes. In the beginning, yes. I, again, like I said, I, I grew up with the mentality of, like, you don’t need a cookie to make dogs do things, right? Um, so when I, when I found out that food was so powerful and, and the power that food can have into training, I, I am a, a huge proponent of using food.

Something important is the use of food with markers, right? It’s not just about the food. If you don’t have f- if you don’t have markers and clear communication with your dog, then yes, you’re gonna need that piece of food always in your hand. But if you have clear communication with your dog, you’ll be able to get rid of those, of those pieces of food because now the dog is listening instead of just looking for the goal.

They’re, they’re sign tracking versus goal tracking

Okay. Uh, I think, I mean, there’s, we could spend a lot of time on that, kind of phasing out the rewards. I don’t, I don’t know if we really wanna dive into that. Uh, I’m curious just to circle back to some things you said way earlier about, you know, you said ethical, and I think you said fair dog training.

You used the word modern dog training, and then we’ve talked a lot. I- I’m assuming all the stuff you’re talking about you would consider kind of this change to modern dog training. But how are you seeing French ring change over the years? I’m assuming you’ve seen a lot of changes.

This is, you’re, you’re hitting home on this one. Um, I’ve seen changes. For sure I’ve seen changes, but Honestly, it’s not there yet, as far as French ring goes, right? And as far as comprehension of behavior and regulation of emotions and arousal and all of that stuff, um, I will say that I don’t know if the majority, but there’s still a lot of old school training in a- in, in French ring.

Um, I, I wish, and it’s, it’s one of the things that I am trying to put out there in my workshops in, in these type of situations of podcast, to try to bring that awareness to people and, and to get them to understand that there’s other ways into teaching things, right? And like I said, when I, when I learned these things, when I, when I was, when it, it was brought to my eyes, it was not from French ring.

It was from IGP people, from agility trainers, from AKC obedience trainers, right? From behaviorist people, right? Where, where I understood that there’s not just one way to make a dog do something. There’s many other ways that we can create that, and we can help them to manage that arousal and those emotions, and it’s gonna, it’s gonna help you enjoy more of the training, but more so, it’s gonna make your dog enjoy training, right?

Sometimes I feel like in French ring, there’s a lot of what I call unfair corrections, right? We go back to these Pavlovian associations, right? Let’s talk about French ring and the stick. You know, we all use a stick, right? It’s a bamboo stick that rattles and makes some noise. So we make our dogs to go crazy with this, right?

Because we’re, we’re trying to create a good association to that stick and that barrage, that eventually it’s gonna create a barrier for the dog to go through the bite. The dog is gonna be hit in the, on, on their back with this to kinda test their courage and their character. So we make them go crazy with this, right?

But the Pavlovian association that creates this, it’s very high level of arousal, right? The dogs listen to this, and they go nuts. They cannot listen to nothing else, right? So what happens is that after we create this drive, now the sound comes, and we wanna correct the dog, right? And the dog is like, “How?

Like, I’ve been going crazy about this. I can’t stop going crazy because it’s classically conditioned to me, right? It’s just a reflex on me, and now you’re correcting me. Well, now I don’t like you. Now you’re not as fun as you used to be before because now you are an agguer. You are being unfair to me,” right?

But if we create a balance into that arousal and what that stick creates to the dog, but also we build some be- some impulse control, some engagement drills, some redirecting into other stuff- Then we teach the dog to be capable of doing those things, right? And something that I really like to do about this is when you’re working with food and with toy, like we talked earlier, we have different levels of arousal, right?

A lot of the times when people train with their dogs and they train with a, with a toy, they have a really hard time for the dog to then take food because now the dog is up here, right? They don’t know how to downshift, right? And this is the same perspective of your decoy, which is the toy, and you having a little tug or a ball on a rope trying to get your dog to out that decoy that is a million dollars for him, and you have a popsicle in your hand, right?

So if we teach our dogs to be able from the down, from, from, from, from the start, we teach them to be able to cope with that change, and not just cope with it, but enjoy that change because one takes you to the other, and the other one takes you back to the other, right? And it’s a give and take. It’s not I’m taking something from you.

It’s just a cycle. We’re trading something right now, but eventually you will get back to that. That helps so much. It, it really changes the whole game 

So, I, you know, I’m not involved in French ring, so correct me if I’m wrong here, but I would assume the change you wanna see is not going to happen unless the people that are training in the way you advocate are winning.

I, I’m assuming when the winners are doing this, you know, the best performers are doing this type of training, people are gonna be like, “All right, I’ll change because I wanna win, too.” Yeah. Is that a fair statement? 

I, I agree. And, and we, we saw this happening in Schutzhund, which is now called IGP, IPO, right?

Um, if you see the world championships in Schutzhund, I will say early 2000s, maybe late ’90s, you’ll see the same type of work that you see today in French ring, right? Dogs do the motions. They go through them, but not always you see a, a dog that is kinda like enjoying everything. Don’t get me wrong, there’s very good trainers out there that are doing this type of training, Mondioring, French ring, right?

Um, but it’s not, I will say it’s not the, the most common thing to see. Uh, so and that shift happened in IGP, and it took maybe 20 years to get where they are now, 20, 30 years. So yeah, it’s, it’s a mission. It’s a whole mission, for sure. 

How far away do you think French ring is from getting to the point where you’d like it to be?

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I wish, I wish that it was soon. I don’t know. Um, I can tell you that I, from, from my, from my goal, I’m trying to do as much and as best as I can to try to help with this.

And, and I predict in every workshop, in every training that I have with people, to try to bring that understanding, right? Are we teaching our… Are we training our dogs to comply or to understand, right? To comply, yeah. I can go to your house, bring a spray bottle, and make your dog stop jumping on everybody.

That’s gonna solve your problem maybe in a week, right? Your dog is not gonna jump on anybody. But how’s your dog is g- is gonna be feeling about this situation, right? What’s gonna happen? Where is the animal welfare about this? So, I don’t know. I wish, I wish to say five years, 10 years, hopefully. Um, but I don’t know.

I, I, I, I don’t see a lot of, of people predicting this in front training, right? It’s, it’s still a lot of, like, I will say a mix of old school modern dog training 

Well, if you’re right on your 10-year prediction, that could happen before your little one grows up to be a dog trainer, huh? 

I hope so. I hope so.

That’s the goal. I mean, I, of course, uh, having a kid and with the story that I come from, of course, I will love my kid to be part of French Ring and, and be a trainer, you know? And, and even at his age, I can see, like, he engages so much with the dogs, and I’m playing ball with the dog, and he’s cracking up.

He loves that kind of stuff, right? But I hope that happens, but if that doesn’t happen, it’s okay. You know? Like, if he doesn’t wanna be a dog trainer and he wants to go kick a ball and play soccer, it’s, it’s okay. 

As long as it’s dog training or soccer, as long as it’s one of the two.

You know, it’s funny. I’ve got three kids, and two of them want to be dog trainers, and I haven’t pushed it at all, and we’ll see what, you know, what happens lifelong, but two out of three. But I think they see that I love it, and, you know, when you watch your parent have a job that they really enjoy, and then you see your friends’ parents have jobs they hate, it, there’s, that’s gotta be a big part of it.

Yeah, and I think, I think you mention a very important part of that. Don’t push it, right? Like, again, it has to come from within. They will make that connection. They will see that through, through, through these examples in your house, out of your house, and, and if they like it, they like it, and if they do it because they like it, they’re gonna be so much better than if they get pushed into doing it.

Well, as I told you before, pretty much all of our listeners are dog trainers. So I’m just curious, what advice would you have for all the dog trainers listening? Could be related to dog sports or not really, world’s your oyster here. What would you say to them? 

Very simple. Always be a student. Never stop learning, right?

I, I used to have a very successful French ring club in Mexico. We used to train 20-some dogs Saturday and Sunday, you know, uh, winning, winning high-level competitions, regional competition, championship competitions, right? Like, it, it was a very big club in Mexico. And I thought I was a pretty good trainer, right?

Um, I always tell people, French ring teaches you to do French ring. Doesn’t really teach you to do- … to do training, doesn’t teach you to be a dog trainer. But the moment that I got out of my bubble of French ring, and I started learning from other people doing different training, doing different sports, and understanding how that could apply into the sport that I do, is when I felt that my training really went up level, right?

And thankfully, the results are there. Uh, so far this year, well, we’re, I’m regional champion with my dog last year. So far this year I’ve done, I think, four trials with my two dogs, all of them with my baby present, and they, all of them, they’ve been first or second place with this type of training that I’m telling you.

Uh, so I, I am a true believer of this. I’m not just talking this because anything, getting social media followers or nothing like that. I, I, I can tell you guys that always seek out for more. Always look out from what, where you are. Find good mentors. Find people that is willing, willingly opening their knowledge to you, and they’re giving you that, right, and they’re not just taking advantage of you.

And always be a sponge. Like I, like, like everything that I’m telling you right now, it’s something that I keep learning on a regular basis, right? Like, every day I’m listening to podcasts, I’m going and training with different people and trying to understand what is, how it’s done and how I can approach things differently with a dog.

So as much as you can think you know, never stop learning. 

What’s your favorite dog training podcast? 

Huh. I really like, I forgot the name Uh, Pat Stewart’s, what’s the name? The… Oh, my God. I can’t remember the name about it. The Canine, the Canine Paradigm. That’s, that’s, I, I really, I really like. Uh, Pat is, it’s also a very modern dog trainer and, and I, I agree with a lot of, of what he, what he talks and what he says there.

Cool. That’s a good show. 

Yeah, 

I might- 

And it’s, it’s all the way in Australia. 

I might do some editing to change your answer to Dog Pro Radio, but. 

You can, you can. 

It’ll be my voice. It’ll be like a whole different voice. “Darshan, what’s your favorite podcast?” “Dog Pro Radio.” 

Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s awesome.

If I’ve been honest with you, I, I haven’t heard your podcast. Yeah. I, I, I haven’t, I haven’t listened to it. Now that I know about it, I’m definitely gonna dive in and, and listen about it, for sure. 

Yeah, man. Uh, ch- I mean, check out the episodes. We’ve got a lot of good guests and talking about what, you know, their passion.

So it, it’s pretty cool ’cause it’s a show that’s really dedicated to the guest rather than, you know, the company or the organization or the host or whatever. Every single episode is a guest walking through what they do. So it’s, I think, kinda unique in, in that manner. 

Okay. I think you froze a little bit, but I think it was just on my end 

Yeah, recor- recording will be fine, but I, I was just saying it’s, it’s a cool show and we’re lucky to have amazing guests.

So when you see who all’s been on it, there’ll be a lot of cool stuff for you to check out. 

I will, I will definitely dive in, and I know you guys are gonna be in, uh, Newport- 

Yeah … 

soon. 

Yep. 

Um, yeah, that’s something that I’ve been looking forward to, trying to make my schedule and, and see if I can make it there.

Is, is there a way to go just certain days, or you gotta go, like, the whole time? 

You know, it’s a, a package price, but then, you know, of course, you don’t have to come each day. But yeah, you can come just, just for what you can make. And the first day there’ll be a science summit on Monday, which will be really interesting.

I know, I know Melanie’s gonna be there. 

Yeah. 

That’s, that’s top-notch information. Yeah. Melanie, Melanie is somebody that, that marries very well the scientific information with the dog training. 

Yep. So the science summit on Monday will be really, really cool, and there’ll be a Q&A and a round table. So if you’re able to make it for that, I definitely would encourage you.

Okay. I’ll, I’ll… I’m gonna, I’m gonna work on my schedule and, and try to make it there, and maybe we can meet in person as well then. 

Yeah, I’ll be there all week. 

Good. Good. Is it… It’s in Newport? 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. I’ll, 

I’ll try to make it. Awesome. Well, Darshan, thank you for taking the time.

Appreciate it. 

Thank you very much. I appreciate it as well.