Welcome to Dog Pro Radio Radio, big day with J Jack. Yeah, that was, uh, it was a pretty in depth conversation, so what’s up with no one telling me? My microphone was like five feet away. I realized that we, we could, we could hear it. I really did get that feeling where I looked around, I’m like, normally there’s a microphone in my face and I see it like, not barely with an arm’s reach.

Pretty, pretty good mic, I guess. So I’m usually like analyzing, like, should it be four inches from my face or three and a half? What’s better? So did we, did we get. Do we get ourselves in trouble? Do we, are we getting kicked off the board on this one or, or what’s going on? I don’t know. Or canceled for something, I’m not sure.

Yeah, he, he, he, he started talking about, um, some info that apparently is also gonna be shared at conference coming up and, um, yeah, we, we, we, we, we dodged that landmine for, for all this time. And then here we, here we go, stepping on it with Jay, so for sure. And then I asked him a loaded question, what is a pit bull?

Yeah, that’s one of my, that’s one of my favorites. And that turned into a whole conversation right there. Yeah, that was a deep dive for sure. He, he definitely knows a lot about the American pit, bull terrier, Uhhuh, and the AMP staff. So definitely, uh, wealth of knowledge on that. He’s been, been around him for a long time, so Yeah, for sure.

And overall, I thought it was interesting talking through his methods and you know, how he uses his dog sport to make. Just life between a dog and their owner better. ’cause that’s something, and this is not like to crap another dog sports, but often I see it’s about having fun, right? And doing something.

But it’s not focused on how do we make life better or more harmony between dog and owner. I. I didn’t expect to dive so deep into that on here. So that, that did surprise me. And I think it was pretty awesome. Yeah, it was, it was, it was interesting. And I’m, I’m super excited to see the dachshunds and doodles take over that dog sport as we talked about ’em.

So, man, the dachshund are running up a wall biting. I mean, that is, that is their thing right there. They are tenacious. I’ve, I’ve owned quite a few over the years and they Oh, have you can be. Oh, oh yeah. Yeah. I’ve, I’ve had several that were rescues and, and, and one we picked up, uh, years ago. Don’t have one now, but we’ve had one for a long, long time.

And, uh, they’re, they’re definitely a special little breed. I. They are. I’ve got some Ds and scars on me, and some cocker spaniel scars. I mean, between those two breeds, they don’t mess around. Yeah. Just, you’re just missing a couple Chihuahua and Yorkie scars. Yeah. And you’ll be, uh, you’ll have a full set.

Luckily, they’re little. Can you imagine an 80 pound dachshund coming at you? Yeah. That would be, that’d be bad business. Well, this was a fun episode, everyone listening. Definitely drop comments. Let us know what you think. I, I think it was, to me, pretty illuminating and eye-opening and give, you know, gives you a really, an understanding of what Jay’s doing, which not just, you know, not just telling us what he is doing, but the why he’s doing it to me, it was really interesting.

Absolutely. And just a reminder, guys, we’re, we’re on YouTube. Uh, we’ve got our own space there. Um, seems to be getting some, some pretty good engagement, but we’re also on Spotify and you can listen to us, uh, early if you subscribe to us on Spotify. They’re getting launched actually an entire day, early on Spotify.

So, uh, we’re seeing new folks show up over there, so we’re super, super happy to see that for sure. And I just can’t believe it was a two hour episode and Jay didn’t swear a single time. Right. That was amazing. That is, that is self-control at its best. Absolutely. Who saw that coming? Yeah. Don’t play this in the car with little kids sitting in the back seat.

I guess I should have been clear. That was sarcastic. Yeah. So, yes. Yeah. Not suitable for children, but he, but he, for, he forewarned us up front, so, and now you’re getting your warning up front. Yeah. Well, enjoy the episode, everybody. Yeah. Are you overwhelmed trying to run your dog training business and market for it at the same time?

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Welcome to Dog Pro Radio. Today we’re talking with Mr. Jay. Jack. Jay is a former MMA fighter, uh, Brazilian Juujitsu black belt. I don’t know all the terms. Triple black belt, quadruple black belt, who knows It’s nonsense. And is a, so like that, that kind of certifications and stuff. I’m like, ah, whatever dude.

Like prove, prove your point in the, in the field, you know what I mean? Like I don’t want to hang it on a belt. But yeah, I got like four stripes on that thing now. Well, on that, no, you’re gonna have to prove it ’cause Jason said he wants to fight you. So Nice. How’s your shot, dude? I’m old. I’m fat. I got a battle lag, dude.

A couple of surgeries coming, you know what I mean? Dude, now’s the shot. Now’s your choice. Uh, Jay is also the founder of GRC Dog Sports, which we’ll definitely spend some time on today. It’s a different type of dog sport. Pretty cool. Really focuses my understanding on drive and tenacity without, uh, focus on bite work and protection.

So a lot of, lot different than many of the sports out there. Jay, we’re excited to have you on today. I think this will be a fun episode. Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it. Coming on. It’s, uh, it’s funny ’cause I’m not really involved in the organization of what I’m gonna end up doing. Like my wife is in charge of the scheduling for me and, uh, the podcast, like, how many episodes are you in?

It’s a fairly newer podcast, right? Yeah. What do you think, Jason? Like eight or 10? Yeah, I don’t, no, 10. Uh, number 10 went live today. Crazy. Yeah. So I remember like I’m, I pay attention to the dog training landscape, right? And I saw this new podcast and I was like, oh, cool. And like Larry’s on it and I’m watching, I’m like, oh, this is cool.

And then like to literally unrelated yesterday. I see. ’cause I checked the calendar for the next day, the day before yesterday. I see ICP podcast and I was like. Oh wait, dude, I’m doing that. No way. That’s cool. I just saw it. Yeah, so, uh, it’s like, it’s, it’s funny how it, it, uh, it just popped up. So, yeah, I mean, as far as to my knowledge, I mean, you guys, we’ve been talking to Mandy for a month.

I don’t know. Yeah, she doesn’t tell. I’m just the dancer, dude. She just turns on the music and I start dancing. You know, we have so many people scheduling podcasts for us that there’s also sometimes just emails like, Hey, J Jack’s gonna be on, on this date. We’re like, cool. I hope we’re all free that date.

No one’s looking at the calendar, trying to make it work. Nice. Perfect. Well, excited to have ya on. So. On that note you mentioned Larry, who would win in a fight, you or Larry? ’cause I think we’ve all been wondering that. Dude, Larry’s a big, burly motherfucker dude. Like if that guy punched me in the face, my entire skull would cave in.

He’s a big dude, you know what I mean? And he’s got some boxing skills as well. Like, so he’s boxed most of his life. Uh, I mean, you know, he’s older now and isn’t competitively boxing or anything like that, but like he’s got some skill. So it would be one of those things where like, you definitely wouldn’t wanna let him punch you.

I mean, you know what I mean? But yeah, that said, you know, everyone’s, I, I tend not to, I tend not to engage in the punching as much. I can understand that. What do they say? Everyone’s got a plan till you get punched in the mouth. Yeah, I mean, I don’t mind, you know what I mean? Like, I’m willing, I’ve let people, at some point in almost every seminar, I let somebody punch me in the face or kick me in the shin or do something stupid like that.

Um. It’s not just a macho thing. There’s usually a point to it. There’s usually a, a bit of some, it, it’s somehow pertinent to the discussion at hand, but I’m not averse to getting punched in the face. Uh, but yeah, I had probably, like, you could probably look on Google and find maybe 15, 20 fights where nobody got punched.

Like just, I, I like Juujitsu very much. Do you know what I mean? Like, I like, I like, uh, hands on. I, I’m not such a, in my own personal expression of fighting, it doesn’t involve so much punching, you know what I mean? It’s more, more grabbing people. That’s my, my shtick is grabbing, so Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like, if, if, uh, if, if Larry punched me in the face, it’d be a short night for me. Um, but if he let me get ahold of him, it, it might be harder, you know? Yeah, for sure. Hey, question, does my audio suck right now? I. No one said anything. I just looked, my microphone was like five feet away from me. Could you hear me?

That I’m assuming, ’cause you were replying. You could hear me that whole time. Yeah, it’s better now. Okay. No one said anything. All of a sudden I was like, normally my microphone’s here and I look and it’s like way over there. Yeah. It’s on this crazy stand. Alright, well how about Phyllis and Jay? Start at the beginning.

How did you become a dog trainer? So you were an MMA fighter first, right? And then got into dog training. It was a complete and total accident. It was not. I mean, that’s the story of my life. I fall face first into opportunities. Like, I, I don’t, I, none of this is planned out. None of this is like, ah, I’ve got a five year plan and I’m gonna implement it.

Like, it’s all just like tripping and falling into opportunities. Do you know, um, I grew up, uh, around dogs. Like I grew up in Louisiana in the late seventies, early eighties. Dog fighting was pretty commonplace, pretty prevalent. And so I had a lot of experience around, uh, game bread, pit bulls, right? That was just the culture that I grew up around.

So it was fairly common, uh, and that to me was just what a dog was, was that, that was just what a dog was. Um, and so, because I’ve also been into martial arts my entire life, I always had my dog with me. This was not intentional. This was not like a fake service dog type of thing, but I was just a kid that brought my dog with me.

Like my dog was gonna be with me unless you told me he couldn’t be. And that didn’t happen super often, just ’cause of my family and who I associated with. So I would just show up with a dog and people are like, fuck, I guess we have a dog here now. I guess. I guess this kid’s bringing his dog to karate class.

Awesome. Great. I guess that’s what’s happening. So like every gym I’ve ever been in, I’ve always just had my dog with me. And so my entire life, there’s been a captive audience of a hundred to 200 people in every gym that are just watching me live well with a dog. And I didn’t know anything about dog training whatsoever.

My dogs had no obedience. They had no out, they like put the water scheme me down the road like there’s no obedience. But we lived together well without conflict, right? So I knew how to handle game bread dogs and I knew how to live well and fulfill the dogs, right? So I couldn’t get ’em to hold it down or anything like that.

I had no training, but I knew how to live well with them, right? And so every gym I’m in, people are watching, there’s a hundred people watching me with this dog just gel into my life and into the gym without a problem. And everybody was the, how the fuck did you do that? And you’re like, oh man, it’s not that hard.

You just gotta da da da da. And so I was the dog advice. Guy, and it wasn’t intentional, it just was kind of the thing. So like I always had a dog with me. And so I was always the one giving advice to people about dogs. And then everybody would know that I was the pit bull guy. ’cause it was pit bulls that I always had.

And so like rescues or shelters or people with difficult pit bulls would kind of go, oh, I know this dude who’s good with pit bulls. And they would bring the dog and they’re like, me and this dog are butting heads, dude. And I’d be like, oh man, you know, you’re not living right with it. And I would talk to ’em about how to live with their dog well.

And so like I kind of became this person that people would ask for dog advice about pit bulls specifically. And every town I would live in, I would end up with that reputation. And it wasn’t for money. I was never asking for money. It was just like advice, just like, Hey man, how’d you do that? And I’d be like, oh, just like this dude.

No, no stress. And so it wasn’t a dog training thing, it was just like a, I don’t know, like a part of my. Personalities part. Part of my identity was just dogs. Like that was just always there. I was pursuing martial arts and fighting, but that was my pursuit. Dogs were just like a side thing, but they were always part of my life.

They were always in the gym. And so I got done with fighting in like 2009 or so and had a lot of experience with dogs by this point, and not just a lot of experience with dogs, but a lot of experience helping other people with troublesome dogs. So I had let myself become convinced that I was good and I wasn’t.

I didn’t realize that I had just been getting a series of dogs that fit a certain profile and like, like dogs are a puzzle piece. And then for them to fit well with the family, they’ve gotta match the puzzle piece of that family. I. And I was just getting dogs that were shaped a certain way and I naturally fit that shape.

And so I could tell other people how to make their shape fit the shape of the dog. But the truth is I only really knew about this one type of dog. And I didn’t know anything about regular dogs were problematic dogs. I just knew about this one kind of dog. And I had convinced myself that I knew dogs and knew some shit about dogs.

And I, I really didn’t. And I wasn’t aware of that until after I retired. I got my hands on this little old family red, this little pit bull, super classic little female pit bull. And she was dog aggressive. I mean, she was, I mean, obviously dog aggressive, but she was like human aggressive, like put holes in my wife’s face at 12 weeks, like legit serious human aggression.

And now my whole life, I mean, I grew up in Louisiana in the seventies and eighties my whole life, if your pit bull bitch, you, you shot him. You know what I mean? Like that’s what I grew up around. But I’m like, man, I know more about dogs. I’ve helped a bunch of dogs, Caesar Milans on TV saying you can change all the dogs.

You know what I mean? I was like, there’s gotta be an answer. And I had just retired from fighting, so I had like a lot of bandwidth that didn’t have anywhere to go. You know what I mean? And at that point, it’s people either when they retire from fighting, they either get really into business, really into drugs or whatever, like, you know what I mean?

Like, it kind of goes bad or go like people find the new thing or fall off the cliff when they retire from fighting. And so I had this like natural amount of bandwidth to like put some energy into something. And I had this dog that I didn’t wanna shoot. And I was like, shit man, I gotta try to find a way to fix this.

And then I put my brain on the idea of figuring out how to help this dog. And that put me down the road of getting in touch with people. I, I, first trainer I ever hooked up with was Tyler Muto. I mean, not the first trainer. I hooked up with a couple of random idiots in my town and like went, went to a, you know, couple of like, super purely positive people.

And then I was like, Ugh, this is gross. And then I went to like a really super heavy handed compulsive person, was like, Ugh, this is also gross. And like, kind of didn’t know where to go. ’cause I kind of was turned off by everybody. And then, uh, there was an old, uh, I think it was called Balanced Trainers Forum way back when.

Uh, and I got on that and was asking some questions and talking about some ideas that I had. Um, and Tyler Mood, everybody shed on me on that, on that website because I was this new trainer, really new, really green asking questions that kind of indicated I didn’t really know what the fuck I was doing. And I wasn’t like taking money.

I was not training professionally in any way. I was just trying to help my dog. But I was like, man, I think I have this idea. And I had this thing and I thought, well, do you, what do you guys think? Do you think this protocol would work? Is that’s, and I had this idea for a protocol. And everybody trashed me.

They were just like, you’re an idiot. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Learn something, tour with somebody. Nah. And Tyler, wait, so you’re saying these dog trainers were judgmental of somebody else? It was brutal. It was brutal. It was brutal. Who would’ve thought it was good? I mean, fortunately I don’t give a shit about the public opinions of others.

Do you know what, like you, one, I grew up not, I grew, I was raised to not give a fuck. Like that was like a message from my dad was like, freedom is not giving a shit about the opinions of others. And so I was raised in that way. I also was just this punk rock kid in the early eighties in Louisiana. So like I didn’t fit in anyway.

And so I was kind of accustomed to not fitting in. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with this, but when you fight for a living, you, you gotta have thick skin. Do you know what I mean? Because replays of you getting kicked in the face, getting replayed over and over and over, somebody’s like, that idiot looked really outta shape this time.

Or, you know what I mean? Like, I can’t believe that guy, let him beat him. Jay is terrible. And you’re like, you know what I mean? Like it’s very rarely a pick me up when you read about yourself. What I mean, every once in a while you get a good article about you, but it’s like the, the bad far outweighs the good and people are taking serious pod shots at your identity, you know?

And so you learn to like have thick skin. So fortunately before I dipped my toes in the water of dog training, I had been toughened up from that perspective where I probably would’ve just run away. I probably would’ve just been like, ah, I’m an idiot, and just run away and never tried to train dogs. But I was kinda like, well, whatever dude, I’m used to getting shit on so it doesn’t bother me.

But Tyler got on there and was like, Tyler was really supportive. He goes, Hey, don’t listen to these guys. That idea, he’s like, that idea is extremely good. You should follow it and I’m gonna steal it. Literally told me, he was like, I’m gonna steal that. I’m using that idea. That’s amazing. And I was like, damn, okay.

This well thought of good high level trainer is like, Hey man, you’re on the right track, guy, keep going. And I was like, all right, cool. And then he said, you gotta get in touch with a friend of mine, Chad Mackin. He’s doing a seminar in your area. And I was like, all right, cool. And I went to the seminar and me and Chad clicked immediately and became really good friends.

He does juujitsu, so he was like my dog training guide and I was his juujitsu guide, do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And so we would talk about dogs and jiujitsu and it was really cool. Um, and after about a year or so of me going to his seminars and he was like, Hey, because I’d be at a seminar and he’d be like, Hey, help me out with this part.

Like he was like letting me assist and stuff. He was being real cool to me, super supportive. Um, it’s like at some point somebody asked me a question at a seminar. They were like, well, where’s your facility? And I went, I don’t train dogs. And they’re like, what? And I go, I don’t, I don’t train dogs. I’m just an, I’m just an owner.

I’m just an owner. You know what I mean? I don’t train dogs. Uh, and Chad was like, yeah, he trains dogs. Like literally told me, you are now a dog trainer. You must go train dogs. Stop saying that you’re not, this is stupid. You’re a dog trainer. And I was like, all right, I guess I’m a fucking dog trainer. And then that’s how I started.

Uh, so you became a dog trainer by Chad, made you basically, it sounds like Chad Mackin told me I had to become a, he was like, you’re an idiot. Stop being stupid. You’re a dog trainer. And I was like, all right, bro. I guess I’m a dog trainer now. Do you know what I mean? I guess it’s kind of the same thing.

It’s like, I didn’t decide when I got a black belt. You know what I mean? I didn’t decide when it was time to fight. My coach decided when it was time to fight, you know? So it took somebody to tell me, you’re, you should do this. Like, you’re ready, dude. You should do this. You know? Um, but honestly, as far as how it got started again.

It was Juujitsu. Like for me, jujitsu’s been everything in my life, including for the dogs, because locally I train dogs, but I have a hundred something students at the gym. So any one of my students or anybody they know that’s looking for a dog trainer, there’s a built in. Oh man, my coach trains dogs, dude.

And like, it’s a built-in word of mouth scenario. Do you know what I mean? So like without my jiujitsu gym, it would’ve been incredibly hard to break into the scene and build word of mouth and like try to get something going. But I got hundreds and hundreds of people that automatically trust me, that have seen me and seen my dogs and know what, you know what I mean?

So like mm-hmm. The jitsu school was the thing that locally created the business. And then, uh, Chad asked me to do a podcast with him, dog training conversations way back in the day. And we did that. And again, nobody knew who the fuck I was. Nobody cared. I was a nobody. I was a brand new baby dog trainer.

Nobody cared. But through the podcast, me and Chad talking, people would hear me and go, oh man, I like what that guy says. That guy has good things to say. Chad was doing seminars at the time, and then somebody from the from the podcast would contact me and go, Hey man, could you maybe come out here and talk about that?

And I’m like, what? You want a seminar? And they’re like, yeah, you should come out here and talk about that. I’m like, I don’t think I can do that. I was like, I don’t, I don’t know. And then of course, uh, Chad and Ivan asked both of ’em, ’cause both of ’em were big influences on me. I was like, what do you guys think?

Should I do this? And they were both like, yeah, man, do it. And I said, all right, fuck it. I’m doing it. And then I started doing seminars and that’s how it kind of took off on a non-local level. But both of those things were from Juujitsu, you know what I mean? Like I wouldn’t even have a dog career without Juujitsu.

Yeah. So that’s easy advice for someone to follow. You wanna become a dog trainer, start a successful jiujitsu gym. Yeah. Right. And then just build off of that, bro. Let me tell you something. Lemme tell you something. You should definitely do Jiujitsu. I mean, there’s a couple reasons you should do Juujitsu if you’re a dog trainer.

There’s a couple reasons. One, one, you get intimate experience with learning theory. Do you know what I mean? Like I’m, dude, when I’m, when I put you in a position, there’s ways that are favorable for you to go for me. And there’s ways that are not favorable for you to go for me. And I have to apply pressure when you’re going the wrong direction.

But I have to relieve the pressure when you’re going the right direction. If I want you to go a certain way, I’ve gotta, I gotta free shape you. I’ve gotta like leave some doors open to get you to think it was your idea to go that way so I can guide you in the like that’s, that is legitimately absolute perfect crossover skillset.

You know what I mean? And that’s one of the reasons I got good at dog training so fast was ’cause for me, I train dogs, like I train people. It’s exactly the same thing. But that’s one reason to Juujitsu. Second reason to do it is there’s an, there’s a weird, there’s a weird secret like overlap Society of dog training and Jiujitsu, there’s a, it’s, I’m telling you like, Chad only paid attention to me because of Jiujitsu.

And it’s not because I was good. He didn’t, you know, I mean, he gave me a little bit of respect ’cause I was good. But like, nobody cares that you’re skilled. They’re just like, oh, you do the same thing. That’s awesome. Like if you play pickleball and you see somebody else in a pickleball shirt, there’s this moment where you’re like, oh, do we have something?

Do we have a shared thing? And it’s weird, but there’s a lot of really high level dog trainers that do juujitsu, like Ivan Ban off’s, a purple belt, Chad Mackins, a purple belt. Do you know what I mean? Blake Rodriguez now I think is a purple belt. Like there’s a, there’s a, there’s a bunch of dudes. That dude Juujitsu.

And a lot of the opportunities that I’ve run into through dogs only were afforded to me because we had the commonality of Jiujitsu. Chad, perfect example, I’m sitting in his audience watching a seminar. He doesn’t know me, doesn’t care, has no reason to pay any attention to me whatsoever. But I had on a shirt that said, you know, juujitsu Academy on it.

And in between things he’s like, oh, do you, uh, you know, you do a little juujitsu and you’re like, yeah, I do a little juujitsu, and we’re talking. But had that shirt not been on, there’s no way he would’ve struck up a conversation. There’s no way we would’ve had any reason to become friends, which means the podcast wouldn’t happen, which means the seminars wouldn’t have happened.

All of it would’ve been dead. Same thing at Ivan’s Place. I was at a seminar at Ivan’s Place and he didn’t know me from Adam, didn’t give a shit, had no reason to talk to me. There’s a bunch of people in matching track suits from their IGP clubs and you know. They’re already and serious. And I’m this idiot in a sweatshirt and jeans.

I have no malis, you know what I mean? I don’t look like I’m supposed to be there, but I got funky ears. And he makes some references in his seminars when he talks. He makes a lot of martial arts references if you pay attention. And, uh, and he’s from, uh, he’s from Bulgaria and there’s a lot of Sambo out there.

And so I asked him in a break, I was like, Hey, did you do Sambo? I was like, I heard a couple of your references. I caught a couple of the things you said, did you do Sambo? And he was like, I did do Sambo, like I said, did Jiujitsu. And he was like, I, I was like, who do you train with? And he was like, Paul Field.

I was like, I know Paulo. He is a good guy. I was like, you know, whatever. It was like this commonality, this is the only reason he ever began speaking to me. Now, clearly, if I was terrible with dogs, that would’ve been the end of the conversation. But the only reason either one of them ever gave a chance to see anything about my dog work was because we had a commonality, a shared point of interest in Juujitsu, which is the only reason they even cracked the door to look and see what it was.

And then of course I had to earn, I had to earn the position in the dogs, but like the only reason they even opened the door to look was because of Juujitsu. You know what I mean? So yeah, dude, do juujitsu, a hundred percent, a hundred percent do Juujitsu. You will 100% be somewhere at a dog training conference and feeling like I have no connection.

And you’re gonna say something about Juujitsu and three people are gonna go, Hey, did you, what did you, did you just say Juujitsu? Do you do Juujitsu too? You know what I mean? I’ve been amazed just many industries and hearing people on podcasts, how much Juujitsu has either taken off in the last few years or just more people are talking about it.

I don’t know. Which it is. Both a little bit, both more people are talking about it for sure. But it’s definitely increased in popularity. I mean, dude, back in the day, like in the, in the late nineties, it nobody, I. Like literally nobody knew what it was. You’d have to explain it. They’d be like, well, my cousin does karate.

And you’re like, it’s not karate, but you know what I mean? Like fights were illegal. It wasn’t on Spike TV yet. Like we’d be getting gear to go to a fight, getting tape and Gatorade and gauze and all this kind of stuff. And people are like, whoa, what are you guys doing? Like, ’cause we’re buying a bunch of weird shit.

And they’re, what? You can’t even explain it. You can, you could be like, now you can just go home doing an MMA fight tonight. And they’re like, oh, cool. They know what you’re talking about back then. You’re like, um, I’m gonna do a, doing a cake fight. And they’re like, what? And you’re like, like pro wrestling?

You’re like, no, not like pro wrestling. Like I in blunt sport, you’re like, yeah, sorta just gimme my shit. I gotta go. Like, you literally couldn’t even explain what you were doing to anybody because it was so foreign. But now man, everybody, you’re like, yeah, I do a little Brazilian jiujitsu and everybody in the world goes, I know what you’re talking about.

It’s crazy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It has taken off. Go do g Well, tell us, tell us about your other sport. So tell us about GRC. I feel like there’s, and we could spend a lot of time on that from the, so research I’ve done on it, it’s pretty cool. This is, this is, this is what happened, right? Um, in the development of my views on dog training, I grew up in pit bulls, right?

So I was exposed to wall climb and spring pole and weight pole and all that kinda shit. Treadmills. I was exposed to all that as a kid and so totally familiar with it. My dogs had every gym I ever in had a, had a spring pole and my dog would hang off the spring pole during class. Like I’ve been doing work like that with dogs my whole life.

It’s not, uh, it was expression and fulfillment. So like it was a place for them to put their drive. So it was a place to channel drive expression. And it was a place the to, to gain fulfillment. I didn’t use it as leverage for obedience. I had no obedience, but I understood it was like they needed to work to be happy.

And here’s how we work, right? I gotta be in the gym to be happy. I gotta go to Juujitsu, I gotta lift weights, I gotta hit the bag where I’m kind of off in my head. And I understood from my own perspective, dogs are the same way. And so that was the work, that was the, you know, the, the activity of fulfillment and, and joy and expression that I would give to the dogs.

So I’ve been doing that my entire life. When I started training dogs, when I started learning about dog training, of course everybody talks about obedience. And I was like, cool. I had to try to figure out which way I was gonna go with obedience. Like, am I doing positive reinforcement? Am I doing negative reinforcement?

Like, which school of thought am I gonna go with? And I kind of studied all of it was like not sure where I fell. And then I got exposed to Ivan Balaban off his real early videos. Uh, actually I got exposed to Ivan through Diane Jessop, who’s this real famous pit bull lady. ’cause on her website, back on my website’s first coming out on her website, she’s like, look, if you’re gonna train these dogs, you should find somebody that understands like a power breed.

And recommended this guy I in balaban off a video called The Obedience Without Conflict the Game. And I was like, all right, cool. And I got that video and was just like, dude, this is it. Because his whole thing was talking about, look, they’ve gotta have a place to put this. He understood the depth of play and the fulfillment of play.

And I was like, fuck yes, because I was already deep in the world of play-based fulfillment. But he was like, not only is it all of those things, but it is also the engine that drives your obedience. Because I can use it for leverage. I can go sit down, stand, come, heal, and then yes, and we can play the game.

And I was like, boom, this guy. It has the paradigm for me, right? And started studying his stuff from a distance. And because I was studying his stuff, started looking into sport dog work because he did sport dog work. Now he does it differently than other people. And I’m still on his track. Not just random sport dog stuff.

I still kind of follow what I got from him. Uh, but I started investigating the world of sport dog training for the purpose of training these pit bulls. Now, I’m not gonna put ’em in bite sports, I don’t give a shit about that. But they, in the sport dog world, understood the idea of expression and control because most schools of thought are either, like when I grew up in the old school pit bull world, it was all expression.

There was no control. And if you go to OAKC obedience, it’s all control. There’s no expression. Do you know what I mean? You look at. Killer method. It’s all control. There’s no expression. And so everybody in the pet dog world tends to skew towards all control, no expression or all expression, no control. And I was like, man, there’s a thing I want.

I want expression and control. And the only people I saw doing that were sport dog people. They have these dogs that are allowed to fully express themselves, but they also have good control. And so I was like, that’s what I need to understand. And so I started spending most of my training time focusing on the sport dog world.

Now what happens is when people get into that zone, they then get recruited. Because in my w in my learning, every single person is when you gonna get ’em out, when you gonna get ’em out? When you gonna start doing bites for when do you, you wanna do monio? You wanna do IGP? What do you wanna do? And you’re like, dude, I just wanna work with my pit bulls.

I just want your information. I’m not trying to break into monio, I just want your fucking information. And so I was always trying to take that information and apply it to the dogs. And I was like, this is great. I’m gonna use the games that I am familiar with. Weight pole, spring pole tug, wall climb, treadmills.

I’m gonna do all the shit that I like to do, the games I already like to play. I’m just gonna play it in the manner that sport dog people play it where they, they, uh, uh, blend control into the expression games. And I was like, boom, that’s what I’m doing. So now, instead of just letting my dog hang off a spring pole for an hour unbroken, I need to out him, down him, recall him, send him, heal him past it, send him, you know what I mean?

Like I need to be able to have that kind of control. In the game that I like to play. And so I started doing that with my own dogs. And of course I started doing that with my client dogs. So that’s just the way that I trained my own personal dogs and my own client dogs were trained in this method of control and expression.

Uh uh, inspired by the sport dog world, but applied to the old pit bull games. Right. No problem. And it was going nowhere. And it wasn’t supposed to, ’cause I wasn’t trying to make a sport. I was just doing it for me and for my clients, right? But we were on this podcast and so I would talk about the stuff that we were doing in our work on the podcast, and people are like, wow, that’s really interesting.

That’s really cool. No problem. And then one day Chad and I had this conversation about positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement as it pertains to your clients. Right? So I was at one of Ivan’s seminars and there were people in Florida that had driven from Alaska with dogs to train. And no one was impressed.

Do you know what I mean? Like, people are like, where’d you drive from Alaska? And nobody went, damn. Everybody was like this. That’s what you do if you want. That’s what you do. Like, nobody was even like nice. Everybody was like, yep. You know? And that pet dog seminars, it’s shocking. If somebody’s more than a three hour drive, you’re like, damn.

You know what I mean? Somebody’s like, I drove four hours and everybody in the room is like, wow. Dedication. So I noticed the difference in the sport dog world and the pet dog world, the commitment to training. The, the, the pursuit of training was so much higher in the sport dog world than it was in the pet dog world.

And we were talking, is that like selection? Are those people just more type A? Like what is it? And in this discussion, me and Chad had, we kind of realized it’s negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement is a wonderful way to get. A standard of compliance and not a cent more like whatever you gotta do to take the pressure off you do.

And once you up take the pressure, there’s no reason to go. Should I go harder, faster, more, should I excel past the standard? Alright, everybody, let’s take a quick break to talk about our friends. Aurora cold weather should not stop you or your dog from staying active and enjoying daily outside time.

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There’s no more excelling needed. It’s a wonderful way to create reliability to a minimum standard. It’s not a good way to pursue, to, to create a pursuit of excellence. It’s not a good way. Now, positive enforcement’s a wonderful way to create pursuit of excellence. Right? Not a good way to create a a, a, a commitment to standard.

Because if I really, really, really want that treat, I’m gonna do a triple back flip to get it. I’m gonna pursue excellence to get the thing I want. It doesn’t necessarily create commitment because once there’s a competing motivator or I’m satiated, I don’t really do it. You know what I mean? So they have pros and cons.

Right. So, uh, positive reinforcement’s a wonderful way to motivate for excellence. Negative reinforcement’s. A wonder, wonderful way to make commitment to a standard, a minimum standard. But if you look at it, we all know this with dogs. 30 years ago, we all stopped doing negative reinforcement, purely, and we all started going heavy, positive reinforcement with just a little bit of backup of negative reinforcement, right?

Everybody does it because that’s how you make a dog that’s compliant, happy to work, enjoys the work, but also has a commitment to a standard, right? Everybody knows it. But when we try to motivate our clients, what do we do? Dude, if you don’t train your dog, he’s gonna bite the neighbor. If you don’t fix this problem, he’s gonna get you kicked out of your apartment.

If you don’t make them stop fighting, one of them’s gonna get put down. Like, if you go back and look in your head of all the ways you’ve tried to motivate your clients, it’s purely negative reinforcement. You hire me to get yourself outta trouble. I motivate you by trying to help you get outta this trouble In my mind, I want you to go this far in your training.

How many clients quit? How many clients make just the slightest little bit of improvement, and then you’re like, good enough for me. They’re out. And you’re like, son of a bitch. You could’ve gone so much further, dude, you could have done so much better. But what did they do? They relieved pressure enough that it became tolerable and went, I’m good.

Once I can relieve the pressure enough that I can tolerate it, I’m good now. And so I realized in my dog work, I’m really, really thoughtful about creating positive motivation and backing it up with a little negative. But in my clients, I’m, I’m, I’m inadvertently totally unintentionally using almost entirely negative reinforcement.

And in the sport dog world, they’re chasing titles. They’re chasing medals. They’re chasing the cookie. They’re not running away from getting kicked outta their apartment. Nobody’s like, well, if you don’t come home, the IGP champion, you lose your lease. You know what I mean? They just want the metal dude they want to achieve.

And so it’s like, I realized in that moment, sport dog world is mo working on a positive reinforcement model. Pet dog world’s working on a negative with the clients with negative reinforcement model. And so as an experiment, I fucked with my, my clients. I said, guys, ’cause all of ’em, I’m trying to get ’em to teach their dog how to loose leash walk and they’re doing it, but just to the bare fucking minimum standard.

And I’m teaching ’em their dog on the spring pole, but I’m like, don’t just let him rip on the spring pole. Like out him, recall him off of it, you know, have him down and wait for the bite. And they’re like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they do it a little, but like, do you know what I mean? They’re not motivated like I want them to be.

And then I said, all right, fuck it. Let’s try this idea. Hey listen, in two Saturdays we’re all gonna get together and we’re gonna have a spring poll contest. And they’re like, Ooh, what’s a Springfield contest? You’re like, Hey, you put your dog on the grip. He’s got a five minute round. I’m gonna ask you for four or five different obedience commands.

You gotta out him. Ask him to front, ask him to down. Ask him to middle recall him. Send him. You know what I mean? We’re gonna have like some obedience off the bite, you know what I mean? And whoever does the best gets a little fucking trophy, you know? And ev all of them. Oh hell yeah, dude, what are we, like, how long?

How many times, how many points do I lose for the crooked front? And you’re like, this bitch has never asked me about straightening up her front in her life. And now she’s like, how can I straighten up my front crazy? And then I go, but look. Look, here’s the deal. When I was looking at IGP and looking at all the bite sports, there’s usually a qualification test before you can play the real game.

So there’s a B before you can do IGP. There’s a PDC before you can do PSA. There’s like a qualification test. So I’m like, here’s the deal, we’re gonna rip it on the spring bowl. We’re gonna fucking thrash the sprint. It’s gonna be amazing. And all these people with high drive dogs are like, fuck yeah, it’s gonna be awesome.

And I’m like, but in order to enter the competition, you have to pass a qualifying test. Qualifying test is loose leash walk, greet three strangers, do a little bit of basic obedience and show me your dog can stay chill for two minutes. And they’re like, oh shit. Okay. Alright. Alright, well I want to play the game.

I wanna play this stupid game, but in order to play the game, I gotta qualify. Okay? And now I’ve got people who might have loose leash walk, train their dog twice a week if I’m lucky, and I hassle ’em. They’re sending me videos of two a day sessions. They’re like 6:00 AM putting a video. I got up early to go to work to do a little loose leash walk and getting ready for the contest on Saturday.

I’m like, what the fuck, dude? What? I haven’t been able to get you to get up early and train your dog in six months. What’s the difference? Well, now they want the metal. And then I realized I have to apply the same logic that I apply to dogs. Dogs have no value in doing place command, but if I tie this tug toy and places the conduit through which you get the tug toy, now the dog’s interested in place command.

Same thing. Well, I want these people to do loosely Schwab, but they have no interest. They’re not naturally motivated to do it. But if this, if this social responsibility test is the conduit to which you get to play the games to get the medals, then they’re like, hell yeah. Now I wanna do it. So like I realized I have to use the same logic I used with the dogs, with my clients, and I did.

And it worked awesome. I had crazy good results with my clients locally. Now, it would’ve died there if I weren’t on that podcast. It would’ve just been a cool local phenomenon that lasted here. And we would play cool games in my training facility and that would be the end of it. But I was on this podcast and somebody on the podcast went, that’s super interesting.

Could you send me. The rules that you made up for it so we can do it the same way. And I was like, well, I don’t really have any rules written down. They’re like, can you write ’em down? I’m like, I guess I can finally write ’em down. I’m writing these rules down and they’re like, well, how many points did you take off for this?

And I was like, I hadn’t really thought about it like that. So I gotta, I should write some rules. And now we have points and they’re like, well, I got a medal. Where do we track metals? And I’m like, I don’t know. Like I’m writing it on a fucking notebook, dude, I don’t know where you track metals. And then somebody else volunteered.

I can make a database and we can track everybody’s points and titles. And I’m like, oh shit. Okay. So now we have a database and we’re, you know what I mean? And it like, through no intentionality of my own turned into this international sport. And now there’s clubs all over the world and there’s a board of directors and it’s insanity.

Dude. It’s insanity. It’s crazy. But yeah, it was just a total accident. It was just some shit I was doing with my clients to try to improve motivation, switch motivational models with my local clients. But we talked about it on a podcast and then everybody got into it and it snowballed into this thing and now it’s a international sport.

But the basic idea is this, it’s inspired by bite sports in the sense that we want to have a qualification test followed by the high drive games that you’re allowed to play. Once you qualify in all of the games, there’s escalating levels of control inserted into the drive. So at the lower levels of all the games, there’s a little bit of control at the higher levels of all the games, there’s a high degree of control, but it’s control and drive expression, right?

Uh, but you gotta pass a little qualifying test first to get in, which is cool. Um, but it’s the idea of playing a bite sport style emotional content game where you can express and control. But instead of playing their games, I’m playing the old pit bull games, um, which is kind of cool. One, I. Because I didn’t wanna just give up on the sports of my youth and do all these other sports, everybody else did.

I was like, I just wanna do my sports like this. But it didn’t exist. Now it does. Um, but also there’s a, a swath of people, especially in rescue, especially in pit bulls that are not gonna be into bite sports. If little Grandma Jenkins comes into you with this fucking bulldog and she has all her views about life and bulldogs, and you’re like, what you need to do is put this guy in a suit and teach him to maul the inside of his bicep, she’s gonna go, what?

I’m sorry. What did you say? And you’re going, no, no, no. He really needs the expression and she’s gonna go hung on to some of the other trainer. Do you know what I mean? Of course you would fulfill that dog, but she’s not gonna do it. Do you know what I mean? There’s some people that are not gonna be comfortable with biting of human shaped objects, and so they can get close to the same effect of training on their dog by having the dog bite a toy hanging off a bungee cord.

It’s not hanging off a decoy. Recalling a dog off a decoy is harder than recalling a dog off a, a bungee. But it’s not nothing. If I can re, if I can do a call off my dog’s in a down, I send him for a long bite on a spring pole and 10 feet away from the thing, I go here and he flips on a dime and runs back to me.

That’s not as difficult as doing that off a decoy. But if you can do that off a spring pole, chances are you can do it off a kid on a bike or a goose or something. Do you know what I mean? And so it still gives people access to a high degree of drive control training without the need of biting a human shaped toy.

I’m curious with your clients, is it pretty self-selecting that you’re getting clients who have a dog who’s pretty well cut out for this sport? I’m picturing a five-year-old golden retriever, you know, like are you seeing clients like that or No, they’re just. They’re not calling you or now Yes. Earlier in my training, no, like all I got was wildly aggressive, problematic pitbulls.

That was it. That’s all. ’cause that was my shtick. That’s what I did. Yeah. If somebody brought me out for a seminar, every single dog in the seminar was a pit bull. If somebody came to me with a dog, they’re like, ah, my dog’s dog aggressive. They open the door. It’s a fucking pit bull. Like I was niched as the pit bull guy.

Once GRC became a dog sport, internationally, people are just like, I wanna do that with my border clie, or I wanna do that with my doc in it. You’re like, oh my God. So like I had to branch out. It’s, it’s interesting, I had to branch out and learn more and more and more about regular dogs. Because the beginning of my career when somebody brought me out and they’re like, how do you teach a dog to do wall climb?

Are you familiar with wall climb? It’s like vertical dock diving. They have to run up the wall, grab the toy, you catch ’em, right? They’re like, how do you teach the dog to do it? I’m like, you show ’em the fucking toy. You. What are you talking about? How do you teach ’em how to do it? You take the pit bull, you go, there it is.

He runs up the wall and falls willingly backwards into his death and you catch him so he doesn’t die. Like there’s no teaching the sport. You just show him the toy and then hopefully catch them. Do you understand? And they’re like, okay, but my dog won’t run up the wall. And they’re like, does he want the toy?

And they’re like, yeah, look, he’ll play tug with the toy. But six inches. And he is like, it’s too tall, it’s too high. And I’m like, okay, now I gotta learn some shit about how to motivate dogs. Because it turns out I only know how to aim pit bulls at walls. I don’t know. I don’t know how to motivate a dachshund to run a wall.

I fucking don’t know. And so I had to learn and become better at understanding the full range of dogs as I got pulled out of pit bull world and pulled into dog world. You know what I mean? So I had to learn how to get better at it. But yeah, now we have all kinds of dogs doing it. I mean, the truth is if your dog will put its mouth on a toy, it can do one of the two bite sports, because there’s.

A fast bite sport where they run up the wall, grab the toy and catch it. It’s like quick, fast tempo. It’s very explosive. And then there’s spring pull and that’s more of a grind. ’cause they, they could be on the grip for three or four minutes unbroken. So like they’ve got a grind and hold, right? So if they’re a grindy type of enjoyment, stubborn biter, they’ll like spring pull.

If they’re a quick, fast movement, jump and explode kind of biter, they’ll like wall climb. Some dogs like both, and then people are like, well, my dog doesn’t like to bite anything sweet. Two of the sports don’t involve biting at all. They’re harness sports, not bite sports. So there’s weight pull and treadmill races.

If your dog can walk, they can do either or both of those sports because they can get on a treadmill and walk. They can walk with a weight behind them. So the question isn’t, can any dog do JRC? Any dog can do Jersey. If they have, if they wanna bite anything at all, they can do two of the sports. If they wanna walk, they can do two of the sports.

The question is, are they going to be fulfilled by the doing of these sports? And so that’s a different question ’cause there’s some dogs that like, you’d have to fucking make ’em do GRC, they’re not into it. That dog should be doing fucking nose work like that. Dog’s heart would be made full by nose work, not jy.

You know what I mean? And so like, it’s another avenue I think you could put any dog in it. And any dog can find some joy in it for sure. It’s very universal, it’s very easy as far as like it’s walking or biting. So it’s very, uh, open to all dogs and universally accepted. But I think the hard, the best thing to do is pay attention to the dog and go, what fulfills this dog?

Not, can I make ’em do this sport, but like, what makes their heart sing? You know? But yeah, it’s very open now. We have all kinds of dogs. We have dachshunds and little frenchies. Corso Frenchies. It’s crazy dude. It’s crazy. It’s all over the world now. It’s bananas. It’s bananas. It was a pit bull sport. Sort of like how when you watch protection sports, it kind of, you get the oppression.

It’s malis sport, you know what I mean? There’s occasionally off breeds, but like it’s kind of malise dominated. It was like that in JRC. In the beginning it was pit bulls. And then every once in a while, a little, another dog would come in. And now I honestly, I don’t know, I think pit bulls are probably a smaller percentage.

It’s tons of normal dogs doing it. It’s crazy, but it’s cool, man. ’cause it’s like it encourages people to live well with their dog because the SR test, like if you’re just pursuing the sport of GRC, you will inadvertently create a livable dog, right? Because by the nature of playing the games with control.

You’re teaching them how and when to express their drive and getting some control and modulation over their drive. ’cause it’s not just go bananas, it’s, you have to stop. You have to go back, you have to stop. You have to go back, you have to do obedience, you have to go back. So like you’re giving them drive expression opportunities to fulfill them, but making sure you’re not doing it completely bananas.

’cause you’re inserting control. And before you’re even allowed to play those games, you have to demonstrate loose leash, walk, basic obedience, and a dog’s ability to stay calm, not under orders. So if you can do those, if you, if you have a dog that can loose leash, walk, do obedience, stay calm, not under orders, express themselves and be controlled in the doing of it.

You kind of don’t have a problem with a dog. Do you know what I mean? Like, no dog excels at GRC and is a life problem. Like, that’s just not possible really. You know? I like that. I, I love the idea of, I mean, the dog being calm when they’re not under orders. But also the express goal being to raise and train a dog who’s good at normal life as well, as well as their sport SR test.

The SR test was, is hard. It’s very simple, but the combination of elements of it make it very difficult ’cause it insists that you have a balanced dog. And I don’t mean balanced, positive, negative, I mean balanced as in skill sets, right? Because there’s three sections. The first section is loose leash walk.

And so the ideal picture is they are at liberty inside the perimeter, given by the leash. They happily accept the perimeter. So if they hit the end, they respect it. If you change directions and they, they come with you, right? So they’re at liberty inside the perimeter, given by the leash, whatever that is.

Six foot, three foot doesn’t matter, but they’re at liberty inside the perimeter afforded by the leash. You lose points for using obedience. So if I’m walking up to greet you and I have to tell my dog, sit. That means my dog was gonna make a mistake if I didn’t tell him to sit. Now you’re allowed to do it and it’s the socially responsible thing to do it.

But again, we’ve, we’ve incentivized teaching the dog how to make their own choices because I could easily pass section one in a fucking focused heel, but I’m gonna lose more points so I can pass. But I’m not gonna get a high score to get a high score. I have to have a dog that’s not being told what to do.

He accepts the perimeter of the leash, walks up to a greeter, what’s up, dude? How you doing? And is loose and chill and knows exactly how to behave. That’s the ideal picture. So it encourages people to use obedience as much as is necessary, but as little as possible. And I think that’s an important thing because I think in the dog training industry nowadays, I feel like people really heavily overuse obedience, purely positive people and very compulsive people.

I think everybody habitually overuses obedience, right? And so this structure incentivizes people to try to use less. Now, if you’ve got a killer of a dog that will eat somebody’s face off, if you don’t tell ’em not to, then fucking tell ’em not to. You can still pass the test, but it, it doesn’t let people just default to hyper control.

It incentivizes relaxing the controls as much as possible. And so that’s section one. You gotta do a couple of figure eights and greet three people. Section two is a verbal obedience. It’s the exact opposite. It is. I give one signal, you do the command, no assistance, no help. Do you know what I mean? Like high level obedience.

There’s a two minute down. You have to go outta sight, you have to greet another dog. There’s a couple of real challenging distractions that are random and you don’t know what they’re gonna be until you get to the event. So you gotta be, you can’t just train for the two things. You gotta train for a bunch of shit ’cause you don’t know what it’s gonna be.

Uh, there’s a recall to front. So that section is standard obedience one, signal compliance, no help. It’s the opposite. And then the last section is zero. It’s liberty. The dog’s calm and chill and under no orders for two minutes. Now you could down him for the entire two minutes if you want to, but you’re gonna lose more points.

Do you know what I mean? So the more at liberty he is, the more points you’re gonna have. And so if you’re chasing the high score, you’re chasing both a dog that knows how to behave when you’re not telling him what to do. And a dog that knows how to give you that control and do what you said when you said it, they can do both of those things.

And that as simple as it is super hard. ’cause the people that are control freaks or the really bad dogs that need a lot of assistance, they kick ass in the obedient section. They’re boom, boom. And then the liberty section, they’re like this, oh shit. Oh shit. Oh shit. The whole time. Like, oh no. Oh no. Right.

And the dogs that are like goldens, little swishy tailed chill, they do the liberty section in the loosely section. Like it ain’t shit. Those people usually have terrible obedience because they’ve never had a reason to do obedience because the dog never really makes mistakes. So I don’t need to tell him what to do.

And so like if you have an easy dog, the obedient section is hard. If you have a hard dog, the liberty section’s hard, but it makes people address good, tight, solid control. And also letting go of those reigns and letting the dog learn how to make decisions on their own, that forces people through the point structure to do both of those things.

And that’s really hard ’cause nobody’s naturally, both, everybody skews towards one or the other. A quick, quick question. Yeah. Um, so I was looking on the website and I noticed there are two clubs here in North Carolina. Yep. Matt’s over in Tennessee. There are no clubs there. It doesn’t look like, so how would, how would somebody like Matt get involved if he wanted to?

So there are no official clubs there. And when we say official clubs, like to be an official club, you have to have three members. Like you have to have three members that are registered with GRC. You have to register with GRC and you have to have one annual event per year minimum. Right. That event could be a trial, a mock trial, uh, a seminar related to GRC, but you’ve gotta have some kind of community action going forward.

You can’t just say you’re a club and do nothing. Right. Um, now that said, there’s uh, clubs that are on the website are registered clubs. They’re following all those steps. There’s a shit ton of clubs that are not registered. So there’s like, do you know what I mean? Like there’s a whole bunch of obedience clubs that aren’t registered with the A KC.

They’re just an obedience club. Sure. There’s a whole bunch of people doing bite work that are not. Registered PSA members or whatever, right? So you could get on Facebook, there’s a GRC discussion group on Facebook and say, first, first step is look on the website and see if there’s any sanction clubs. If there are, awesome, the contact information is on there.

If, uh, there’s no clubs in your area, get on GRC discussion group on Facebook and say, Hey guys, I’m in this area. Is anybody there? ’cause there’s a good chance there’s either a club that’s not registered yet, a group of people that train, but don’t call themselves a club. And if there’s, if there’s like, if not, there’s two or three people that are gonna go, there’s no clubs around here.

But dude, if I’d, I’d be into it. And then all you need is to get together and train. You know what I mean? So you don’t have to be a high level competitor or a judge or anything to start a club. You could start a club tomorrow if you want to. The point is not GRC clubs are amazing people. The point of A GRC club is it’s a group of people committed to trying to find the same goal together.

Here. Now, if one of you’s really experienced, it’s awesome. It’s easier for everybody to find the same goal ’cause somebody knows the way. But if none of you’re experienced, you can still start a club. Because we’re not saying when you start a club, you’re not saying, um, some badass at GRC. You’re like, listen, I’m making the space for people who want to chase this goal together.

Can be that’s the point of a club. You know what I mean? So yeah, those are the ways to do it. Check the website if there’s nothing there. Again, on Facebook, if there’s nothing there, dude, be the change you wanna see in the world. And start a club. Start one. Jason. I mean, I’ve got a cattle dog who would be down for all of this.

He’d, he’d love it all. We’ve got some monster cattle dogs. There’s a couple, uh, in Boston, south Shore, GRC Club has them, and they are like, full on, they, they are competitive in, uh, wall climb. I mean, no, not wall climb yet. They’re learning wall climb. They’re competitive in mill racing. And spring pull for sure.

Um, and they’re SR through the, like they’re already doing a, I’m pretty sure they’re on their SR three at this point, which is crazy hard. So like, yeah, there’s a, there’s a few catalogs that are, that are monsters. We’ve got a couple of really high performing, uh, border collies in Colorado, like super or high performers.

So it’s, it’s nuts, man. Like we need to get some more pit bull people in this shit. So we could take some of these things back because these other dogs are running us over. Dude, that’s not our, you know, but it’s, I really like, like I was hoping that it would click over and infect some of the other competitors in the pit bull world.

’cause there’s all kinds of A-D-B-A-W three po. There’s UKC doing wave pull. Now there’s a bunch of organizations that are doing these sports without the control parameters. And I was really hoping that what would happen is all of them would be like, oh, it’s our games. Plus a little spicy challenge of, of control and would be attracted to it.

That’s dos are gonna hijack the GRC God damnit. It’s, you know, sadly, sadly, sadly, I’ve seen it go the other way a couple times I’ve seen it where people see GRC go, that’s what I want to do with my dog. ’cause of the control and the, you know, and then they start training ’cause their dog really likes spring pool.

They really like WaPo and they like try the SR once and it’s really hard. They fail and then they’re like, man, that’s gonna take a lot of training. Or I could just go to A DBA and pull my dog next weekend and nobody’s gonna give a shit that I water ski ’em out to the track, nobody’s gonna care. And then they’re like, uh, they sneak off and just go expression only, but that’s okay.

Do you know what I mean? Like honestly even that is still better for their dog than not doing it.

Absolutely. So, somewhat unrelated question, I’m curious, your take on this. What is a pit bull, a dog? So, and I’m assuming you get my question here, but people are always fighting about this and to you, you’re into the breed. What’s a pit bull? So there is a breed. There is a breed that is, you know, when people go, there’s, there’s no such thing as a pit bull.

It’s a classification of dog. It’s not a breed that is a hundred percent incorrect. There is absolutely an American pit bull terrier. There’s papers, there’s lineages. It is a breed, right? It is a breed for sure. Uh, UKC registers it. A DBA now registers it. I’m sure there’s bunch other bullshit organizations now, but those guys are legit and they’ve registered American pit bull terriers with papers and traceable lineages.

That’s a real thing, right? It’s also true that there are dogs that do not have papers that I would consider a pit bull. Do you know what I mean? So it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, a breed standard. It is also a, a type, you know what I mean? Like there’s a, there’s a breed standard with books and papers and there’s also like, it’s kind of a type of dog.

And there’s also the discussion of like, you know what I mean, dude, like if you read Colby’s book, he, uh, he said one of his best pit dogs that he ever had was a stray dog that he found on the street, like living with a pack of dogs, stray dog that he found on the street. And that was one of his best pit dogs ever.

Like highest performing fighting dogs that he ever had was a, was a stray dog. He didn’t have no papers. It was a fucking stray. So, do you know what I mean? So like, he didn’t go, ah, this dog is not a registered American pit bull terrier. I’m not gonna delete, you know what I mean? Like Pitman, I. Put dogs in the pit that didn’t have papers, had questionable papers.

They made some assumptions like, oh man, they don’t give a shit. Like, dude, if doodles would’ve put up real good in the pit, all pit bulls would have fucking doodle here now. You know what I mean? Like they weren’t, they were performance based. They put in whatever they could to get the performance they needed.

After a while of creating dogs of a particular type for performance. That particular type became so ized and standardized. We could make papers and call it a breed, but it started as a type and then turned into a breed. And then there’s types that have deviated off of it. Does that make sense? So that’s, that was my follow up question.

Is an AM staff a pit bull in your opinion? Well, so you’re shaking your head, you’re shaking your head, but in the beginning, absolutely, a hundred percent. Right. So are you talking about currently or are you talking about ever? ’cause when people shake their head, I could be convinced that they’re not an American pit Bull terrier.

Currently right now. But when the A KC opened their books, right when the a KC opened their books, they registered the American Stafford Shere Bowl terrier. The UKC had already been registering American Pit Bull Terriers every single dog. When the first UKC opened, when the A KC opened their books and registered American Staffordshire Terriers, every single one of those dogs was dual registered.

Every single one of the dogs in the A KC American Pit Bull Terrier, it was on a registered, I mean a American Stafford Territ, it American Staffordshire Bull Terrier. It was an American Pit Bull Terrier In the UKC, they dual registered. When the A KC started registering dogs, they were like, let’s go down the list of the breeds.

We wanna register this one, we wanna register this one, we wanna register this one. They came to American Pit Bull Terrier and they said, well, we wanna register this one, but we don’t like the name. American pit bull Terrier. We don’t want to like pit bull, we don’t want to get into the pit. Uh, we don’t wanna advocate pit fighting.

Uh, you know what I mean? And so they were like, we need to call it something else. And so they went, what was it before? It was an American pit Bull Terrier. What was it? And the truth is, it was a Stafford she bull terrier that we brought to America and bred bigger until we called it something different than a Stafford She Bull Terrier.

So Stafford Shere Bull Terriers were where it started, and then it came to America. We turned ’em into American Pit Bull Terriers a little bit bigger than a staffy bull. And then the A KC was like, well, we wanna register that dog too, but we don’t want to call it a pit Bull terrier. So let’s look at the books.

Where did it come from? It came from the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, so we’ll call it the American Staffordshire Bull Terrier. So every single one of those dogs was dual registered. And then, so now we go down the generations, we have a KC book and UKC book. They’re the same dogs, literally the same, not the same type, the same fucking dog, the same individual animal who registered both.

Now we have some that like they continued to dual register for a while and then some got snooty and went, I’m only American Pit Bull Terrier, and they only registered UKC. And then some of these guys are like, we’re not gonna cross between the books. We’re not gonna dual register. We’re only gonna go UKC registered.

And then they just stayed UKC. And now there’s been a long enough line of deviation between those two strains that there are some, you can tell some differences, like for sure you can tell some differences, but they started as literally the same fucking individual dogs. So if we’re talking historical bloodline, same dog.

If you’re talking, is there some trait characteristic differentials? Absolutely. Of course there are. But there’s also some trait differentials between UKC, American Pit Bull Terriers that are no longer game bred and American Pit Bull Terriers game bread. So it’s not just, there’s a branch difference between AM staff and a PP American Pit Terrier.

There’s a branch difference between American Pit Bull Terrier and Game line American Pit Bull Terriers. So all of the branches have now split out, but they’re all from the same thing. Does that make sense? Because then off, it does, off American Pit Bull Terrier, we get people that are going American Bully at American Bull Dog.

And so like the branches keep, it’s like a tree upside down. There’s like one main branch and then it goes and it just gets into like capillaries and now it’s just bananas. And now there’s these 300 pound stupid Hulk pit bulls and the toad line with the bad legs. It just. It’s insanity, but if you go backwards, they all came from the same original dog, you know?

So I’m gonna use this conversation to settle a bat and throw it in someone’s face. So I, I like where, where this is going. This is good. No, no. One of my favorite dogs ever was Ida Scott type American Bulldog that, you know, high performance working dog that I loved. She was great. But I’m just curious, in your opinion right now, a dog is, is Pit Bull a group of dogs or is it the American Pit Bull Terrier to you today?

So I understand the, the, the, I understand the correctness of saying American Pit Bull Terrier is a papered registered breed, but to me, uh, it’s a type, do you know what I mean? Like, I could get real proper, I. When somebody goes, when somebody goes, I have staffy bowls right now. Like in my old age, I retired and I got fucking a little, I got a couple of 25 pound staffy bowls.

Fucking awesome. When somebody on the street goes, oh my God, a pit bull. I don’t go, well, technically it’s a stir the world trailer. I just go, yeah, they’re not wrong dude. They’re not wrong. Staffordshire bull Terriers will wear a bull terrier cross that we’re put in the pit. It’s a you’re not wrong. You’re not wrong.

I get it, but I’m also not gonna sit in to give ’em the fucking genetics lesson about it. I just go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When I see a dog and they come out and they’re like, I’m like, you know, I go, oh yeah, you got a little pity. I’m like, there you got a pit bull. Technically that dog’s probably a Stafford, an American Stafford Shere Bull Terrier, a KC line.

Or I look and I go, you got a little pity. And it’s like, technically it’s an American bully. It’s probably, it’s, it’s probably like razor’s edge mixed with some fat bulldog. You know what I mean? And I’m like, yeah, but I mean, it, it, it, when we’re talking about dealing with the dog, I, in my head, Pitbull is a type, I know it is a breed.

I get it. And I, we could have that whole fucking discussion, but it’s just like, Jesus Christ, dude. You know, I think, I think people, I think people get super snooty about it, and I understand why, because it’s like, look, there’s, there’s a problem with the bite statistics because of that. So people that have really good American pit bull terriers.

Classically didn’t have a shit ton of human aggression. It was, it was, it was, it wasn’t never, but it was like really not selected for like very heavily not selected for it’s inconvenient as shit. And so it’s like they generally aren’t very human aggressive, you know? And when some fucking, some dog that kind of has sort of a pit bullish sort of head kind of makes the newspaper ’cause pit bull mauled baby, all the people are like, it’s not even a pocket of pit bull.

And they get all mad. And I understand why because if any dog that does something shitty gets called a pit bull, it starts to make life difficult for people with pit bulls. And that doesn’t happen with Malis. Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s not, there’s if, if, if every single shepherd e looking dog, like a lab shepherd mixed.

Bit a dog, bit, bit a person and somebody was like, Malinois attacked another human today. People would lose their goddamn damn eyes. They’d be like, that’s a fucking Labrador Shepherd. What are you talking about? But it looks shepherd ish enough. If we put the two up next to each other and ask some fat guy at the mall, if it’s the same dog, he’d say yes.

So like, you know what I mean? Like I get it. Misidentification of breed becomes problem when we talk about consequences for actions of breeds. So that’s problematic. So if we’re talking about breed specific legislation and like consequences based on breed, then we don’t want to use types because that becomes an issue.

But if we’re talking about dog identification, dude, it’s, you know what I mean? Again, Kolby took a dog off the street, put him in a pit, wasn’t like too bad. You’re not a registered American pit bull terrier. He was like, I think you’d do good work. And stuck him in, did good work. Kept him around like her, I think.

But you know what I mean? So it’s like. I don’t think the old dog men were that particular as the people are now. I think the old dog men were mixing stuff and putting stuff in and grabbing strays and whatever they thought would get the job done. Got in the bloodline a little bit until they got to a type and they’re like, yeah, this is fucking working.

And then they tried to keep it, and then that’s when it became a breed. But you know what I mean, like, to me it’s, it, it it, it gets into less useful discussions to argue about every individual dog and what their genetics are. Do you know, because the blood all came from the same place. The, the point is what are the characteristics they have?

Do you know what I mean? Like that’s the point. The issue is that, so, uh, brown and Dickey wrote a good book called American Pit Bull Terrier, the Icon, American Icon or something. I’m gonna get, I’m getting the title wrong, but it’s something like that. Uh, and in it, she’s got a chapter on genetics. It’s super useful.

I think any dog trainer that works with Pit Bull should read that book. Um, it’s one of my. If you’re gonna work pit bulls. I have a few recommended books I think you should read. That’s one of them. And this chapter on genetics is important because essentially it’s like the traits that made a good pit dog.

When we were breeding dogs to fight, they had a certain kind of characteristics and it’s like no fear, super brave, no fear, right? Super connected to humans. Like very, very connected to humans. Um, super high pain tolerance, love conflict, like love conflict. Those were the traits that make a really good pit dog, right?

And so every dog that was bred for the pit kind of, you know, came up with a high. Not all of ’em had all of them, but for the most part, and they had most, right? And so that was the dog. Now if you get a dog with all four of those traits, super awesome family dog. Super awesome, stable dog. Kids get bit because dogs get scared.

You got no fear, no kid gets bit, kids get bit ’cause they hurt the dog. You have no pain. You poke me in the eye. I go like this, eh, whatever dude. Step on my tail. I’m like, whatever. Dude. If I have super high pain tolerance and no fear, I’m real good with kids. I love conflict, but I’m super connected with people so I don’t wanna fuck up my relationship with my people.

So my conflict goes into the toy and digging holes and chasing rabbits and shit and not fucking with my people. Do you know what I mean? So it’s like there’s these combination of traits that make a wonderful pit dog happen to make a wonderful life companion. They get a little dog aggressive. You know what I mean?

So you gotta watch out for that. But like outside of dog aggression, wonderful family dog, right? And that’s where the classic American, American Pit Bull Terrier characteristics come from. And the issue is now nobody breeds ’em for the pit anymore. Not that I’m, I’m not an advocate for pit fighting. I’m an advocate for trait-based breeding, but not necessarily what you’re gonna do with it.

I don’t need it. To be in a pit. You don’t have to be a fighter to train like one. And if me and Mandy had a kid and it, it, we wouldn’t have to put him in the ring, but he’s still gonna have us in him. Do you know what I mean? So it’s like those characteristics are what make the dog awesome. And if you get a dog that has all four of these characteristics, it is the classic American pit, bull type, you know, uh, behavior traits, how you interact with it, what fulfills it, blah, blah, blah.

The issue is that now we’re shotgun breeding dogs, not for purpose, but for looks. And so you get these weird popups. A dog is born with these three, but not this one. A dog is born with these two, but not the other two. And that changes the nature of the dog because if you get a dog that has super connected to people, right, super connected to people, uh, does, does have fear, like is like kind of timid ish.

Does not love conflict at all. And has high pain tolerance. You’re gonna get a dog that’s like wonderful grandma Pig bowl. Puts on the pajama, sits on the couch, doesn’t need to play tug in order to live, doesn’t want any conflict, is easy to train. ’cause you can go hey. And he’s like, sorry, sorry, sorry. You know what I mean?

And you’re like, look, grandma has a pit bowl that just wears, you know what I mean? The, the, the, the one that with the duck in his mouth. And like, look how cute I am. And I’m wearing pajamas and like just this fucking pit bull, pet bull fucking thing, right? That’s a real dog that exists. But you gotta deal with that dog totally differently than the dog that has all four.

And then the dog exists. That is like, loves conflict tremendously. No fear, no pain. Not connected to people at all. Now I have a serious fucking problem. We have a really problematic dog. Brave, not scared, no pain. Wants to brawl, doesn’t give a fuck about you. That’s a problem. That’s a seriously aggressive human problematic dog.

But it’s because it had these three and not this one. And so each of those combination presents different kinds of pit bull type, you know what I mean? So it’s like, it’s less important to go like registered American pit bull terrier. ’cause unless you’ve been game breeding the dog, you can still get the random thing.

So I can get a dog that’s got no papers, that has all four, and he’s that dog. And I can get dog that have papers and he’s missing one of ’em. And it makes him a serious problem. He’s missing another one. And it makes him not a good working dog, but a good family dog. You know what I mean? So it’s like learning the, the combinations and the different processes, the ways that you train each of the different combinations of those dogs is more important than P pit bull.

But when I look at a dog and I see the outside looks like a pit bull, if the outside looks like a pit bull, the statistical chance that the inside looks like the pit bulls greater than if they don’t. And so I start going, here’s the traits I’m looking for. Which ones are you missing and how does that change my approach to you?

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Technically it in, in the technical sense, it would be dogs that have papers trace back to dogs that fight. You know what I mean? Like, so these dogs have, you know, there’s a champion this’s a grand champion, they made this litter. You know what I mean? But after a few generations, if they’re not fighting them, we don’t have a way to test the gameness in the classical sense.

Um, but then you’re gonna get into the people that are still breeding the dogs that try to have the qualities of dogs that fight. Even if they don’t fight them, they’re trying to breed that classic four characteristic dog. Do you know what I mean? Um, and there are other ways you get in trouble in the pit bull world when you say there’s other ways to test gameness.

’cause some assholes gonna go, no, there’s nut. And you’re like, all right dude, settle down. So, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like I’m pretty game. Like I fought in a cage for money. I feel like I’m pretty game. But it didn’t involve box cutters. Do you know what I mean? So like, maybe I am a bitch, maybe I’m not game.

’cause we never know ’cause I never did it with box cutters. And you’re like, all right dude, calm the fuck down. Like I get it. The purest way to test gameness is in life or death full on holes in blood. I get it. I get it. But I also think that you can test some elements of gameness without combat. Do you know what I’m saying?

So like, wrestlers aren’t doing MMA fights, but you kind of can’t really say they’re not game at all. That’s not true. You know what I mean? Like we can see, so weight pull, things like that, like hang time on the tug toy. There’s all kinds of things that people do as surrogate activities to go, I’m not gonna do that, but I’m gonna get around the edges and see like, this dog is fucking, he’s got those characteristics.

But we’re always making assumptions, not assumptions. We’re making extrapolation. Do you know what I mean? My dog stares at the top of the refrigerator ’cause that’s where I put the tennis ball and he does it for four and a half on broken hours. And I’m like, I can’t say he’s game for doing that, but I’m like, I recognize that quality dude.

Like I can’t say that that makes you a dead game fight in pit bull, but I can say that. It doesn’t not make you that. You know what I mean? The dog that goes, I can’t get it. Possibly it’s through and walks off in two seconds. You’re like, really dude, you quit fast, bro. So, you know what I mean? Like when we see those, I don’t quit characteristics.

We extrapolate it out to go, I think you have the, I don’t quit in you. You know what I mean? And so it’s like realistically it’s gameness is the willingness to pursue a goal regardless of success rate or amount you have to pay to pursue it. Right. That’s Gameness. And so like the. The, the true test is if we say gameness is what you’re willing to pay to pursue it, then the only way we can test ultimate gameness is the ultimate price.

That’s ridiculous. So like, I’m not gonna ask my dog to pay the ultimate price, but I can see what he is willing to pay. Do you know what I mean? How long your dog will stay on the track when it’s hot. You know what I mean? How long your dog will stay in the grip when somebody’s fucking getting at him with a stick.

These are all, what, what, what is the price of admission you’re willing to pay to pursue this activity that’s gameness. Do you know what I mean? Success rate is important too, because a lot of dogs will go through a bunch in order to succeed, but true gameness is not about necessarily I’m doing it because I know I’ll win.

You’re like, I’m doing it because I’m fucking doing it. Like quick releases on a spring pole is a good example. Until 15 years ago, I never put a quick release on a fucking spring pole. I would’ve never come up with it. I would’ve never thought about it. Because you put a dog on a fucking spring pole and there’s no such thing as a guy that goes, well, what do you do when he gets disappointed that he’s not winning and he quits and comes off the grip?

You go like this. Whatcha talking about whatcha, whatcha talking about? What are you talking about? I’ve seen, I’ve known dogs that held on to a spring pole until they had a stroke. I’m not saying that’s a good practice, but they held on for so long they had a stroke and fell off. There’s no like, oh, it’s not coming off.

I give up. Like, that’s not in that dog, dude. That’s not in that dog. My dogs would hang on a spring pole literally for an hour while I’m teaching kickboxing. And they would just hang and you’d know that they, I would, when I hear them going, I’m like, he’s jaw starting to hurt. He is not coming off. I had to go take him off of it because I recognize this has gone far enough for you.

And he was still like, give it back to me. Give it back to me. Give it how my jaw hurts. Give it back to me. And you’re like, that’s a dog. That’s like. I’m not doing it for success, I’m doing it because I’m pursuing. And so it was probably 10 years ago, 15 years ago, that I had to realize other people’s dogs weren’t like that.

And now we mandatory, we put quick releases on our spring pole because if you don’t, dogs will pull, pull, pull in the go, it’s not working and give up. So we have to do the whole dog training success of approximation. You pull for 10 seconds, I slip it, and then you pull for 10 seconds and I slip it. And after a couple days of that, I get you to 12, 15 seconds.

And then I slip it and then like I build you up until you could do it for a minute. And that’s, my father would turn over in his fucking grave if he saw that. Do you know what I mean? He’d be like, whatcha doing dude? I’m like, I’m trying to teach a dachshund to play on a spring, fall day. Leave me alone.

You know what I mean? So it’s like, it’s that idea of gameness is not, the truest test is the ultimate price because the definition is what are you willing to pay to pursue? But obviously that’s ridiculous. We’re not gonna make ’em pay the ultimate price. So we get into these zones where we’re like, we see these moments where the dog gets to say, here’s what I’m willing to pay.

And you’re like, damn dude. Like, okay, I see that you are willing. I extrapolate what I think that level of willingness would be if we were to extrapolate it out. I’m not gonna make you prove it, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna recognize it in you. So gameness is the willingness to pursue a goal in spite of success.

Lack of success or cost. You have to pay to pursue it. That’s gameness, you know, but that’s in Bloodhounds in the right context. Do you know what I’m saying? So can we switch gears for a second? You said something interesting that I’d love to circle back to. I’ve just been looking for the right time. You had mentioned Jay, that.

You feel like obedience is overused? Uh, yes. With a lot of trainers, and I won’t bore you with all my opinions on that. I have some strong opinions there. I think people have lost the abil, many people, I’m not saying everyone, but have lost the ability to read and understand dogs and control dogs without having to put, you know, lock them in a command.

And I think the place command has been overplayed a lot of times. And like I said, I’m not gonna bored with all my opinions, but walk us through like, why did you say that and how did, how is that used in your sport? Well, so in this, in the sport, the sport is just, uh, an extrapolation of the way I train dogs.

Do you know what I mean? So like, when we talk about my dog training, we’re talking, it’s not that we’re talking about the sport, like I put all the dogs in the sport, but the sport is literally just how I train and the goals I have for dogs. When I train, codified and made medals and shit, that’s all. It’s so for me.

There’s this idea, uh, the, the, the, the, the analogy that I use for people, this is actually what I’m talking about at the ISAP conference this year. There’s a, there’s this idea that I use called Windows. It’s a, it’s a teaching tool I use called Windows. I didn’t make it up. It’s not some trademark. I fucking invented some system.

It is what I noticed that the best teams and team of like dog person, the best teams of dog and person that I’ve ever seen, the best trainers with their dogs, I have realized this is what the truth that they live in, right? And once I recognize that it’s easier, once you recognize what something is, it’s easier to transmit it to somebody else.

You know what I mean? And so like seeing this understanding of this idea has helped me kind of transmit to other people how to have that relationship, that symbiotic relationship that I see the best dog handler teams have. Um, and it goes like this. There’s these windows, these modes of operation of a natural dog, modes of operation of a natural dog.

This is not exhaustive, but it’s a good idea. It’s a good framework. The idea is there’s one mode of being the dog is expressing his drive into the world has nothing to do with you. He’s chasing butterflies. He is digging a hole. He is howling at the moon. He doesn’t know where you are. He is like boo. He’s expressing his drive into the world away from you.

Then there’s a window of opportunity where he’s expressing drive into you. It’s with me and through me. So even if I throw a Frisbee, it’s away from me, but it’s with me. Like he getss a Frisbee comes back to me. So if we imagine a rabbit and a Frisbee, the find your own fun window is when he doesn’t know I have a Frisbee, he’s chasing the rabbit.

The play with me window is when he is chasing the Frisbee and doesn’t give a shit about their rabbit, right? So expressing your drive outward, unrelated to me, expressing your drive into with and through your pack, right? Your me, your person. And then there’s free but calm. I’m not expressing drive. I’m not under command.

I’m not under orders. I’m just hanging out. But I am not currently blowing my drive into the world. I’m just existing Now. That means I’m sniffing, walking, hanging out, but I’m not like, I gotta get the poison out. I’m not blowing drive into the world. I’m just existing. Those are the three natural modes for a dog.

Your dog is in one of those windows all the time, unless they’re broken. Genetically or traumatized, they’re in those windows all the time. So whatever your deal is with a dog, they’re always in one of those windows. Now, the relationship between a dog and person, the conflict comes between dog and people when we don’t agree on the windows.

So the little golden that doesn’t need any training at all, grandma Jenkins and that fucking little golden, and they’re in perfect harmony all the time and they don’t know why dog training is a job. You know what I mean? It’s because the dog can read the play, right? When she settles down to knit, the dog goes, oh, this is the chill time.

And he chills. And when she gets up and starts to walk to the door, he’s like, oh fuck, this is the fetch time. And he is right and she throws the ball and he is wicked happy about it. And then her arm gets tired and she’s like, okay, go fuck off and do your own thing. And he reads the plane and he is like, I’m gonna go fuck off and chase rabbits.

And he does. And then she’s like, all right, let’s calm down again. And she sits down and has lemonade and so does he. And the dog reads the play, and they are in harmony because the dog can see which mode he’s supposed to be in, and he can meet her in the mode. Does that make sense? And when she wants to be in one, he agrees.

And sometimes he wants to be in one and she agrees. And they’re never in conflict because they always agree on the window. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Perfect relationship. It was beautiful. It’s awesome and we’ve all seen it or had it and it’s amazing. And then what happens is every dog, because they can’t possibly read the play all the time correctly, it’s impossible all the time.

A hundred percent correctly. It’s impossible. We do some shit like we teach a recall and we teach a stay because my dog’s in the chill window and he is not doing anything wrong, and he’s reading the play correctly. Like we’re not playing. He is not expressing drive. But I actually need him to stay right in that spot for some arbitrary reason that I can’t possibly communicate to him.

He can’t possibly know that, so I gotta teach him a down. And now he goes, I don’t know why, but I’m gonna stay right in this spot. And we’re like, cool. He couldn’t have known that. He couldn’t have read. That’s not natural. That’s not real. He couldn’t have known that. So I can now tell him that, or he’s out expressing, drive into the world and everything’s cool, but I need him to come to me.

And so I have to go, come and I have to teach him to come to me. And he couldn’t have known that it was time to come to me. He can’t just intuit that. So we have obedience. We have obedience for the moments where my dog cannot possibly read the play. It’s not one of the natural situations. It’s a totally arbitrary thing that my dog can’t possibly know.

And so I have to teach him when I say this, we have this responsibility. And if I teach him, we then agree on that. We agree. He’s in a doubt. We agree. He’s doing a recall. I say recall, he goes, I guess I’m recalling. I say, down he goes, and we’re again, we’re back where we agree on the windows and there’s no conflict in our life.

Does that make sense? The issue is that dogs, because they have been less fulfilled, they’re genetically getting weaker and weaker because we’re not purpose breeding anymore. So dogs are getting more and more fucked up. Genetically lives are getting more fucked up from the fact that dogs are not being fulfilled, people are not giving their dog purpose.

People are not giving their dog outlets. People are not letting their dogs fully express themselves in their genetic potentials. They’re just like making them live in a little apartment and stare at a fucking window, and it’s like it’s rough. And so dogs genetically are getting worse and their lifestyle’s getting worse, so they’re becoming more and more problematic.

The issue is that before. Dogs were reading the play mostly, and we hired a dog trainer to teach a couple of bits of obedience. But in our mind, I teach obedience so we can get out of conflict and on the same page, right? So now we take these dogs and we hire a dog trainer. And as a dog trainer, we are almost full, fully focused on the work window.

So there’s the play with me window, the express yourself into the world window, the chill window and the work window. I’m gonna give you a job to do and you gotta do it. Dog trainers are like, my job is teaching this Sit down stand heel place come. That’s my job. Because for the biggest, longest time in the industry, dogs had this naturally and just needed a little bit of assistance here for those in between little weird moments, time to time.

But now they’re not living in conflict with each other. Well, they’re not living, they’re, they’re not living in harmony at all. They’re living in complete conflict. My dog at 3:00 AM is like, play with me. Play with me, play with me. And I’m like, motherfucker, that’s not the window. I. Do you know what I mean?

Or I want you to be chill and you’re like, rabbits. And I’m like, fuck, that’s not the right window. And we’re always grinding our gears ’cause we’re disagreeing about what window we’re in. And when you ask a dog trainer to solve this problem, they go place, give ’em a job, heal. Because I don’t want to chase rabbits, place him, because I don’t want him jumping on the neighbors fucking down him because I don’t want him to try to play with me if he’s, if he, he can’t poke me in the leg if he’s in place.

You know what I mean? And they solve the problems that we have in this area of like, we are in the wrong windows. We are failing to communicate about what mode of operation we ought to be in right now. And obedience is the one that we can agree on the fastest. I say down you agree? Down, down is down place is place.

At least we’re outta conflict ’cause we’re both in the same goddamn window. But the problem with that is once you do that, once you start using obedience. To avoid the idea of incorrect window conflict, the dog becomes in obedience all the time and it becomes this 24 7 place heeled down Crate 24 7 because the second I let them start making choices, they read the play wrong and they’re in the wrong window.

We get frustrated and we go down, and now at least we agree. Does that make sense? So for me, I place a premium on teaching the windows how I need to make sure that all your windows exist. Because if I have a dog that can play with me and can chill, but is velcroed to my leg and refuses to explore the world, I’m not like, oh yeah, great.

I’m like, no, no, no, I gotta open that window because you are fundamentally not gonna be happy and fulfilled with one of those three windows closed, right? So I gotta open this, okay. Window. I gotta open this. Explore the world window so you can become a fulfilled, a fulfilled dog if you can explore the world and you can chill, but you can’t play with me.

Yeah, that’s a fundamental problem. We need to open that window. If you can play with me and you can play with the world, but you can’t fucking chill, we need to open that window. So I need to make sure that the dog possesses the three natural windows and is getting enough of those three, a balance of those three natural windows so they can be genetically and psychologically fulfilled and whole and complete and happy.

If that’s enough, great. Stop there. If you have a dog that’s reading the play wrong, let’s name those windows. This is called, okay. When I say, okay, you blow your drive into the world. When I say ready, you play with me. When I say Enough, you fucking chill. Let’s name these. Instead of doing some arbitrary obedience, just ’cause we can both agree on it, let me teach you the names of these windows so I can tell you what fucking.

Room you’re in so you know how to behave. This is the library, dude. This is Chuck E. Cheese. Fucking stop acting like you’re in a, like stop acting like you’re in Chuck E. Cheese. You’re in a library. I can tell them what these are because if I can get us to agree on the windows, I can work less. ’cause I only need work when you can’t read the window.

I only need work when you can’t read the play. But if my dog can’t read the play at all, they’re gonna be in the fucking work all the time. Teach them how to read the room and then once they know how to read, read the room. We’re left with less obedience. I still use obedience, but dude, I’ve given my dog.

I recalled my dog. I recalled my dog two days ago, right? A guy walked into the gym with a dog that I know is a problem, and I let people bring dogs in my gym. But if they’re not controlled, they have to be in a crate. And so this guy’s gonna walk in the gym with his dog. He’s just gonna walk to a crate, put ’em in the crate.

And I don’t know that dog. I don’t trust that dog. I’m not gonna trust that dog interacting with my dog. My dog’s social, but I don’t know him. And so I just downed him because if I didn’t down him, he’s at liberty. He thinks dogs are friendly, dogs are friendly, and so he’s gonna go walk up and introduce himself to that fucking dog if I don’t tell him not to.

’cause he is, he’s living life like a good social dog. So he can’t read the play correctly. So I have to go down and I downed him for 25 seconds while the guy walked in, put his dog in a crate. I’ve given my dog two commands in the last 10 days. You know what I mean? But that’s because he can read the play.

So if he was an asshole and like couldn’t read the play, I’d have to be giving him commands. My, my ax murderer killer dog jacks that we used to have, he was under orders a lot. Dude. His obedience was clean and crisp ’cause it had to be ’cause he was fucking special needs and couldn’t read the room. You know what I mean?

He, he was unable to do it, so I had to like, I had to help him quite a bit. But for me, I think what happens is people don’t investigate teaching the windows. They don’t investigate finding ways to get their dog on the same page. Obedience is the fastest, easiest way to make sure we’re on the same page and just get it done.

You can teach a dog a down in five minutes, teach a dog place in five minutes, and now we’re done with it and we just don’t have to worry about it. But then it’s too easy to avoid the conflict of misreading those rooms by going into obedience. And people just default, default, default. And now dogs are in obedience 24 7, and here’s the bitch.

These three natural windows are where fulfillment come to the dog. No dog is fulfilled by fucking place. You know what I mean? And so the issue is the more time we spend, the happiest dogs that are the most fulfilled, spend all their time in the three natural, the dog on the farm. Yeah. All three natural windows.

Nothing else. No work whatsoever, right? Dog in the city with a, you know, always in the work. Never gets these windows. They never get to explore. They never get to play. It’s problematic. So the more time, like they’re inversely proportional, I want to get the majority of my dog’s life and those three windows and avoid this as much as I can.

I need it and I need to use it. I need to train it. So I have it for when I need it, but I don’t wanna overuse it. I want to not avoid conflict of regular life by hiding in the work. I want to teach how to have harmony in our natural windows and avoid using the work as much as possible, as much as necessary, as little as possible.

That’s a Chad Mackin line right there. So, quick follow up question, Jay. Are you, you mentioned just briefly teaching, uh, the words for each of those windows. Yep. And is the idea there. We do this a lot with our clients. I’m big on classical conditioning people understanding that if something happens enough times, eventually your dog is gonna make that connection and they’re not gonna know it.

Right. But it’s gonna change their attitude. Well, I do it a lot with a leash. Let’s have a drag leash in the house. You don’t ever walk on this leash. You certainly don’t play on it. This leash through time is gonna become calming. Right. And the dog’s not gonna see the leash and say, I’ve decided to become calm.

They’re just gonna feel calm when that leash goes on. And they drag it is, are you using techniques like that? So the idea is when you, I forget what words you used, but the word for chill out in the house. Yes. Is the idea. They hear that and they feel it, and they truly become chill. Yeah. So what I tell people is this.

So this is the interesting process and you’re killing me, Roger. I’m giving my whole presentation right now. Oh no, we can’t do that. Oh no. Can’t do that. We’re in trouble. I’m with you. I’m fine. We’re in trouble. It’s good. And Nick, we can just end the question here that we can all wait until summer. I’ve said it.

I’ve said it so many times. It’s fine. It’ll be fine. So the idea is this, uh. Again, one of the biggest problems we have with our clients, ’cause this is some sneaky ways, when a, a teaching method is good, it gets more across than what you’re initially presenting to them. They think it’s like if you can make the, the, the, the food that your kid likes, if you can make it super healthy, but they don’t know it, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. They’re like, whoa, dude, this is fucking pudding. And you’re like, it’s really protein stuff, but don’t worry about it. You know, like when I tell clients, Hey man, we’re gonna make it super duper simple, bro. Here’s what we’re doing. We’re just doing these windows. I only need you to learn four words in your first week.

That’s all I need you to do. They’re like, cool. This is simple and easy, but there’s some lessons they’re taking on board without knowing it. And those lessons are super important. And that is this, most of our clients have no fucking awareness of their dogs whatsoever. They can’t read their dogs. They don’t know what’s ha, they have no idea what their behavior and inputs are doing to their dog.

They have zero awareness whatsoever. Her. And so I go, look, here’s the deal. For the first week when we’re doing your windows for the first week, I don’t want you to try to affect your dog. You’re not trying to tell them what window to get in. You’ve already been living like this for fucking two years.

We’re gonna continue to live like this for a week. But what I want you to do is I want you to watch, because there’s moments where your dog thinks those windows open. I need for you to be able to identify those moments. So where is it, dude, when you get up, when your, your dog, you say your dog pokes you in the leg with a tennis ball every night around 10:00 PM Okay, let’s, let’s, let’s pay more attention to that.

Is it 10:00 PM or did he start at nine 30? Like was he already doing this? Is it when you go? Yeah. Is it when the, the fucking dun of the fucking TV show goes off and he knows the show’s over? So now you’re available and he starts going, bitches available. Like, where does your dog think the window opens? I need you to find those moments if you can just identify them.

You know, I go get the toy. My dog gets crazy excited. Did he get crazy excited when you stood up? Did he get crazy excited when you opened the door? Did he get excited when you showed him the toy? Did he get excited when you went and waved? You know, when? When did he go? Now is the time. When did the dog think the window opened?

Because if you can find that, you can put your word just before the window opens. So if I take my toy out, when my dog sees the toy, he gets batshit crazy. I go like this, ready? Oop, and I take the toy out. But if my dog gets excited when I reach for the toy, doing this isn’t gonna help. My word has to come before the window opens.

So I tell him like, look, your job for the first week is just learn your dog. Pay attention. He’s gonna be going into and out of these three windows all day. Learn your dog’s rhythms, learn your dog’s triggers. What are the things that you do that makes him think a window opens? What are the things that somebody else does that may somebody knocks on the door, he goes batshit expressing into the doorway.

Cool, man. No problem. I don’t even care. Let’s just name. When the window opens, just for the first week, just name when the window opens to your dog. That’s all I want you to do. And what you’ll start to see is by the end of the week, you say the word and they start to act like you just pulled the toy out.

You say the word and they start to act like you just opened the back door to the garage. Do you know what I mean? You say the word and they start to act like somebody just knocked on the door. Cool. Now my word means the window is opening. And the second week they come back and I’m like, now. We tell them your signal is always true.

The cues are a liar. So if me taking the toy out was the cue that told you the window was opening, ready opens the window, and the toy opens the window. Now I just gotta prove to you that only one of them is true. Ready always produces a toy, but me doing this

doesn’t mean shit. The dog’s only listening to that cue because dogs are programmed to find the most reliable source of truth. They’re gonna find the most reliable truth. That’s what they’re gonna do. So if I take the toy out, every time I play, when I take the toy out, motherfucker’s gonna think I’m playing.

Even if I’m just taking it out to put it across the room. He’s like, fuck you, you took it out. That’s the signal. God damnit. That’s unfortunate. That’s not my signal. That’s not what I wanted. So I’ve gotta figure out what your cues are. Put my signal just before the cue. And then once my signal acts like my cue, I make the cue a liar.

And I let the dog know. This signal is the only one that you can believe and it’s no big deal. And I tell people to give them the feeling of the dog, to give ’em the feeling of the dog and why this is valuable and how, how playing with your dog violently five times a day can help them fucking relax.

’cause people are like, you’re gonna wind your dog up and make ’em crazy. The problem is, is anticipation and cues and how they generate anticipation. ’cause I tell people, imagine I was gonna do this. I tell you tonight, Hey, tomorrow I’m gonna pick you up and I’m gonna take you to the craziest fucking whatever, your bananas.

I’m gonna take you to Lollapalooza. I’m gonna take you to the strip club. I’m gonna take you to fucking the deer stand. Whatever. You’re like, oh my God, I can’t believe it’s happening. It’s my favorite thing in the whole fucking world. I’m gonna come and I’m gonna take you to that fucking spot tomorrow. I don’t know when I’m gonna get there.

I don’t know when it’s gonna be, right. I’m gonna pull into your driveway. I’m gonna count to five and I’m gonna leave. And if you’re not in the car, you’re fucked. What is your day like tomorrow? Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like what is your day like tomorrow? Every time you hear a noise out the front window, you’re like, is now, is now is the now.

You can’t concentrate on the TV show. You’re watching, you’re having a conversation with somebody, you can’t fuck focus ’cause you keep looking out the window. ’cause that might be Johnny and I don’t wanna miss it. ’cause I don’t wanna fucking, you can’t leave without me all day. You’re fucking all day. Right.

People would say it’s because you think of the event all day. No man, it’s ’cause you’re trying to be ready for the event. Because if I told you same story, I’m gonna pick you up tomorrow. I don’t know. When I’m take you to this thing, I’m gonna pull in your driveway and I’m gonna count to five, then I’m gonna fucking leave.

And you’re not in the car, you’re not gonna go, but, but I will text you when I turn onto your road and you believe him, you believe a hundred percent, he will text you. Now, what’s your day look like? Dude, you can go in the bathroom, you can sit in the back and read a book. You can fully, you can watch a movie and get completely, somebody could pull in your driveway and fucking turn around and you’re not gonna care.

’cause it’s not Johnny ’cause he hasn’t texted. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. That understanding of when a dog knows what the signals are, they can be cool. Half the problem is they’re reading the room. You’re not gonna text ’em and tell ’em what the time is. They’re like, I gotta figure out what the time is.

And all day, all day is now. Is it now? And you’re like, calm the fuck down. I can’t. ’cause I know it’s gonna happen. I’m freaking out. You’re like, dude, I’ll text you. I’ll let you know, dude, I’ll fucking tell you when it’s time. And then they can go, okay, cool. You’ll tell me. Perfect. Does that make sense? So that’s all I care about in the beginning, dude, I care about, man, let’s get these words down, you know?

And once they do that, honestly, most people don’t need more than that. Most people. If I gave them the four words that we work on first week, it’s, it’s one word for each window. Ready? Starts. Play with me. Okay. Starts Play with Away from Me. Enough starts. Chill and stay is my first work Word and stay is just non-positional.

I don’t give a shit. I open the door. Just don’t go out the door. I say Stay, and then I go, okay. Okay. It means go express. ’cause I know what I’m gonna see when I release you. You’re fucking going out. Right? Open the crate door. Stay. Shut it, shut it. Shut it, shut it. Okay. I mean, no problem. I teach. Stay at doorways and on objects.

Put ’em on the couch. Stay good. Okay. Take ’em off the couch. No problem. They’re gonna learn one word in each window. Ready? Enough? Okay. Stay. Honestly, most people, if they hammered all four of those, if they really got those words, honest to God, really robust and reliable. They don’t need anything else. Like, I don’t have a recall technically, but I can say ready and my dog will fly to me from a hundred yards.

Your dog’s doing a recall to get the toy. If I say ready, my dog’s gotta come to me to get the toy. It’s not a recall, but I get my dog back. If I need a heel, a tight attention focused heel, I say ready and my dog starts prancing next to me. ’cause he thinks I’m about to produce a tennis ball. I don’t have a heel, but I can get my dog past the shihtzu.

Do you know what I mean? My dog. I don’t need to place command ’cause my dog knows to be chill. When people show up at the door. I don’t need to sit to greet strangers ’cause he’s in enough and he is not gonna express drive in enough. I don’t, you know what I mean? I, there’s all these things I fucking don’t need anymore.

’cause I have the words I need my dog to stay while I open the car door. Stay. No problem. If those four words are given to a client and they’re really, truly good, most people don’t need anything else. And then if they need more than that, I’m like, cool. Now that we have that basic four window concept. If you still are in conflict with your dog, then we’re gonna have to go a little deeper.

We might have to add some things to the work window, like middle, front, down place, you know what I mean? We might have to add some, we might have to clarify if we’re still in conflict. We might have to add more clarification to the work window. I might have to go into my play window and start to add some things like differentiating between Yes.

And get it so I can start to control targeting and target acquisition. ’cause that can be very beneficial. So I might have to build out my play window and build out my work window a little bit more for the problematic dogs. But honestly, 90% of your clients will be fixed with four words if you actually got ’em.

You know, that’s when I love that. That’s great. Elevator pitch, bro. But it’s cool, man. It’s, it’s been very helpful. You know, Chad Mackin inspired me. When I first started learning with him. He gave me a line. He said, you’re not done training your dog till you can trust them at Liberty. And that’s like, okay, but how do we get there?

Mm-hmm. And that for me was developing this understanding of windows. ’cause Chad was talking about windows. You’re not done until you can get out of the work window and live your life in these windows. Do you know what I mean? Like crazy. First time I saw Ivan and Ivan came up here and did a not first time I saw him, first time I saw him blow people’s minds with the relaxation of his dog, not the work of his dog, the relaxation of his dog.

He came out for like a, a, a Mein National Championship. They held it in Maine. And he came out here and I went and watched, and I hung out with him. And his work is crazy, like watching the dog perform fucking bananas. But what was funny is how he didn’t have to put his dog in the work. His dog knew enough, his dog knew the ch, his dog knew the Cho window.

So he’s got a Malinois loose just standing around like this. Yeah, nothing. Just like hanging out, not under orders, not under command, not in drive. Everybody else has either got their dog in a focused heel, got a toy and a safety toy in their mouth, you know what I mean? They’re like wired dogs. And his dog is just like, like this, just chill.

And so many people were like, oh, is that your pet dog? Is that your retired dog? Is that? And he was like, no, that’s Ibor. That’s my competition dog. And they were just like, he’s just standing there like dead mellow dude. Dead mellow. And then it was fucking crazy ’cause he’s just hanging out for like two or three hours before the show.

His dog’s just mil mellow as fuck. And then they’re like, Ivan, you’re up. And he goes, you ready? And it’s like a werewolf movie. I was like, like that. He goes, E boy, you ready? You’re like, oh no. Oh shit. Like, well that’s a different animal right now. Holy shit. Goes out on the field. Fucking destroys. Wins the whole thing and then off the field he is like all done.

And Ibor just goes E rick. It’s like, cool man. And it just bananas. Bananas. But that level of harmony of like knowing where it goes and when it goes and not having to use hyper control all the time was really in inspir. Inspiring. Both Chad and Ivan both kind of push me this way, but this is just how I explain what I see the best people doing and how I can try to transmit it to other people.

That is awesome. A lot of good, a lot of good messages there. I think for people to hear. Sweet. If they make it past the pit bull part, they’ll get to this. We’re gonna lose half the people did. Did he say pig bull. This is bullshit. I’m turning it off. I put my dog in pajamas. How dare he? I put my dog in pajamas too.

Don’t worry about it. We put costumes on our dogs. Even the killer ones. We would put costumes on him. It’s okay. It’s okay. Jason, what do we still have to cover here? I’ve been asking a lot of questions. Do you have any burning a hole in your brain still?

Oh, you might be muted. Sorry. No, I think most of ’em got covered. Sweet. We’ve been at it, it’s almost a couple hours here. Yeah, it’s been a while. If only we could get Jay to talk a little. Yeah. Dude, there’s a, there’s, I told you every time I do one of these things, I have no plan. I don’t have notes or anything, and I’m always scared that I’m like, what am I gonna not talk about?

Well, what if I, what if today’s the day I fucking have nothing to say and then my wife goes and leaves.

She was like, wouldn’t be pretty crazy if you put three dog trainers on camera together. And there was nothing to talk about. Yeah. Right. No shit. That is true. Well, sick man. Well, uh, Jason, you usually do the plug about conference. You wanna tackle that again? Absolutely. It’s, it’s getting, uh. It’s getting closer and closer on my calendar.

So I think we’re, um, we’re, we’re coming up on it, Savannah, Georgia, 28th through the 31st. Uh, Jay, you’re gonna be speaking there? Yep. Uh, along with that one, I’ve been, that, that’ll be the first one I’ve been at since like 18 or 19, something like that, I think. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no. It whatever one, whatever one that got shut down for COVID, that was the one I, that was the first one I missed, so yeah.

Okay. I’m pumped to be able to go back. Yeah, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be a, a good time this year in Savannah. So, um, again, if, if you guys are on the fence, it’s getting crunch time, so, uh, be sure to come and, uh, see CJ and, and, um, uh, again, another incredible lineup of speakers this year. So, yeah, I might, Hey, on that note, I might bring my dog Sue as well.

So, uh, hotel is, people get to meet him dog friendly, so, and there’s someone else you should bring. Larry was telling me you guys are gonna be, I. Together right before that. Right? Right before the conference for a seminar somewhere, Larry. Yeah. I I literally like the weekend before. So drag him with you, man.

You can’t drag that motherfucker about the size of that dude. Like, we’re going this way. No, we’re not like, all right, dude, I’ll ask him. Motivate him. You, you talked a lot about all this positive reinforcement. Find a way to motivate ’em and get ’em there. Now look, if you had, uh, cannolis and could make like a little trail, you could probably get ’em there.

We’re gonna have cannolis for sure. Oh yeah, dude, tell ’em, tell ’em, tell ’em. Uh, desserts and scotch. You’ll get him Desserts and scotch done. Setting a, setting a Larry Trap. I don’t get it. Dude. If you, if you have, like, if you have whatever the coconut alcohol drink they serve at, at a Brazilian steakhouse or have that.

Scotch and like sweets of some sort. Done dude. You’ll get ’em. You could get em into what city? Any van with that. What city are you gonna be at before this? Boston? Uh, Boxborough. It’s right outside Boston. Okay. So we just have to like find a restaurant at like every city in between, like get ’em 50 miles south, a little bit south.

Pretty soon he is in Savannah. Yeah, right. It won’t be hard. I think he’s gotta leave to go back to Tennessee. Isn’t that down that direction anyway, it ish. Yeah. Sort of should be like, hey, just add on a little, you know what I mean? Give him a gift certificate to somewhere about 20 miles past his house.

Closer to like, you’re already halfway there, dude. Uhhuh.

Awesome. Well thank you for taking all the time today, Jay. This was awesome. Yeah, of course, man. Anytime. Absolutely, always happy to talk with anybody. Well looking forward to seeing you at conference. Perfect man. I’ll see you guys there. I. All right. Thanks for listening everybody.