Welcome to Dog Pro Radio Radio. Welcome to Dog Pro Radio. I’m Matt Covey and my co-host Jason Purgason is here. Hey, how’s everybody? I’m doing well. I hope. Hope you are as well. We don’t have Fabian today. I, I don’t know. I picture him in a bite suit. Yeah. Mark’s celebrating. I picture Fabian in a bite suit with like a Malinois on each arm, maybe one on each leg, I don’t know, with a cell phone in his hand, like emailing people and have carrying on a conversation.

Is is that what you’re thinking, Jason, to probably carrying a laptop with him as well? Yeah, yeah. Like a party. He is a busy dude who knows what’s going on. Yeah, he is. He is perpetually busy. That is for sure. Yeah. That’s good. That’s what happens when you’re important, right? [00:01:00] Yeah. I guess. Well, we have an awesome guest today.

We have Mark Goldberg. I, I would guess Mark thought I was your guest. I’ll do do a quick introduction. I would guess all of our listeners probably know who Mark is. He’s been involved in the IACP forever. He is former president. He is been instrumental in the group, done a lot of good for the group. He’s also a dog trainer extraordinaire.

He wrote some books with the monks and New Skeet, which is pretty badass. So we wanna talk about that for a while today. Um, and Mark does a lot of work with Ecos and I’ve, I’m just gonna tell you, mark, I’ve heard through the grapevine from a couple of people that you changed their opinion. They went from eco skeptics, and I’m talking about not just, uh, clients, but trainers went from skeptics to eco believers after watching you.

That’s, that’s great. Right? That’s really impressive. And that is huge for our industry. So I want to spend some time there today for sure. Oh, you bet. But I guess introduce yourself. Tell us your origin story. We are excited to chat today. Alright, well thank you for having me. And I’ll, I’ll just [00:02:00] quick hit that topic of E-commerce briefly and then we’ll end up meandering off of that and circling back because really, um, the, the tools that we use paint the picture that canvases the dog, but this is art and there are any number of tools that you can use.

And, uh, the e-commerce is just a tool. It’s just another way of connecting to the dog. And if you’re artful with it, it can be a good tool if you’re not, well, it’s a power tool, so it’s better left in the box if you don’t know what you’re doing. Um, and as far as eco skeptics go, I think maybe the reason that I’ve converted a few people along the way is the biggest eco skeptic that you would’ve ever wanted to find would’ve been me.

Um, I thought they were dreadful. So pretty much any tool that I used to condemn when I was a younger trainer, I am adopted as an older trainer and just refined a technique, um, that, that pleases me and I, and I think the dogs too. So certainly we’ll have to talk about that. But I. I think first [00:03:00] we have to go back and talk about dogs.

Why dogs? And, um, I’m gonna tell you a quick story, um, about the first real deep connection that I had with the dog, which, in which in my books I’ve always described as my dog Gus. He’s, I’ve been kind of become like a kind of a, actually I should find this picture because this photograph of me and the dog.

Yeah. Here it is. Um, this is me when I was 14 years old. So this picture is, I think from 1973 or 1974. Uh, and it’s in, let Dogs Be Dogs. Um, he, he was my first dog that was mine and I really felt, you know, that he was the first super deep connection that I had to dogs. And certainly he’s the one who started me on my path to becoming a trainer, which I’ll tell you more about.

But I wanna skip ahead, um, from, from that photograph, I wanna skip ahead. Oh, about 30 years [00:04:00] and, uh, 30 years later after that photograph was taken, I find myself, uh, on the board of directors and an instructor at the local dog obedience, the local a KC Obedience Club. And there’s a colleague given, uh, his owner a hard time in the class next to mine.

And every time this fellow makes a right turn. That colleague bites him in the left leg. Every right turned, that guy got nailed in the, in the left leg. Um, and, you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t a Fabian bite and hold, you know, but it was a good, it was a good solid, you know, frontal connection. And I, and he just, I could see that he was just getting upset and he just pulled off to the side and, uh, he really had no help.

So I went over and I, you know, I, I offered to help him and he said, yeah. And I’m like, look, the, the one thing is if this dog tries to bite me, which I’m pretty sure he is gonna, I’m gonna have to correct him to just show him. That’s not what we do in this situation. And, uh, he’s like, [00:05:00] you do what you gotta do and hand me the lease.

You very happily hand me the le So I make the first right turn and the dog looks at me and I’m not a, not a hard turn. I wasn’t trying to take him off his feet. I’m just one turn to the right. And, um, the dog gives me a little bit of glare. Um, and I make my next right turn and the dog gives me a little bit of glare.

And on the third right turn, I was ready for him. ’cause I read the dog. I just knew what he was gonna do. And I knew he was coming in for the bite. He just didn’t know me well enough to bite me on the first or the second, you know, turns. But he just couldn’t resist himself. So I was ready for him on the third turn and it just flicked the leash in such a way as to take him off balance.

And he kind of tumbled. He wasn’t prepared for that. And he tumbled down. And, um, as he hit the deck, he looked at me, I. Um, the softness in the, the, all the hardness was gone from the, on all the hard, all the glare, all the, all the squint. And he looked at me with these [00:06:00] gooey, melty colie eyes, and I petted him.

He got up, we made another couple right turns the tail was going, he was super happy. Handed the leash back to the owner. I ran outside the building and burst into tears. Hard, ugly, nutty, you know, just ugly crying. I’m a 40-year-old man, or almost 37-year-old man, and I’m bawling, you know, tucked behind a column at the entrance to dog training club.

Um, because I had a flood of memories. Uh, I had hidden memories. It’s, it’s pretty amazing. The mind is an amazing, like an onion, you know? Yeah. We’ve got layers and layers and like, and, um, and all of a sudden, at that exact moment, I knew why I was a dog trainer. And I always thought it was ’cause of gu and the broken leg and the car, and which I could tell you about mom sending me to dog school when I was 12, all like that.

But now it wasn’t that. It was, uh, my, my par there was [00:07:00] I had a very peaceful childhood until it wasn’t peaceful and then it was very dramatic. Um, and suddenly. And, um, there wasn’t a lot of divorce. There was no divorce in 1967. It wasn’t, it was an unheard of phenomena. You know, we were, we were not kidnapped, but we were removed from our home, my sister and I, and we were, um, placed with an, with my great aunt.

Um, so we were away from home and, um, there were no kids in that neighborhood. It was one of those neighborhoods, everybody’s old and moved away, but there was a collie chained to a doghouse next door. And I was nine years old, and I spent most of my days in that doghouse with that collie. And I even remembered his name while I was crying outside the, you know, and it was, and that collie, his name was Tippy, and he used to look at me with those same gooey, soft, loving, colly eyes, because I was all he had that summer he was chained to a doghouse.

His kids were moved [00:08:00] away, you know, they brought him in at night, they fed him. He was clean, but he had no one to love him. Mm-hmm. And I loved him, and he loved me right back for it. And it was those eyes, you know? So I, I really feel that, um, when I recovered emotionally, you know, from this flood of memories, um, I realized it, it, it, it’s, it is as pathetic as that bumper sticker that says who saved who.

It’s literally, you know, which I, I snark at people when I see that, but. Then I’m crying outside dog training club, realizing, oh my God, I’m one of them. That, that fricking dog saved my life. You know, it was the first connection. Every kid needs a dog though, and I, I don’t know, I feel bad for kids that don’t have a pet, for whatever reason, to, you know, have a dog to hang out with or do something with.

And I mean, I grew up a dogs and Jason, I’m assuming you had dogs as a kid too, right? Oh, yeah. We had, we had lots of dogs. Yeah. You know, and my, my training partner, my business partner Patrick, he has a son who’s an [00:09:00] only child and they’ve got two dogs. And, um, Caleb, my, my little nephew, I call my little nephew, he has learned so much about how to interact and share with other living beings by learning how to care for those dogs.

You know, he’s four years old, but he is learned how to be gentle and kind, um, because of the presence of those dogs in his house. And so I think it’s really critical for, for children learning. So, um, anyway, a few years later, uh, mom’s feeling guilty because, you know, she’s raising divorced kids. And I took full advantage of her guilt, um, because she did not like dogs.

She did not like animals at all, you know, but it was inevitable. My, my father was born in the year of the Chinese year of the dog, and I was born in the Chinese year of the dog. And so, you know, it was, and, and his, his people were, are, were dog people. Um, and so it was inevitable. I just nagged her enough to the point where, you know, she just had to relent.

What I really wanted was a collie. Okay. I didn’t even know [00:10:00] why I wanted a Collie, but what I really wanted was a collie. Well, now we know why I wanted a collie, but, um, we had a Volkswagen and I had a sister and mom was afraid she couldn’t fit us all into the vehicle, into the, into the bug. Uh, she was unwilling to rehome my sister, which was unfortunate.

But, um, so she got me a sheie and, uh, and my Sheie at five months of age ran into the streak, got hit by a car. That picture was taken after that point. That dog lived 18 years old from 11. I was 11 when I got him, and I didn’t lose him until I was 29. Imagine the journey, you know, the, from the age of innocence of a child all the way through into adulthood.

And the good thing is most people can’t tell the difference between a Cali and a she. So it’s kind of the same thing, right? To the average person? Definitely, definitely not then, especially then, because it was an unknown breed, you know, really it was, it was a rare breed at the time. But, um, she had to send me to dog school ’cause he got hit by a car.

And, [00:11:00] um, when he got better, when he got healed up from that, um, he had to learn. And when I started going to dog school, I, I thought I was, I was only a 12 at that point and I thought I was pretty damn. I thought I was a, a hot shit trainer, you know, I thought I was really quite good. Um, because I had the best dog.

I won the first prize outta this huge group of students, all of whom are way older than me. Um, and it, it wasn’t until some time later that I realized I, I was just a goofy kid and I happened to have a really good dog. But, um, it, it really hooked me on training dogs because this was my best friend. I wanted him to be safe.

And then my ego started to get stroked. Li listen, I’m looking, there’s a shelf above where I’m looking here with a bunch of very tarnished silver trophies. They’re almost black with tarnished because dog shows, back in the sixties and seventies, you, you didn’t [00:12:00] get little junky toys. You got trophies that were made out of silver.

And so I got a bunch of them right up there. I’m looking at ’em right now and they’re all tarnished. But what’s very bright in my mind is that dog and that friendship and what he taught me and what he taught me was, I do this for love. I don’t do it for that junk that I, that I still, I, he didn’t do it for the junk, you know, he did it for the love.

And so I started out training dogs because I thought it was cool to make my dog do stuff. And over the years that I worked with that and then other dogs, I, I learned the privilege that they were granting me of collaboration. That I wasn’t making them do stuff, that I was motivating them to wanna please me in ways that made little sense to them.

But, but I needed for one reason or another. And so that dog popped me an enormous amount. About compassion, about how to be a decent human being, um, about how [00:13:00] to just be better on every level of my life because he believed in me and he trusted in me. And, and when I was wrongheaded about something, he was stubborn, that dog.

And he would teach me, this is not how you get what you want. Figure it out. And um, and so really I got hooked on the good stuff because of him eventually. And it was why does the dog consent to be trained? Why and how to, how to, how to get that consent, how to motivate that dog, how to connect to that dog, why do they care about us?

Um, it just fascinated me and that has just been my, my, my weird little obsession for all these years. Yeah. I think it’d be good as we talk today to, to jump into motivation and just think that through. ’cause at least for pet dog trainers, increasing motivation is sometimes not a big focus, right? Because you have your clients that are saying, make this dog not bite me in the leg anymore.

Right. Or not jump on me or [00:14:00] not bark or whatever. And motivation is sometimes, uh, the, the feels like the least important thing to some trainers. So Interesting. That’s kind of the first place you went. Well, it was the second place I went after my dog taught me, you’re not gonna get what you want this way.

This give you a quick example of that and then we’ll move into your point. Um. I, uh, I had won a bunch of trophies at this point, and I sort of got a taste for winning you, you know, I liked it. Um, and I was only 13, 14 by this time, but I’m becoming known in the area, and, uh, I liked it. I had an ego, so I liked it.

Um, and I remember one day I came home from school. It was a Friday, the next day we, we were to have a dog show. And so I came home, I grabbed the dog, I snapped on a leash. I took him outside. He was very good at healing, was one of the things that he was very, he was just very, very good at it. And, um, and I just [00:15:00] told him to heal and I just wanted to do a little pattern to warm ’em up and then move into it was, uh, I, I was training in for open the, the CDX title At that point, I don’t train for titles anymore.

I train for fun, love and profit, but, uh, certainly not, you know, not titles now, but I respect it and I did it. So anyway, that dog would not heal and he knew how to heal and he was great at it. And then I’m like, heal, and he won’t do it. So I say it even harder, heal. And I re and I, and, and he and I started to move out and he just planted himself and it was very weird.

It was just super, this had never happened before and it was super weird. And so I did probably for the first time, the best thing a trainer can do when he or she is confused. And that is to just stop. To just stop. Faint. And so I stopped and I thought, ’cause like this dog was clearly gonna let me kill him.

He, he was like, he was 20 pounds, but he would’ve let me kill him before he [00:16:00] would’ve healed. And, um, and he was my, he, I slept with this dog. He was my best friend. So, um, I kept thinking, what’s different? What’s different? I, I come home from school, I play with my dog. I train my dog. I come home from school, I play with my, and play with him.

Forgot to play with the dog. I always play with the dog. I don’t train him. I play with him and then I train him. Could that possibly, I took the leash off, I lay, I sat down. He was like, you looked at me like, you know, screw you. I like, I’m like, come on buddy. Get up in my lap. And he jumped up in my lap, lick my face.

I scruffed him up a little bit. He, um, we had apple trees and, uh, I, I didn’t eat a ball. I was at an apple, you know, so we planned such with an apple for a few minutes and then, um, like put the leash back on heel. And he looked at me and he said, now you understand. And he did. And he was brilliant and he was good.

And yes, we won a prize the next day. But the best prize I ever got [00:17:00] off of that dog was him explaining to me that day, I do this for love, you do it for other reasons maybe, but I do this for love. And, um, and that was when I realized that I, I, I had approached it entirely wrong. You know, Philadelphia. I’m from Philadelphia, the Philadelphia Dog Training Club.

It was competitive, very, very competitive. Very, I mean, my mentor there was the first fellow, whoever, the first person who ever put a, an o an ot, an obedience trial championship on a dog in the whole history of the A KC, he took the first one. Um, his name was Roth Klippel, so he was a great trainer. Um, but it was a very competitive environment.

Um, and, and finally I learned like, this is not about competition for me. This is about motivating the dog to want to please me and then getting the most out of that dog. So, yes, no client ever came to me and said, you know, I wanna a really motivated dog. They all come, or most of them [00:18:00] come with that list that you said, biting, jumping, recall, counters, digging, you know, whatever.

You know, that, that long list. Um, and then, and of course I wanna work on that list, and I do, but I don’t attack that list head on. I work on everything else that surrounds it because something causes the dog to do those behaviors. And usually it’s just lack of clarity. They, they just don’t know what they’re supposed to do instead.

And if you teach them that, then it becomes much easier to stop the stuff you don’t want ’em to do. And then in the meantime, I don’t know that dog thinks that you’re a genius because you know what he wants and you give it to him in return for what you want. So, I don’t know, life becomes, dog training is more like play or trade.

The, the older I get, the less serious it becomes. That’s seems to be a lot of things in life though, right? As you get older, you get a little more perspective on things that seemed really important or really serious when you were young [00:19:00] because you want to, you, you want to do good. Um, you’ve got ego involved.

You, you, you, you’re fighting through imposter syndrome. I mean, I, I spent, I used to, imposter syndrome is hard. You have to like really deal with that when you’re like a 14, 15-year-old kid and you are driving to your client’s house on a Schwinn bicycle with baseball cards in the spokes. I mean, you have to be, it’s, it can be a little hard for them to take you seriously when you show up on your bike.

Yeah. You know? How do you feel though about imposter syndrome in general in the dog training field? Not just for a kid, but like, let’s say a 25-year-old trainer, a 30-year-old trainer, relatively young, and a lot of people go through that. What do you think causes that and, and how do you solve it? Well, first, let me say this.

In my opinion, the best people go through it. The, the most dangerous people are the people who have never had a doubt about their abilities in their entire lives. They just have the conviction that they’re right because they’re right. [00:20:00] Um, those are the people who don’t know what they don’t know. Um, and although I think a sense of confidence is a good thing, I do.

Uh, I, I think that if you’re listening to us right now and you feel like sometimes you suffer from imposter syndrome, well, welcome to the club. I feel like that makes you a self-reflective, self-aware person, which is the best, makes for the best kind of trainer because we have to absorb the vibe from the dog, which makes us sensitive people at our, at best, you know?

So at the end of the day, I’ll tell you just a quick story. When, how do you get over it? I, I don’t know. I’ll let you know if I ever do. I like that. I remember one time guys, I was, uh, typing, I was, you know, writing one of the books and, um, and I had this moment where I just, you know, wrote a paragraph that really just nailed what I was trying to, you know, explain it.

It just felt kind of a little inspired as opposed to other times when I had to labor and, you know, rewrite and tear up and start [00:21:00] over. This one just flowed outright and I push the button for the period, and I was like, this is so weird. I type it and it goes into a book, and when it goes into a book, it must be true because it’s in a book.

And I remember thinking, whoa, this is, this is, you know, this is the matrix. I, I, I, I need to like, stop analyzing that point. You know, I, I say it and therefore like automatically goes into a book. I need, I need to really believe it, experience it, and have, have, have what I write, be the product of all of experience.

So I feel that I’m actually know what I’m talking about, but I, I wanna say, I think we all. Suffer from that to a certain degree. And the, the real prick is to forge a head anyway. And in most cases, if the dog has a pretty good opinion of you, you must be doing something right. That dog is afraid of you or doesn’t want to be near you, you might wanna reconsider, you know, it’s a [00:22:00] good, good framing there.

And to me, I think some of it just stems from, and at least for me, is that you always in theory are getting better at your craft. Right? And I look at how I am today and I, I think I’m way better than I was five years ago, which means I probably wasn’t that great then. And I’m way better than I was 10 years ago in, I started in 2006.

I am so much better than I was in 2006. But then it makes you kind of question, well, if that keeps happening in five years, why I look back and say, wow, you weren’t very good five years ago. ’cause we’re always, it’s a journey, right? You’re always getting better and learning things. Yeah, no, there’s definitely this point where I, I, I haven’t had multiple evolutions in my training techniques and philosophies and stuff.

And each time I’ve had to go, oy, oy, I wish I could apol, I wish I could apologize to the last 500 dogs because I found a better way to do this. You know, or I’m better at this now, whatever that is. Um, so I think, yeah, people of good conscience have that feeling. [00:23:00] But it can assure you if you started in 2006 by 2007, you need more than the clients did.

You know? So, and that’s part of the trick. But, you know, ultimately this is such an, this is such an amazing, uh, profession really, because the variables are absolutely endless. There are millions and millions of variables and we as trainers, we’re processing them a lot, a lot of the time in real time. Um, which is to say the do like that Holly, who on the third right turn, I knew he was gonna bite me before he knew he was gonna bite me.

Well, I was just experience and sensitivity to situations like that. Um, and so our database gets richer and deeper the more we’re exposed to. But, um, you know, I’ll bring, I’ll, I’ll bring in ISCP for a quick moment. Um, the amount of knowledge that, that is shared today through an organization like IACP [00:24:00] versus when I had to walk to dog training school, uphill in the snow both ways alone, barefoot bleeding, you know, it’s amazing.

Like what we today offer dog trainers, uh, the educational opportunities. It’s, it’s, it’s stunning. Um, because literally in, in, in my era, um, all I had was a couple or a few books eventually. The dog training club let me in eventually. But that wasn’t until I started beating them, until I started beating them at dog shows because they didn’t want a little kid, you know, in their club.

So, um, I have to say, in, in the, and if you, if you go back 30 years, dog trainers did not, it was all secretive. Whatever you knew, you kept it because you wanted to sell it or you wanted to compete with it, and you didn’t want anybody else to know your stuff. Um, there were a few books, thank God for Blanche Saunders and training you to train your [00:25:00] dog written in like 62.

You know, she really helped me out and, uh, even Keeler who, who wrote his stuff in the very early seventies, late sixties, but there was very little information. But today, um, man, at every IACP conference that I’ve ever been to, and, and I went to like the first 15 of them. Um, I only missed the first one started with number two through, I don’t even remember how many, um, the number of people I met, the amount of information I gather.

It’s, it’s stunning. Even in our journal and, uh, now with a podcast, there’s just so much information available. It’s a, it’s a beautiful thing. It, it gives a lot of opportunity to younger, newer, even older trainers like myself to, to learn new things and meet new people. It’s a great thing. Yeah. Back in, backing up a little bit to one thing you said that sort of resonated.

You know, as trainers oftentimes we are sort of judged by our success. Um. I think that’s really [00:26:00] kind of a, a bad way for others to look at it. I get students coming through my program a lot and they’re like, yeah, you know, you must have had a lot of success doing this and you know, you’re able to do this because of that.

And, and I tell ’em all the time, it has nothing to do with the successful outcomes I had with dogs. I’ve simply had the opportunity to make way more mistakes than you have. Mm-hmm. And that’s, that’s why, that’s why I’m able to do what I can with this dog, because I’ve learned from all those mistakes. So going back to you talking about apologizing to the last 500 dogs, you know, I’ve been there as well.

Um, and, and looking at things and, and questioning why, why did I do it that way? And why is this, um, so evolutionary at the moment, I guess? Well, it’s so easy to get, um, it, it, it’s very, very, in dog in dog training, it’s super easy to get what we call confirmation bias. You do a thing a [00:27:00] specific way and it works.

You get what you need. And so it confirms for you that that way works and then you become biased that that’s the way that works because that’s my experience. And, um, and so we become biased that that is the way it will work. And then we may criticize or poo p tools and techniques or approaches that are very different than what has been working for us.

Um, and that’s a personality flaw. Um, and, and it is an ego flaw. I don’t know. We are three men. I, I think it’s a little stronger in dudes than it is in women. I certainly know that it was in me, and I’m gonna tell you a quick story about how a woman cut me right down to size. Um, so in the nineties, you know, I had been training dogs for, you know, quite a while.

And, and when I was in, even when I was in college, I trained my way through college for, you know, spare money. And I always had, uh, you [00:28:00] know, clients for, for, uh, private clients. But then I moved to Chicago from Philadelphia and, and I had this Greyhound that I adopted off the track. And, uh, she was obviously fast and she needed a recall for, you know, obvious reasons.

So, um, I do some inquiries and I learned that there’s a local, there’s a little local dog trainer in the area who runs a class. And I’m thinking, okay, I’m gonna go, I’m gonna go to her class, but I really don’t need the instruction. I just need the distractions of the class so I can do my thing. Um, and I’m also thinking like, I’m from Philadelphia, the East coast, that what, and what you need to know is, is that a KC dog obedience was born in Philadelphia and New York City.

It was born in those places. It all spread west from there, starting in the late forties, early fifties. Um, and I [00:29:00] knew a lot of the people who had been on the, like I said, the first option, you know, was, was the guy who taught me what, you know, half what I knew back then anyway. And I thought, what can this little local, you know, silly woman dog trainer in the middle of the Midwest, what can she know?

But she’s convenient, so I’m gonna go, um, yeah, her name, uh, was and still is Mary Missouri. She is one of the founders of the IACP. There were seven people, uh, uh, Martin Deley and Patrick Tricker and, and, uh, Cindy Deon and, and Mary Missouri and a, and just a couple of others who founded the ICP. And, uh, and she knew a lot, but I didn’t know that.

I didn’t know that at the time. This is actually even, I think right before the ICP. Anyway, so I’m in class, I’m doing my thing, she’s teaching her nonsense, which was nonsense. And I’m doing my thing, which is, you know, what I, what I know how to do. And, um, after the second class, she comes up to me and she goes, I see you’ve trained [00:30:00] dogs before.

And I said, well, yeah, I have. She goes, your timing is excellent. I said, yeah, I know. Thanks. She goes, but you’re not doing what I’m teaching. I said, well, you know, I got my own thing. She says, and I could see that, you know, you know what you’re doing. She goes, but could you do me a favor? This is where she sandbagged me, this woman, she said, I’d be really appreciative if you would evaluate my method, but you, and you know, give me some feedback.

Am I any good at this? She said, but you’re not gonna be able to do that unless you try it. So I’m just curious on your feedback about what it is that I’m teaching. Well, little did I know what, what, what I learned. I learned from Russ Klippel, what she learned. She learned from Bill Keeler in person. And um, I know Keeler is a bit of a controversial figure, but she knew him quite well.

She trained with him, she watched him a lot. And she said the dogs loved him, and you could never see the correction. She goes, it was just, everything was so gentle and so [00:31:00] seamless that you never, we’ll talk about his book later, which is not gentle and, uh, it is, uh, controversial. But he was a, a very, very, um, nuanced trainer from what she tells me.

And anyway, so that’s what she was teaching, the version of it that she learned, which was, anyhow, so I’m like, all right, fine, I’ll, I’ll let you know if you’re any good. Well, I’ve been training dogs long enough to know how long it takes to teach a heel a sit, whatever it is. And, um, so I start actually doing what she’s teaching and I was like, oh my God.

Oh no. I’ve been training dogs for like 15 years and this is better. And I don’t know how to do it, but I know it’s, I, I already know it’s better ’cause I’m getting better compliance faster. And I’m not losing attitude. I’m not losing attitude. Um, so I just became a student, you know, I realized I’m not, I’m no teacher, I [00:32:00] need to be a student.

So I spent the next couple years learning all of that stuff. And then, you know, eventually the ECO came along and she, she did it again to me, you know? Um, but I was so appalled about the idea of the eco that I’ll tell that story, how upset I was about ecos. Uh, I’ll tell that a little later when we talk about books.

But I guess what I’m trying to say is I had confirmation bias that the way I trained dogs works because it did. And therefore I rejected everything else. But the fact is, is that there’s a rainbow of things that you can do with different dogs. And the only question is, what does this particular dog, what the dog in front of you?

Well, what’s gonna work best for him, number one. And number two, if somebody knows something that works quicker, faster, and most importantly of all, happier than what I know, I wanna learn that. And I’ve had to do that a few times in my life. And, um, I, I, um, and I think that’s the mark of a serious [00:33:00] trainer, is somebody who is always wants to see, well, if, if you don’t like what I do, show me what you do.

And if it’s better, teach it to me. I wanna learn it. I think it’s, putting ego aside is hardest the first time. And then once you’ve done it and you realize it’s not a bad thing, to put your ego aside and really become a student again, or learn from someone or realize that they know things you don’t know.

It gets easier through time. But I, I think if you resist it, it’s, it’s a lot harder. That’s so true. Because I was a little crushed when, you know, when this lady from, you know, Podunk, Illinois, um, just said, you know, well, you could at least try this and tell me if I’m any good. And that’s how she fooled me into trying it.

’cause if she’d have said It’s better do it, I wouldn’t have, um, ego, male, ego. I wouldn’t have done it. But she sandbagged me. And, um, and I had a decision to make at that point, and I knew I did. I knew I was right at a crossroads right then, uh, 15 years later, I was, [00:34:00] I either had to honor my ego or the dog, and I had to pick one because I couldn’t have both.

I couldn’t keep my, you know, I couldn’t keep my, my fortitude and I, and, and get the results that I, I thought that this was capable of getting, that I was capable of getting, if I would learn a new approach. And so, uh, luckily the dog was more important to me, and that’s where I, that’s where I, I made my decisions based more on my dog’s needs than my own.

And that can be hard to do, but it works for me. Alright, well, why don’t we pivot and let’s start talking about the monks. I know when I was, you know, getting ready for this interview, I was just excited to hear about these monks. I mean, there’s so many questions. So, and maybe a lot of listeners already know more than I do, but I’ve got a thousand questions.

So I guess fill us in on how did you, how’d you meet the monks? What was that like? How did you get hooked up with them? And we can figure it out from there. Okay, [00:35:00] great. And then, uh, then hit me with any questions you want. Well, uh, first the, the fir by the way, um, I always tell people that’s the monk. I’m the good looking one.

So this is the way that you can tell us apart because since I grew the beard, we’ve become very, and, and I’ve gotten older. Um, we’ve become very difficult to tell apart. Um, so, well, way back in the distant past I had, uh, Jason’s job, uh, Jason’s, you’re the current president of the IACP. Um, my, my condolences and blessings because, well, you know what, real quick, as an aside guys, or you’re listening to this, I, I know your ICP members, a a lot of you, it’s a wonderful organization.

I highly recommend it, but, um, governing, uh, a dog trainer’s organization is a little bit like a herding cat. It, it is. It’s not so easy. Uh, ’cause we’re all very committed and we all have ideas. So, um, but I was the president of the IACP, uh, at this particular, uh, time and [00:36:00] we had a conference, the monks. Of new Sket were to be inducted into our International Hall of Fame.

Now, um, the International Hall of Fame is for, uh, people who have had impact on an international level in, uh, the world of dog. And by the way, my books with the monks now being translated into Polish and are sold in 37 different countries. Wow. Wow. So this was the, the, this is the reach that I’ve been able to get into the world, you know, via my relationship with the monks.

The monks were to be inducted. Now the Monk, um, live in a monastery in upstate New York, about 45 minutes northeast of Albany in the mountains, um, about seven miles from the Vermont border. So it’s like New York, new England, where, where their monastery is. [00:37:00] And I knew of the Monk, uh, because I grew up reading their books.

The first book they ever wrote, I, I have a copy of it on the shelf, right, right in front of me, um, is called How To Be Your Dog’s Best Friend. And that, that book sold like a million copies. So it was a huge book. Um, and by the way, what I loved about it, uh, just to tell you a little bit about The Monk’s philosophy, is, um, that book, not didn’t, every book before that, every book before that, including the killer book, every book told you how to train a dog.

How to get a sit, how to get a heel, how to get a dad. Just told you step by step what to do. But it didn’t tell you why. It didn’t tell you anything about the dog’s psychology. It didn’t tell you any of the nuances about the human canine relationship. It was just like a nuts and bolts 1, 2, 3, like a cookbook.

Um, and along came how to Be Your Dog’s best Friend. Think of the title. It’s not, it isn’t How to Train a Dog. [00:38:00] It’s How to Be Your Dog’s Best Friend. Um, and so it, it talks all about the, the human dog relationship, the history, um, how dogs think, how dogs relate to people, how people can relate to dog, and then ultimately an integrated training system on, on how to help that dog feed in your home.

So that was a brilliant book. This is a brilliant book. And so I was in awe of these people. Um, they, they breed German Shepherds. They trained dogs of all breeds and they, um, and they write books. Well anyway, so Brother Christopher, uh, had written a book called The Art of Raising a Puppy, which is the finest work on puppy rearing that I think that you could find.

There are other good books, but his is the encyclopedic covers everything. And, uh, anyway, he was the monk nominated by the group of monks to come to the conference, [00:39:00] and I met him there. I was a little, you know, I’ll be honest, I fangirled a little bit. I’m the president’s organization, we’re gonna induct them.

But I was a little, you know, I just stopped myself from asking, you know, for autographs and, uh, uh, but what I found really, really surprised me, uh, which was Brother Christopher, who you know, is very, very well known, has been on television, newspapers, the New York Times. He is, he’s a New York Times bestselling author.

Uh, which for somebody like me who, who likes to write is like, you know, it’s pinnacle. Um, he was very humble and very interested to hear from other trainers and talk to people. In other words, he was a dog trainer just like us. You put two dog trainers at a table. We’re talking techniques, tools and dog poop in 10 minutes.

Um, and we just know how to connect to one another because it’s a weird life we have, I dunno if you know this, this is a panel of weirdos. It’s a weird life that, that very few [00:40:00] people understand it. We’re the only people on earth who go to the grocery store and then pack our groceries into dog crates who are completely used to, we hear stuff rattling around in the dryer.

We know it’s not coins. We know it’s dog food. Um, it, it’s just an unusual life that we share. And he shares that. So I kind of wanna rename our show to a panel of weirdos. Oh yeah, we definitely, we definitely have a title for this episode. No doubt about it. There you go. Well, I’m glad I. But we, so it was just such a good immediate connection.

Um, and, um, r right away, um, he invited me to the monastery to visit. And I, and I wanted to do that. And, and so, uh, I did, I, I went, I, ’cause I’m one of these people who, um, Wendy Vol hard, uh, very shameless dog author, dog trainer, wonderful. She’s in that hall of fame also with her husband. They wrote a bunch of books.

Sh she wrote Dog Training for Dummies, but many, many other great books. [00:41:00] Um, she, when she invited me to her farm, I just got in the car. I’m like, ’cause if there’s an amazing dog trainer somewhere and I’m invited, I’m going like, that’s better to me than a cruise or a, you know, or a trip to Paris. Like, you know, let me go to somebody else’s farm.

And when I got to the monastery, I was just like blown away, you know, by this place as, as so many people are who visit. Anyway, um, I, at that time I was doing eco seminars with, uh, with, um, Martin Deley, who was, uh, I was the president of the ICP and he was the executive director at that time, also a founder of ICP.

And, um, so we invited Brother Christopher to come down to an eco seminar and, uh, and he came and then he, this is the way he tells the, his part of this story. Um, remember I told you how, like blown away I was when I started training like Mary Missouri and I realized everything I know isn’t wrong. But it can be tweaked and enhanced in significant ways for better results.[00:42:00] 

Well, he had been training dogs for 25 years and had written bestselling books, and he told me he had that same experience working with Martin and me, that he was like, in a way, oh my God, like I’m a moral, ethical person. I gotta tweak things. Was better for the dogs. Doesn’t matter that it’s painful, we gotta do it.

Um, and so we worked together and I went there many times and until, um, he just became an extension of me and me of him. And, um, so what happened was I really just started going to the monastery to help them, um, kind of tweak their, uh, dog training program. But, and the more I And were you still living in Chicago or the Chicago suburbs at this point?

Yeah, when I still do. I mean, I, I still do. Um, but So you traveling frequently to New York? Yeah. Yeah. I haven’t taken the pledge. Uh, my boyfriend insists that I do not become a monk, so that’s the small problem there. Right. I’m, I am not a [00:43:00] monk, but I am, uh, well, well, I’m well accepted, you know, up there. So, um, to the point where there’s like a, there’s a Goldberg room, you know, somewhere in, in the building, but the, um, the reality of it is that I, I was going so often that I just met all the other monks and formed friendships, you know, aside from Brother Christopher because there.

Sort of, they’re sort of a cross between a church, a family, and like a frat house, you know, because it’s a bunch of, you know, monks living in the same place, working together. Um, and so I formed friendships and relationships separately, individually with all of them, and to the point where, um, they, to me seemed like a second family.

So I just, the comfort level, the trust level between all of us grew organically and over a long period of time, um, which eventually led to books. And that’s a separate story that I can [00:44:00] tell you if you’d like later. But, um, but that was how I sort of formed these, these relationships with the monks. So when you’re at the monastery, is it exactly like you would expect if, assuming that I have no knowledge of monks outside of like, movies, tv, whatever?

Yeah. Is it exactly like you’d expect you walk around and everyone’s in a robe, like, you know, it’s a monastery whatever room you’re in, or is it, you know, a little, A little. Okay. That’s a little, yeah. I’ll tell you what guys. If you wanna, uh, the, the, the, I’ll give you a little bit of, you know, background on them, uh, then it’ll kind of piece together with your, your comment.

Um, the, the order is called The Monk of New Sket. Sket is SST, ETE, the monks of New Sket. You can go to monks of nuke.org and see a million pictures of their monastery. It is extremely beautiful. And when you are there, you are well aware. You’re at somewhere pretty different, [00:45:00] um, because they are not Catholic monks.

’cause see, I, I’m Jewish, I have a lot to learn. Um, they’re orthodox, you know how you have Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox Eastern Orthodox? Well, they’re American Orthodox and uh, however, the tradition is based of orthodoxy. The, it’s churches with onion domes. So it looks like mossa beautiful. But the, uh, the landscape, the, the architecture, the buildings are everything there is incredibly beautiful.

Uh, there’s a Bell Tower called to prayer. Um, are they always in robes? No. Um, they, they often walk around in street clothes. So, uh, blue jeans and a sweatshirt is a very common, you know, monk attire, but they’re in and out of church multiple times per day, most days of the week. And they, they put on robes just like you would think, uh, for, for that purpose.

So yeah, you [00:46:00] would not, you, you would not, you would know you were at a monastery. You know, when you go there, you, you would, okay, so when, I mean, when you’re spending time there, is it. I, I’ve done a little reading on the Monks and you know, I’ve read, um, you know, some of the books and, you know, flipped through some of the others as well.

And it seemed, I remember them saying once, something about how it’s very quiet there and they adopted a German Shepherd or got a German shepherd and the dog was rowdy. And you know, that from my understanding, kind of, you know, started their training journey. Yes. So is that what it’s like? So they have a lot of dogs there.

Ah, I’m curious, like curious how many dogs and then what is it like you have all these monks, all these people, all these German shepherds. Is it quiet and peaceful? So, uh, yeah. Yes. But, um, so let me explain. Yeah. Um, first, you know, their order was formed in the late sixties and, um, [00:47:00] they, these are, these were a bunch of men physically building the buildings.

So they were literally building their own buildings and, uh, and they were pretty poor. Um, because, you know, they’re, they, I, I really didn’t know how any of this worked. Like I said, I’m Jewish, but it turns out these guys have to earn their own money to build their own, um, build their own mission. And, um, said they did farming and all kinds of things, you know, in those days to try and make just scratch buy enough money to buy like boards and nails and stuff.

So, um, a friend of this group was a breeder of German Shepherds and she gave them a pair of females really nice ones too. Um, and she said, you know, I’ll bring a male around and we should maybe breed and you could have a litter of puppies this way because they fell in love with these dogs. Um, and it had, it actually turned just a bunch of guys into a family.

’cause they shared the dogs, right. But yes, they were rowdy. And, um, one of the brothers brother [00:48:00] Thomas, who’s deceased now, but brother Thomas, he was just a natural born dog trainer. And so he trained those dogs and then there was a litter of puppies. And the way Brother Christopher tells this story makes me laugh.

He goes, because they turned around and now there’s like 15 German Shepherds on this property, and they’re eating the house that these guys built with their own hands and they’re eating the church. And so Brother Thomas organized a class and, and then he had to teach all the other moms how to teach these puppies to not be crazy.

Um, and then they had to start figuring out what are we gonna do with them? ’cause we, we got 15 German Shepherds. Now you may have seen, or if you haven’t, you can look it up. It’s pretty famous picture. It’s in some of their books. And it was printed in Life Magazine. Um, the monks at a service in church with like 15 German Shepherds on a Downs stay during church and then also the same picture.

But in the dining, you know, they have a big dining room [00:49:00] where, you know, where everybody eats wants together. And um, and they just would put the dogs all on downstairs and, uh, while they would have meals. So what happened is now the parishioners who come up, they’re on top of a mountain, the parishioners who come up the mountain for, you know, services on Sunday, mass liturgy they call it.

Um, but those parishioners were seeing these like incredibly well-trained puppies. And, um, and so they bought them, the, the parishioners were all, they were all like, can I buy one? I got a friend. And so they, they sold off these puppies and, uh, what happened was they were having a terrible time. They were starving trying to like, raise cattle and sheep and make sausage.

And they, they were, they, the monks were starving at that time. But this dog thing was going pretty well. And so it kind of grew, you know, a little bit organically from that. So, and then people started bringing them dogs that they hadn’t bred different breeds and saying, can you train them? And they were [00:50:00] like, well, we don’t know.

We’ve only ever trained ours. We’ll try. People started paying them to do it. And that from there developed a training program. Um, and the, the most interesting thing is one guy drives up there from New York City to pick up his dog, his train after the board and train. And this fellow says, I can’t believe what you’ve done with my dog.

This is un this is unbelievable. You guys should write a book. And they were like, what do we know about, you know, or months we don’t. What do we know about books? And he, and the, but the, the man was an editor at Little Brown. Which is one of the largest publishing companies in America. And he said, I’ll help you do it, but I’m serious.

We should do it and I would like to sign you to a contract to do it. And that’s how they became New York Times bestselling authors. ’cause that book sold a million copies. Um, that was, that was uh, how to Be Your Dog’s Best friend. And then of course from that they got a, a TV show on [00:51:00] Animal Planet and a lot of crazy things happened, you know, but good things.

It’s, it’s amazing how a chance encounter can turn into something truly life changing happened to me that way. ’cause if he wouldn’t have come to the conference, I wouldn’t have met him. If he didn’t invite me, I wouldn’t have met the rest of them. You know, you asked if it was quiet up there and the answer is yes.

There’s probably, each monk takes care of one or two German shepherds and there’s like a dozen monks. So there’s a lot of dogs in the house. But they each have, you know, the monks, they each have their own rooms. Um, they also, and the, the dogs sleep with the monks in their room. Um, I’m pretty sure Brother Gregory, he claims that he doesn’t let that dog in his bed, but I don’t believe him.

All the rest of the monks are very, you know, correct about the dog bed. I think Brother Gregory might cheat with his dogs. Um, I think he’s the weak link on that one there. Uh, but, um, some of the dogs will come to dinner and do a down stay. Some will be [00:52:00] kenneled. They have a, a kennel area where sometimes they feed the dogs.

Um. But yeah, you often see the monks are responsible for these dogs and what they, and these are the breeding dogs, the ones that like, that they don’t, that they don’t sell because they do breed and sell puppies. Um, it’s a very carefully curated, the, the amount of health testing, um, and genetic testing that they do on their line of dogs is quite extreme.

Um, so this is a very nicely curated line of dogs. They’re very good, they’re very, they’re very fine breeders. But, um, so each month feeds his own dog, grooms his own dog, plays with his own dog exercises. Um, the, the, the training. Ken will train the dog, and then the monk will keep that dog trained. Um, and so it is a bunch of trained dogs.

They’re not running around loose. Um, they are, you know, and sometimes they are, but I mean, they’re under voice command. So [00:53:00] these, let’s just say they live in a big ex, in a giant group. And, um, and the monks make it work because these dogs are so well adjusted and well-trained. That’s amazing. I’m just picturing that many German shepherds in a house, even well-trained, just the potential for scuffles and chaos and all, all the things that dogs can do.

Well, that’s a point. Okay, so here’s how that gets handled. The monks are real sensitive to, you know, the, the, the vibes in the air. And so they well know. Which, and, and by the way, you’re talking about all intact males and all intact females, and the monks know very well, which bitch doesn’t like which other bitch.

And none of the boys like each other. And, and once they get a breeding age when they’re young, they like everybody. But the boys tend to, it’s not like instant fights or anything like that, but there’s [00:54:00] just you, some of these dogs have tension with other dogs, and so they just coordinate, you know, who’s who, who wants to bring, if, you know, if Helga’s coming to dinner, then I’m gonna leave Habib, you know, in her kennel and I’ll take her out for a run down the road tonight instead.

Gotcha. So there’s, in other words, they, there’s management in place to quite a bit to make smart decisions. Yeah, there is, but the dogs are not under frequent command. They just know how to behave. They can put ’em in a downstate and they do sometimes, but I don’t want you to think it’s a bunch of robot dogs under orders constantly.

It’s a bunch of dogs living in the house with people who know how to manage them by and large. Um, now brother, um, Luke, uh, uh, he is a, he raises a lot of the puppies, particularly the ones they think they’re gonna keep. They look at a puppy and they go, Ooh, this one, we’re gonna save this one for our breeding program.

So I remember, um, brother Luke, [00:55:00] it’s not assigned seating at dinner, but you just. Gravitate to a seat and you keep it. So I always have, I would have dinner next to Brother Luke every night for, you know, a couple weeks, Ronnie, when he was raising these two, five month old puppies, raissa, and I forget the other one.

But anyway, these two, these two female puppies, and what he would do to teach them how to behave in the dining room is he would tether them to the table, right? So they could move a little bit, but they couldn’t be tearing around, you know, or jumping up on the table. They, this is how they learned to like calmly relax.

The monks wrote a lot about tethering, um, in, um, the art of raising a puppy. But, you know, it’s kind of like family style, self-serve. So when Luke would be up, you know, putting food on his plate, I’m sitting next to these puppies who are not molesting me. They’re being pretty good about it, but they’re interested in me.

And I had been working down at the training kennel, which was a, it’s a different building. Um, and I, so I had a pocket full of treats, and these girls knew I had a [00:56:00] pocket full of treats. So I look, Luke doesn’t see me, so I reach over, I give each of them a couple of treats, which makes them a little happier than they should have been, you know?

So when he came back, he could tell they were a little more animated than when he left. This is a monk, okay? So he sits down, he starts eating. He doesn’t even look at me. He just says, if you do that again, I’ll break your fingers. Let me just keeps eating.

So you almost got kicked out. I know better than the feed dogs at the table. I know better. I’m a dog trainer, but they weren’t my responsibility. They were his and they were cute. So, uh, yeah, I got busted that day. But, uh, it’s a lovely, it’s a, these are lovely people who really are very dedicated to their, uh, religious life, but, uh, and also to dogs.

Yeah. So do you think there’s anything about being a monk that makes them a more effective or [00:57:00] better dog trainer? You know this from my, from my observation, what I could tell you is they’re very focused people, very now, not that they don’t have downtime and a little bit of leisure here in the, that they, they do, but you’re talking about laser focus on whatever it is that they dedicate themselves to do.

I’ve never seen a bunch of more disciplined, hardworking people. Um, and so, yeah, I, I think the fact that this is what they do, and then there’s so much that they don’t do that people who aren’t monks do, you know, we want to get up and go to the movies. We just go, we wanna go to a restaurant. We just go, we feel like going on a vacation somewhere.

We just go. They have to coordinate all of that stuff, you know, as a group, as a committee. Right. And so they live with their dogs far more intensely. [00:58:00] And far more intentionally than we do. Far more. And moreover, because they are a breeder, the whole monastery is a partly part of what they do is a breeding is a breeding farm.

They, when they live with a dog, they live with a dog who they know they’re going to have for a time, but not forever because the females are, you know, are healthy breeding age until a certain point. And then they’re gonna have to spay that female. And then what they do is they find her an unbelievable home.

They’re so picky about where, where these puppies and where these fem, where these older dogs go. And in fact, there’s a long line, a very long waiting list to get one of their older dogs because they’re super trained, super socialized. You can take ’em anywhere, mix ’em up with anybody on leash, off leash. Um, but if you’re living with a dog who, you know, [00:59:00] I’m in five years, you know, I might have to park with you, you, it, the relationship intensifies.

And, you know, they do have one another as family, right. But the intimacy is with the dog. The, the sleeping in the room is with the dog. So I feel like they just are very, very dedicated to their dogs in a, in a way that. Many other people are not. And it’s an, it’s a healthy way of living with a dog because they have 500 acres to play on.

So, and they do with their dogs. But, um, the dogs have an incredibly good life over there. It’s, they’re super happy animals, but, um, the, the monks don’t live with them the way most people do, which is let ’em out to pee, let ’em back in, feed ’em, go to sleep. That’s it. That’s all they do with their dogs. The, these people are dedicated to these dogs.

That’s interesting. And, and I guess they ha they just have a much different lifestyle than the [01:00:00] average person, of course, right. Where this is their job, as opposed to like, all of us working with our clients. Our clients have another job and they got a dog just for fun. And then they’re trying to fix all these problems with their dog, but they don’t wanna dedicate hours per day to it.

They just want problems. You know, I’m hesitant to speak for the monks, but from my perspective as an outsider who’s gotten a real inside glimpse, what I could tell you is, being a monk is not a job. It’s a life. It, it encompasses like, listen, when they walk outside the front door of the monastery to go to whatever building on the property, they’re gonna go do some work.

They pass the cemetery, it’s their cemetery, and all the, all the old monks are in there. So when they get there, they know where they’re going to go when their tongue with their job, you know, right there. Um, they pass it every day. It keeps you very humble. Um, and so I. Um, it’s a life. Uh, the dogs are an important component of it, but they’re one [01:01:00] component of a and it’s a full life.

You know, they’re very busy people. Um, obviously it’s not for everybody. Um, they have a section of their website about becoming a monk, and you can read if you wanna know more about like how that works. ’cause it’s beyond me. Um, it’s beyond me, but I just will say I have great admiration for these people, um, because they’re all intellectually, they’re all brilliant people.

They’re funny people. Um, and they’re very, very dedicated to their religious life and to their dogs. It really, it’s, it’s just a remarkable place. I, we do workshops up there, uh, now Brother Christopher and I do, we have one in June. People can go to the art of training your dog.com and learn more about that.

But, um, and, you know, that’s billable. But there, people can go up there on retreat for very small, you know, dollars and just stay a couple days, uh, you know, in a room rented by the monastery. And it, it’s [01:02:00] not expensive to do it. And you get the vibe of the place and you know, and you can have dinner with the monk and yeah, I recommend that for everybody.

It’s, it’s truly amazing. That’s pretty, I’m, I’m assuming Jason and I won’t need that though. We’ll get. An invite. You’ve got our cell phones and our email, so we’ll just be waiting for the invite and we’ll just pop on over. Everybody wants to pop over. They’re very regimented there. I don’t even pop over, honestly.

I, you know, I don’t even know how many times I’ve been there and I have like my own room there when I go. Um, but, uh, I arrange, I, I make it a, I arrange everything in advance because they are, they are. So, you know, they have a religious calendar, right, which has like, it’s in, they’re in Lent right now. They have a different religious Carol calendar than Catholics.

Like, their Christmas is not December 25. Their Easter is not the same Easter because they’re on a, they’re on the Gregorian calendar, not the Julian calendar. I, I don’t, it’s, they haven’t caught up with modern times. So, [01:03:00] um, they have a different calendar. Well, anyway, their calendar is so full that they know every week of the year for 50 years in advance what they’re going to be doing.

Um, and so yeah, you have to make, you have to make prior arrangements in advance. I do. I even, I do. I don’t pop over there. That is a commitment to scheduling. Yeah. It’s, it’s truly amazing. But I will say the first time I slept in that place, um, uh, you know, I, I was in a building all by myself. It later got demolished.

Okay? So I’m staying in a scary building in the middle of the woods with like mice in the walls. I could hear them. This is why it got demolished. Um, and uh. And the dogs in the breeding kennel would howl a little bit in the middle of the night. See, because what happens is they’re sleeping in bed with the monks, right.

But when it’s time for them to have their babies, they take ’em to the breeding kennel. And then there’s a monk who’s like sleeping there, keeping an eye on them, making sure that they’re not birthing, and if they are that they have help. [01:04:00] Um, but, you know, I’m in the middle of the woods. There’s the, the nearest human being is a quarter mile away, up the hill through Pitch Black.

And I hear just German shepherds softly howling in the distance. It was, uh, it was a very spiritual thing for me to, to go there because it’s, uh, it’s like, it’s like a mecca, if you will, for dog people. So, um, I started to write a book. I had an idea for a book. I, um, I, I wrote a lot about this, you know, I wrote a lot, and Brother Christopher was extremely, um, uh, he encouraged me a lot.

He, he was like my biggest fan on writing my book. And he had written, he had written numerous books and so he knew how to do it, but it was the first book for me. And so there was a lot I didn’t know about how to write a book. And, um, I got about halfway through it, which is a lot of word. I had like 30,000 words written.

It was a, it was [01:05:00] a lot of writing and I liked a lot of the material, but I was just so stuck for organization and knowing how to finish it, that I just put it aside. I got stuck. It’s called Writer’s Block. And man, I got it really bad to the point where I was just, I was done and ready to give up. And one day he, you know, we, we would, we talk on the phone every once in a while and he called me up and he goes, how you doing?

How’s your book? And I started saying a lot of un monk-like words,

which he lets me do when I can’t stop myself. And, uh, and he laughed and he goes, what’s wrong? And I said, you know, I’m done. I’m, I’m done. I, I said, do you like it? And he said, yeah, no, it’s really good work. I’m like, good. I said, I’m going to send you all the files ’cause you know how to write a book. I’m just gonna email you all the files and, um, you know, just, just make it your own.

Finish it, rewrite it. Do whatever you want. I said, but you guys haven’t had a dog book in 15 years that, because they switched off a dog books and started writing religious [01:06:00] books. And, um, and so I said, you haven’t had a big dog book for a while, you know, just take it. And he’s like, you’re giving me your book.

And I’m like, yes, I’m done. I don’t want my book anymore. And he said, you know what? Let, we’ll, we’re gonna write it together. Oh, wait, what? And he is like, you can’t give away your book. He said, but we could, we could do it together. Um, and that was a big surprise to a, to well to a lot of people, like primarily his literary agent.

Um, you know, because you don’t just publish a book. You have an agent who handles. All of that material for you and, and, and gets it sold and the other monks. So basically we had to talk to a lot of people in the family to make it work. But, um, because I knew all the monks, they trusted me. They, they, it just, it was just an organically weird thing because I just tried to, I tried to give [01:07:00] my book as a gift to them.

’cause I knew he could do something with it. I knew he could. I knew there was some, I knew there was, the material was good, I just couldn’t figure it out. So I, I was trying to just do something generous and just say, here have it, and it solves a problem for me and I can be done. But that act of generosity was met with an act of quadruple generosity on his part because he said, we’ll do it together.

And then we had to figure out how to do that. Like what does that look like? Um, and we did figure it out. Um, and we had so much fun. We didn’t think, who knew? It turned out we were actually very good together. We figured out a way to make it work. Um, we didn’t have to be in the same room. He, he could, he could be in, in his room and I could be in mine a thousand miles away.

And we each had writing assignments. He, he helped me piece together how, okay, here’s the chunk you’re gonna write, you know, do it this week and here’s the chunk I’m gonna write. I’ll do it this week and then we’ll put ’em [01:08:00] together. And, um, that worked out so well that. As we started writing other books together, sometimes the editor would call me and say, Hey, I need Brother Christopher to write 500 words about this so I can stick it in right here in that chapter.

And I’d be like, I got you. And then I would write Brother Christopher’s 500 words, because I can write in his voice. I know his voice different than mine, but I know it. And, um, I just use bigger words, uh, with more syllables than I would normally use. ’cause he’s smarter than me. And, um, and then he’s, he, sometimes he’ll do the same.

He’ll, he’ll just write the chunk that, you know, I was supposed to write. And so, uh, yeah, it, it, it worked out. We had more fun collaborating than we thought we would. And then, you know, we got more contracts, so we were like, Ooh, let’s just keep going. And, um, and so this was, yeah, this was the first book. Um, let Dogs Be Dogs is, it’s, it’s a little [01:09:00] subtitle is Mastering the Art of Living With Your Dog.

And I, I really wanted to call it the Art of Living with your Dog. ’cause you know, you train a dog, what, maybe half an hour here. Half an hour there. What about the other 24 hours a day or the other 23? You know, this book tells you what to do when you’re not training the dog, which is 23 hours of the day.

And that’s what this is. It covers, you know, everything that we know about not training a dog, you know, because most dog trainers, we don’t. Formally train our dogs. They just sort of absorb the, the little teachable moments we give them along the way. And then at a certain point, yes, we might need to teach some formalities, especially if we’re gonna do competition things or we want specific behaviors that are not real natural to a dog, such as jumping up on a bucket or something, you know, like that.

But, um, mostly the dog just absorbs what we want because we know [01:10:00] how to live with the dog. And that’s what we wanted to share in that book. So that was the first one. The second one is, uh, this one. So Living with Your Dog. And then we wanted to write about training your dog. And, um, this is the Eco Book. Um, and it almost didn’t happen because I didn’t like Eco.

I, I, I was angry about Ecos. And the reason I was angry about Ecos was the first one I ever saw, uh, numbed my arm from my fingers up to my shoulder when I, I put it on myself and hit the button and woo. And that was in like 1975. 1970. Yeah, about 1975. I, you know, and because they had ecos back, but they were terrible, you know?

Um, and so I was against them even for the next 20 some years, even though they changed. But I didn’t change until I did so. [01:11:00] I mean, I can understand that completely. ’cause I, I went through that same, that same challenge where I had seen someone use an eco really poorly. So my thought was, well, I hate ecos ’cause I mean, they look like a bad tool.

And I was so resistant. I was a professional trainer and wouldn’t even consider it. And then I saw someone using a collar once. Well, and I was like, Hmm, maybe there’s something to this. But the first person I’d seen use it, it was just like, put it at a high level and use it to stop bad behavior. Yeah. And it was too high.

It wasn’t there, there was no art to it, there was no teaching. It was just a correction tool. Mm-hmm. So I, I can understand completely. And then you, when you, when you open your eyes and, and ears and start to learn, it’s amazing what can be done with them. Yeah. It truly is. But it takes, it takes an open mind, which I didn’t have.

Okay. I, I had a very closed mind. I, I thought used badly. I felt it used badly. I was done, uh, for 20 years. I thought, you know, this is a [01:12:00] bad thing. Um, and maybe it was for, for that 20 years. But listen, technology changed. Listen, I, I, I’m holding in my hand a device which contains the entire body of human knowledge.

I use it to fight with people on Facebook. I, I just fight with people on Facebook and uh, and I watch cat videos. That’s what I do with the, you know, so things, things change and, um, the world change, the technology change. Ecos, not all of them. There’s thousands of ecos and most of them are garbage. There’s a half a dozen that are not.

So how do people even know which ones? You know, we had to tell ’em which ones aren’t fresh. ’cause most of them are garbage. Most of ’em are capable of hurting your dog and nothing more.

But ultimately what happened was I went to a, I went to a seminar where I saw somebody train dogs with ecos, a new generation of ecos. This was in the nineties, late nineties. It was a new [01:13:00] generation of ecos that were certainly much more advanced than what, you know, I fried myself with back then in the seventies.

And what I saw this trainer doing with dogs was intriguing and upsetting. It was both, it was like double-edged sword, right? The intriguing part was, I know how long it takes a dog to, to learn this or that or the other, uh, or at least how long it takes me to teach the, you know, those things. And I saw this trainer teaching those same things to dogs at lightning speed much, much faster.

And that was intriguing. However, the stress level on these dogs was unsettling. Okay? It was disturbing to me. Um, what did I see? I saw stuff that I think really almost anybody could see. But as a professional trainer at that point. I think I, I just had a good eye for what the dog was thinking, feeling. [01:14:00] And these dogs had elevated respiration rates.

They were salivating, their pupils were dilated and blown. Um, they were in stress. And what they were trying to figure out in their stressful, defensive situation was they were trying to figure out what do I gotta do to make this stop? And I wanna do that as soon as I can. So it wasn’t so bad that they went into flight.

Then again, they were held on leashes, so they knew it. Anyway, after I, after I saw this, I thought, this is beautiful and this is horrible, but it’s beautiful, but it’s horrible. And I was very torn about, um, I mean, I could never do what this guy was doing because I didn’t wanna see the look that look on any dog’s face.

Um, and so what I did was, it was another point in time when I had to take my confirmation bell bias, okay. My own bias, and say, woo, I think I gotta start over. [01:15:00] And so I spent, uh, about four years, legit, about four years trying to achieve some level of, to take some of the good, the best of what I saw, but to eliminate the nasty.

And there was so much nasty that it was hard to do that. And it took a long time. And there was no manual, there was no mentor. You know, there was. You know, Mary and I were kind of working it at separate angles, separately, and then once in a while we would compare notes. But there was just no guidance on this one.

But this is what I tell people. I teach Eco to now. Everything I knew about dogs came into play, even though it didn’t involve Ecos because what I had learned to do over the 25 years, 30 years, I’d been training dogs at that point, I learned how to read a dog to understand is he curious? Is he trying, is he defying, is he confused?

Uh, is he afraid? [01:16:00] Is he ignoring, is he, you know, farting around in order to just distract, like, what is this dog thinking right now and that I could do? Um, and so I just started piecing together. So I get dogs to do things quickly now, but not as quick as that guy. I don’t need to teach a six day in five minutes.

I’m fine with doing that in five days or 10 days. Why? Why do we have to do it in five minutes? That’s ego. That’s ego. You, you want something in five minutes, it’s because you wanna show off to other people. But so quick kind of dog nerd question for you. I’m just trying to picture what this trainer was doing.

Is it, was it like high pressure, negative reinforcement training? Yes. Correct. Okay. Exactly. Correct. Yeah. So I could see how you could get some pretty quick results and also stress out some dogs with that. If you’re not, if you’re, while you are sitting. It doesn’t hurt. So you might wanna continue sitting.

Mm-hmm. Because it’s gonna hurt if you don’t. [01:17:00] Um, and now I’m talking about taking a line of dogs, all of whom already knew what sit was. It wasn’t like he was teaching sit for the first time that, you know, but all taking a line of dogs, putting them, uh, in front of a chain link fence. Putting three or four dogs on a sit stay and then turning a pack of dogs loose on the other side of that fence.

We were going, you know, fence fighting the dogs who were sitting with their tails six inches, you know, their backs to that fence. And, and basically the message to the dogs on the sit stay was, don’t move. Or it’s gonna really suck until you re situate yourself. Well, you know, it worked. Mm-hmm. It worked. I saw dogs who just figured that out pretty quick.

But it was, it was, it was ugly. It, it was, it was really brutal. Uh, I, I trained dogs because mm-hmm. Hippy in that dog house while I was nine. Loved me when I felt that nobody loved me. You know, that dog comforted me and I [01:18:00] slept with him in that dog house a lot afternoons. And that’s why I wanted a dog. And that’s why I got a she.

And that’s why I quickly learned it wasn’t the be You know what, let me show you a couple things. They’re, they’re on the shelf in front of me. Gimme a quick sec. That dog that I showed you, you know, my, my, she that went up on my knees. Well, these are just a couple. You know what, this stuff will polish up.

You know, if I would ever polish it, but you know, somewhere on them they’re engraved. What’s this one? This is the, uh, perm and Valley Kennel Club, 1972. I don’t remember what this is for. Might have been a highend trial. I won a couple of those, but I have, like, you know, I have, so look how tarnish this is.

Right? But the dog, the memory of that dog, I got him when I was 11 years old. I lost him when I was 29 years old. I still dream about that dog.[01:19:00] 

I still dream about that dog. Um, I did it originally. I started out doing it for this stuff because this felt good, you know, 19 72, 19 72, you know, I was like, I was a little kid. I hadn’t been through puberty yet, you know, and, uh, you know, look at me now, old and grizzled. But, um, I guess the point I’m trying to make is somewhere on that lost on that shelf.

I, you know, I won’t take the time to dig it out. Now, somewhere on that shelf is, is a dumbbell. You know, you throw the dumbbell over the, over the, over the hurdle and dog brings it back. So, um, but there was no dumbbell that fish him. And now, today it’s real easy. Dumbbells are commercially sold, but I, I had to make mine and I am not a, a woodworker.

Even then, I wasn’t. But I somehow figured out how to make this little dumbbell outta scrap lumber and, um. There’s marks on it that, that, you know, on the cross piece where the dog would pick it up, his, my dog’s tooth marks are on that [01:20:00] dumbbell. And I treasure that so much more than anything else, you know, that I own or any accolade or any ribbon or anything.

I got, I’ve got my dog’s dumbbell that, that he picked up and brought to me 10,000 times. Um, that’s why I do this, you know, that’s why I do this. This is the wrong reason to train a dog ego. I mean, I saved this because he won this, but it means something to me. But ego is the wrong, and my, my, too many of us get into it for ego.

Um, I, and I saw, I, I had to learn a lot. The dog taught me a lot when, when he was like, you could kill me, but you can’t make me heal unless you play with me first. Kiss me in, buy me, kiss me in, buy me dinner and then we’ll talk. You know? And, um, it was such a lucky thing that I learned that lesson when I was that young, you know, when I was that young because it, it, I, I had 10,000 hours in by the time I was 16 years old, you [01:21:00] know?

So, circling back for a second, just, you had mentioned ego and then you were talking about that trainer that was getting dogs to sit, stay in five minutes and yeah. Your point was, Hey, maybe it’s okay if that takes a week. How do you handle that conversation with clients? Because. I’m sure you get the same thing I do sometimes, or I mean, people want things quickly and you have to explain to ’em, we need to do what’s right for your dog.

How, how do you handle that conversation? Any tips for the listeners? Well, you know, I, I, um,

I think if you were to tell the average client that you could help them build a sit stay in a week, they’d be flabbergasted that it was that quick. They, they don’t think it’s possible at all, you know? Now it is true that people can be impatient with dogs and send them mixed signals. I mean, how many times have we seen it?

People are like, oh my God, I missed you so much. Stop jumping. I mean, like, they’ll, people will flip on a dime, you know, like that, which is just confusing to dogs. So certainly people need education, but I don’t take the timeline really so much as one of them. I do probably [01:22:00] more bored and train than I do lessons, although I really like to do, I’d love to do lessons, um, because when I do lessons, I have more time with the owner and I can bring them into the process in a deeper way, and I know they learn more then.

Um, so I really like to do lessons, but in my market, most people want to drop the dog off and pick up their folded laundry, you know, take it home, and then I’m giving them the components that they most need now. Um, and then I just guarantee my work for a lifetime so that they won’t be shy to come back to me if they needed help later.

That’s, I, I want them back if they’ve got questions or problems, but. I find that on, on, on average, uh, I can, I can take the average knucklehead dog, uh, from knows nothing all the way through off leash reliability, um, in three weeks. And so [01:23:00] that’s what I’m teaching in, in, in my kennel. The book slows it down because I’m dealing with people who have never done it before.

Uh, the book is not for dogs, it’s for people. So this book takes the training program into a day by day, step-by-step program that takes six weeks to complete. Um, but I think if you told most people, Hey, you could have a fully trained dog in six weeks. They, they, they would, they would be, they would barely believe it because it sounds fast.

I’ve got a copy of that book right here, and Jason and I were just talking, we’re gonna make a book about how to train a dog in five weeks and, and it’s just gonna be amazing. People are going to eat that up. Yeah. I don’t think they really care, you know? That is a funny point, but I, I don’t think people care how long it’s gonna take.

I think people just wanna know how to do it and that there’s light at the end of the tunnel. You know, I really, I feel that today people are just too busy. You know, leisure [01:24:00] time is a thing of the past, and that’s why class rates have fallen. I mean, in a way this has been kind of good for dog trainers because classes are.

Economical to, um, to, to manage board and train much less so, so people will pay a great deal more for board and train. When I was a kid, you couldn’t sell a board and train, nobody would’ve done it. Everybody went to classes. But then again, if you look at what the amount of leisure time that people had in the seventies versus what they have now, ooh, leader time went away.

You know, what came in instead is the second and third job for so many people. Um, both spouses working, you know, today. So I think that’s created, um, opportunities for dog trainers, which is a good thing for our profession. Um, but at the same time, I think it’s important that we teach our clients so they can keep their dogs trained, you know?

So I would like to sell more lessons, but I sell more bored and train because that’s what my clients, that’s what they [01:25:00] mostly want. Um, I wrote an article that was published in the Winter Journal, uh, the, the ICP Journal. And that article is about how to find the, what, what’s called the working level or the educational level, the level of eco.

How do I know what I should turn this eco up to or down to for my dog? And if you guys get the journal, um, people who are, uh, listening to us right now, I urge you to have a look at that, uh, at that article because I have really strong opinions on how to find the level. To communicate with the dog. I’ve really, with the eco, what I’m, what I’m trying to do is I’m trying to give the dog a sensation with the eco that they can just barely detect at any given moment in time, right?

So the adrenaline level or distraction level of the dog is a moving target, and I want the eco level to [01:26:00] be just a teeny bit above that. If it’s, if the dog has an unquiet mind, then I’m going to need a high level on the eco in order to, for the dog to even detect it. The dog has a quieter mind, a more thoughtful mind, and he will detect even a lower level.

So I, we start out in the book, um, with a, just a simple and easy little lesson, which teaches the dog to just settle on a leash with no command to just settle. Um, and they go quickly from kind of frantic on the leash to just

namaste, you know? And, um, that’s the first lesson in the book. Takes five minutes, 10 minutes. If you do it right for a really rowdy dog, might take 15. But that’s all it takes. So that’s why our lesson one is written the way it is, uh, because we don’t wanna put an eco onto a dog with an unquiet mind, because [01:27:00] an unquiet mind requires a higher stimulus, higher stimulus to be detectable.

And I want lower detectable levels, but. At the end of the day, what we’re doing with the dog is we’re searching for the level which the dog can feel. He can detect it with his sense of touch, but he, but it is so benign that he has no need to tell us that he felt it. I got earbuds in. You guys each have, in fact, mine are gonna die any second.

I’ll have to just go to my regular, uh, I’ll just have to go to my regular, um, uh, microphone on the laptop. But you’re wearing earphones. I’m wearing earbuds. I feel them, but I wasn’t paying attention to the sensation that they, that they’re giving me. ’cause I’m filtering out information that’s irrelevant to what I’m doing right now.

And dogs will do that too. So people who tell you, well, you just put, just turn the level up till where the dog [01:28:00] goes. What was that? Or flicks the ear or blink or twitches a little bit. And so then you think, oh, well the dog feels it. Oh no, he felt it before that way before that. Just like you can feel the hat on your head.

You could feel the pressure of your butt on the chair, but your hypothalamus is filtering that information out because it is irrelevant until I call it to your attention. Now you can feel your own butt. And so can everybody listening who’s sitting down. And we will ignore that until we hit critical mass bench.

Butt sits in, we’ve been sitting still too long, and then we gotta shift. And that’s the point at which the sensation has become. Not neutral, but has become in some way, shape, or form uncomfortable. We don’t wanna make a dog uncomfortable to say, excuse me, I need you right now. So, uh, I detail a process on how to find the level that does not involve the dog giving you any overt fine that they feel it.

Because trust me, by the time a dog says, excuse me, I felt [01:29:00] that, um, it’s bothering him ’cause he felt it prior and he didn’t need to tell you. He felt it. And, um, the, the problem with the dog who overtly advertises that he felt a level from the eco is you are gonna have the sense that, okay, that’s my starting point.

And um, but the dog will sensitize more and more to that particular level and probably need you to lower it. And when most people confuse the dog with an knee collar, the tendency of some people is to turn it up to make the point, like more dramatic to the dog. Um, but then that puts a dog into a state of concern, at which point they may freeze in order to figure out what to do because you haven’t clarified for it.

And then people take that as abstinence and they turn it up again. This is what I saw, you know, in that workshop. So in reality, what, what the whole essence of what the monks and I do with an eco is we find a level which the dog can just [01:30:00] barely detect at any given time point in time. And then we associate that, that feeling, that tap.

Very, very clear body language to engage the dog. And really that’s the definition of this methodology is low level eco sensation combined with crystal clear body language to engage the pack, drive of the dog. The dog’s desire to collaborate with his human companion and or leader. And that is what, uh, that’s, that’s what we get here.

And when you do it that way, eventually, you know, by week two, uh, of a dog in born train, I, I’m here on a little bit of acreage. So I got trees and sticks that fall down and, you know, gardening to do and stuff. I just take a dog out on an eco, turn ’em loose, and uh, I gargy and periodically can I let the dog explore and play.

And periodically I call him, ask for a sit, give him a scruff, send him back out to play. And I’m looking to see, is he checking in? Is he, where’s Goldberg? [01:31:00] Is he looking back at me now? And again, if he tears off, you know, to run, is he running away or is he running, you know, if he’s running, enjoy, if he’s running away, get back.

Um, and so you just, I integrate the training into just happy dog life activities. And this is after only a couple weeks of training and it, it sets into the dog so deeply because they are opting in to the training as opposed to having it imposed upon them. And that makes for very fast reliability, very fast.

Talk about, sorry, you talk about, um. This dog’s sort of desire to, um, cooperate. Mm-hmm. Um, I think you called it pack drive there. Mm-hmm. That, that desire to engage, I think. Yeah. Um, how important is your relationship with that dog to that [01:32:00] equation in order to, um, have a dog that’s motivated by that? And the reason why I’m asking is ’cause we oftentimes find, uh, particularly pet owners who, who don’t have that relationship.

And I say that because, um, we see our trainers work with these dogs in boarding trains for a couple weeks. Um, and you know, after a couple weeks that trainer has what seems to be a more solid relationship with this dog than the owner who’s had it living in its home and sleeping in its bed for the last three years.

You know, that’s a hundred percent true. Um, the relationship is the linchpin for all of the trainings. It without relationship, you’re just making a dog do stuff. And the moment the dog has options and understands you can’t make him do stuff, he’ll do what he wants, which may be very different than what you want him to do.[01:33:00] 

So there are plenty of dogs who, you know, I’ve had endless clients. I’m sure y’all have too. Who have had to chase their dog through traffic down, you know, down suburban or city streets, you know, chase the dog down till the dog gets tired of running away. Um, because the dog has options. I, I am training for this, my, my end, the endpoint for me, the, the endpoint for me is, um, a combination of things, but I think it could be summed up as happy off-leash reliability.

I mean, I want happy ’cause I want attitude, but I want off-leash reliability because without a leash I can’t make a dog do anything. And if you think you could just make a dog do something, ’cause you have an eco on him, what, what you could easily do by not educating the dog, by not clarifying for the dog over pressure with an eco on a dog.

Not wearing a leash will cause flight. So it doesn’t cause recall, it causes [01:34:00] flight. So you can’t make a dog do anything. What you can do is teach a dog the benefit in the relationship of collaboration, of mutual respect. I, any, listen, he loves his people. Obviously I never had to teach a person how to love the dog or the dog to love that person.

You know, that, that bond is almost always extremely strong, as you say, they live with that dog. But the getting the best of the dog. The real fulfillment to the point where the dog just can’t wait to come running back to you and then to go running back out. ’cause he knows he can. Um, that’s where the magic is.

And um, that’s the happiest part of this for me is that the longer I do this, the less like training it seems. It’s the more, it’s, I’m hiking with these dogs, I’m gardening with these dogs, I’m playing with them. Um, yeah, there’s a little bit of food strategically involved. Uh, it’s very strategically baked [01:35:00] into certain lessons.

Like recall, there’s a bit of luring involved for the dogs who like food, the dogs who don’t, well, you have to find something else that motivates them. Um, boy, I, I love training a beagle because I know where the rabbits pee in my yard and I will give them, I, that’s where they want to go. I’m like, great, I’m taking you there, but I’m the big beagle.

I’m gonna take you where I wanna take you first. And then as a reward, Hey, come over here and have a whiff of that told you. So then they start looking at you like, what else you got? And I’m like, I know where the raccoons are too. So y you know, not every dog is gonna be motivated by food. Some are very emotionally motivated by, you know, love and play and physical contact.

Um, and some are, some dogs are kind of admittedly standoffish, but what those dogs want, even the standoffish ones, what they want is independence. You know, your. Like a lot of your, uh, your guardian breeds kind of independent, sort of minded dogs. If you [01:36:00] teach ’em like, Hey, look, when I can trust you not to, not to leave the property, well, I’m gonna give you a whole lot more independence, but it comes from me and here’s what I need in order to give you that.

When they understand this, um, dogs will, it will do almost anything for you. And they’re, I think they’re psychologically created. Well, why do dogs care what we think? Well, because we bred them that way for 30,000 years. You know, the ones who didn’t care were not useful and we didn’t feed ’em. We probably ate ’em.

And so we just care. We just created a lot more DNA that cared. You know, you, you could point to a, chimpanzees are much smarter than dogs, but you could point to a cup and a chimpanzee might not want it. You point to a cup and the dog wants to know what’s what he got, what’s in there? You, you know, they’re just built to take direction and to understand us on a deeper level than animals that are even, you know, theoretically smarter than they are.

They just care. They care more. [01:37:00] Um, really, I mean, the only other domestic animal we sleep with is the cat. And let’s be honest, I love cats. You know, but they don’t really care what you, I mean, that’s true. Just as long as the box is full of food, um, that cat is fine. You know, the dog is lonely without you.

The cat opens one eye and goes, yeah, nice to see you. Um, you know, so motivating dogs to want to do what you want and then showing them how they can achieve it in rapid order can get you a really reliable dog quickly. Anything I can do with an eco, I can do without an eco, it’s just harder and it takes longer.

It’s just harder and takes longer. And honestly, it’s harder on the dog, right? Because if you’re gonna teach a dog, don’t bolt on a line. He is gonna have to hit the end of that line a couple times, and that’s harder on the dog than giving him that little sensation that says you’re running outta line, you’re running outta line, you’re running outta line.

And then have him stop and look at you and go, I was running outta line. Like, yeah, [01:38:00] come over here and get a treatment. Okay, but then I’m gonna drop that line ’cause I don’t wanna hold that line. I train with leashes and lines as though I, were going to eliminate them in, in, in mere days because I am. And that means I don’t wanna physically use them too much.

I want the dog to figure it out. So when you introduce Eco, if you’re training, I’ll just set you the scene. That’s right. 1-year-old lab, happy go lucky dog comes into your board and train program. No fear issues. No, nothing exciting going on. Just a dog. When do you introduce Eco? Um, okay, so it’s a little different what I do than in the book versus what I do in my own kennel.

Um, in the book there’s a, there’s a couple preparatory lessons. I need people to learn how to, you know, read a dog a little bit before putting the collar on the dog. We have the collar on the dog in the book in the first week. But, uh, in my kennel, you [01:39:00] know, it just depends on what’s happening that day. But it, it would be very typical that I would put prong collar on that dog, or I put a herm Springer on the dog and an eco.

And I’m not even using the eco until I’m hanging out with the dog for 10 or 15 minutes. And by the way, this is probably after I’ve pottied him and spent a, spent a, a few minutes with him just kind of getting to know one another. You know, I’m not grabbing a leash and bam training. You know, we’ve probably gone for a sniff and a pee.

Um, I probably did that on a Herm Springer because I’m old now and there is only so much being thrown around a yard I can take by an 80 pound lab on a harness. Um, and that is the way they come in. Um, so I put the prong on. I don’t only teach ’em anything, they just pretty quickly figure out I should like, not pull too crazy anyway.

But, you know, in 15 minutes I’ll have a neat collar on a dog. And all I’m teaching that dog at first is, um, we’re going [01:40:00] to walk from point A to point B. I’m going to make, uh, 180 degree and about turn, and I’m going to purposefully step off in the other direction, but one millisecond. Before I make that about turn, I’m going to give you that imperceptible tap with the eco, which says you’re running out of leash.

Usually in three or four turns, that dog is turning with me on that tap and on that turn. And if he’s not, I know I underestimated his number, that’s all. And I just gotta boof it up from five to six and try again. Um, and then I start throwing in surprise turns where he didn’t expect me. I’m not going to point a point B, I just throw in a different point, but I tap the turn.

And if the dog goes, Ooh, I know what that means. I’m running outta leash. We’re turning. Then I know. Ooh, I found your, I found your first level, your educational level. And in my book, we think of it as the educational level, what you can feel when you’re relatively calm. Mm-hmm. The reinforcement level. What, when you, when, when you want [01:41:00] to experiment with, well, I felt it, but I don’t still really feel like doing it.

Do I have to? So then it goes from this to, to that, you know, it’s, it’s not, you know, bad or anything like that. It’s just a little more insistent and then it, like, you know. Okay, got it. Um, and so that’s the way we train, but first we have to educate and if we’re lucky, we educate, we reinforce. We may never have to correct what I would call correction, what the average dog trainer would think of as a correction.

Um, I, I, I don’t correct. I don’t have to correct most dogs, very few, you know, meaning, give them a moment that, that they really regret. That’s very rare. So I got a quick follow up to that. Something that I, I feel like

a number of people considered taboo. Um, and that is your approach, if any, uh, in [01:42:00] using an eco with fearful dogs. Well, I guess you’d have to give me a scenario. Um, I mean, like a dog who’s afraid of me or a dog who’s afraid of noises. I’ll give you, I’ll give you one that we had, uh, not that long ago. It was, um, uh, a client who brought us a dog.

They had gone somewhere in the Caribbean, I don’t remember, Bahamas maybe, or Oh yeah. They got an island dog or somewhere else, and they ended up bringing home a pot cake. Right. Um, a train one. Now this dog’s lived on the street. Right. It’s entire life. And it’s, or lived on a beach somewhere, and it’s, it’s just never been socialized to people and it’s lived with other dogs.

Yeah. Now all of a sudden its entire world’s flipped upside down. It’s been on, been on a plane, and welcome to the us welcome to a new home. It’s all like that. Yeah. Dogs like that have have something that all predators have. We have it too. Dogs have this as well called neo phobia fear of what is [01:43:00] new, right?

Yeah. And, um, they are the, the, the dogs who have lived a feral life, I mean, they lived on the beach, they’ve been fed handouts, so they’re around people. But they’ve not lived with people. They have not been particularly well handled. And what they have learned is what to avoid. That, that their survival is due to a keen sense of what to avoid.

And then they’re brought into a home, as you say, and now they have to learn it. Um, yeah, you can use any e collar with that dog, but here’s the main thing to remember, the greatest. And I think, by the way, I, I think right now I’m gonna, I’m quoting Chad Mackin. Um, I’m pretty sure I am. The greatest fear is the fear of the unknown.

The dog doesn’t know what to do. So if you teach a dog, um, listen, I’m your rock. I got you. I will advocate for you. First thing is to form that relationship so you can form a bond of trust. So there are dogs that are getting in kennel where maybe I don’t put an e collar on ’em in 20 minutes. Maybe it takes me a week, you know, to get there.

And I’m [01:44:00] forming relationship. I’m teaching them about the walk. I’m teaching them about the steering wheel of the leaf. I’m taking them into nature so that they can smell the things they smell and see what they see, which is distracting. And they’re not distracting in a good way. You know, it’s fulfilling of the primal animal that they are.

Um, and then ultimately what I’m teaching that dog is, I mean, I’m not like pushing the button every time the dog shies away from something. Let’s say the dog is afraid of, I don’t know, trash cans, trash truck, moving cars. There’s a lot of things dogs like that are afraid of. I, I might start walking towards that thing, but I’m looking for the threshold where the dog changes from comfort to discomfort.

And then I wanna work within that threshold. And what I want to be, be able to do is do my eco, just my little tap. Excuse me. It’s fine. We’re gonna go the other way. And then once I can get the dog to go foot further than the otherwise would’ve, I, now I just have a mass problem and I just need to [01:45:00] take my time solving that mass problem.

But the only way you can accomplish it is not like the eco is the magic cure. I, I mean, people say they’re eco trainers. I, I wrote a book about eco training and I don’t call myself an eco trainer. I’m a dog trainer. It’s the dog that I wanna be an artist, and the dog is my canvas, except for the canvas helps paint.

He helps me paint. He paints on me while I’m painting on m. So this is a collab, you know, it’s a collaboration. And um, so can you use an e-collar to help teach a dog not to be fearful? Y yeah, you can, but you don’t attack it head on. What you do is you create a foundation of comfort and leadership and trust with that dog.

So he knows you’re not gonna let me get harmed. Once he understands that, the next thing is, what do you need? And don’t go too fast. ’cause this is nervous for me. You [01:46:00] know, and it’s just like learning how to swim. You got, you got people who throw you into the deep end when you’re a kid. People who teach you to blow bubbles in the bathtub first, and then it’s a progression.

And that’s me. I, I’m, I’m, I’m not throwing anybody into the deep Yeah. We’ve, we’ve, over the years, we’ve had a tremendous amount of success. Very similar situation, low level of stimulation. Mm-hmm. Simply trying to communicate with those dogs. And we’ve had a lot of success rehabilitating them and Yeah. Uh, we’ve a lot the, that even comes down.

But don’t stare at that. Look at me. We’re going the other way. Yeah. So, over the years, we have received a ton of, you know, pushback from people saying, you know, I can’t believe you’d, you’d put a knee collar on a dog that said, but who are you getting pushback from? Owners getting good results. Or trainers Who?

Other trainers. Other trainers. Not owners. You know what, if you can’t do what I can do, just get outta the way while I’m busy doing it. Or, or better yet, if you’d like, let me show you how to do it. ’cause you’re gonna, if I can do anything, I can do, you could do and [01:47:00] I’m happy to show you. Come on around, I’ll be happy to show you.

But if you don’t wanna learn how to do it, if you wanna just, if you want to throw rock at the boat from shore, either get in the boat with me and I’ll show you what we’re doing here, and then you can make an informed decision. Or get outta my way. Get outta my way. You know, I had, I, I’m, I had someone come to my farm to see this.

I was teaching a workshop here, and I’m not gonna mention her name, but she is very well known. I mean, this is a, this is a name I. And she is, uh, very, very well known in the positive, purely positive dog training arena. But I thought it was like remarkable and cool that she wanted to come. I mean, we were nominally friendly with one another.

We just had kind of opposing viewpoints on a lot of things. But nonetheless, she, you know, came here and, um, and she wants, she spent a day watching me work with dogs and students. And what she said to me was, this is beautiful [01:48:00] work, she said, and if I weren’t who I am, I would want all of my associates to come and my assistants to come here and learn this, all of them.

But, and I, I took that as high praise. I understood what it meant was she politically couldn’t bridge that gap. Understood. I know where her funding comes from. I get it. I feel like I know what we’re talking about here. Did the conversation turn into I’d lose my brand, the deals? So, uh, I don’t know. No, no, no.

Okay. I don’t, no. So, but, because it could be a lot of people, I don’t want to narrow it too far down, but No, I, I, I am not sure you’re barking up the right tree. But I think the key point is, is that, um, you tend to get pushback from people who haven’t seen, and I was that guy. I’ve, I, you know, you’re working with a unique hire.

You must be a horrible person. You work with a prong collar, you must be a horrible person. Well, you know, here I am, I guess I’m a horrible, I got, I gotta. Kind of question that’ll merge two things here. Yeah. But we’ll have to [01:49:00] back up a minute. So, yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of folks out there who say, you know, if, if you’re willing to use an eco, you’re this horrible Yeah.

Narcissistic. Overbearing, right. All these horrible things. Right? Yeah. And then you’re saying that you’re teaching a seminar with a bunch of monks who are also helping with an eco seminar, and those two seem to be like polar up monks and horrible people with ecos. How does, how does that mesh? Lemme tell you the first time, uh, after I, I, I told you, I go there repeatedly, right?

Yeah. So this one time I go back and now, you know, I’ve taught enough monks that they’re starting to teach each other. And I come back and it’s this, this is, so this, this really flipped me out. I thought it was amazing they’re going to church, but there were some dogs that had some of their dogs with them, right?

So they’re in robes and they wear, you know, like big wooden crosses and a couple of them had big wooden crosses and, uh, eco, [01:50:00] eco remote controls hanging there. You know, if we could invent a cross with an eco remote built into it, I should probably talk to, you know, eco technology and dog trust, see if they can, you know, work this out, you know, but just if they would just like build that in.

Um, look, that goes back to that conversation we had earlier when I said Brother Christopher came and saw and realized he had a problem. His problem, his words not mine. He’s told this story a lot of times. The problem he had was he saw it was good, he saw it was faster than what he could do and got him further.

’cause he, they, you know, how do you get a dog off leash in in three weeks? You don’t, he was taking six weeks to do it. And then even then, like, you know, was the dog proofed on deer even then? So he knew that he had a problem. And the problem was that, um, he had seen something that he thought worked, uh, better than what [01:51:00] they had been doing at the monastery compatible, but still it was better eCommerce work.

And he felt he had an ethical obligation, a moral obligation to incorporate it into his training routine because it was better, it was jailer and it, it got better and further results off-leash reliability is an, is a, is a lifesaver when it comes to dogs. You know, literally. Yeah. They don’t get hit by cars and they don’t run away from home and all that.

So he felt he had a moral obligation even though he felt, he knew it would be controversial. He knew it would be, but he’s a very courageous person and he decided to talk to his brothers, the other monks and to, uh, move forward. And that’s what they’ve done and they haven’t looked back. And sometimes he does have to explain it to a client ’cause they have dog customers too.

I have to tell him, look, I’m a monk. I’m not in the business to hurt dogs. I’m a monk. And, uh, so sometimes he’ll play the monk cart, you know? And [01:52:00] I, I don’t have that. I have the beard, but that’s as far as I got. Anyway. They make it, they make it work. And people have a tendency to trust monks. Um, which is one of the reasons it’s been such a, an enormous, you know, um, honor for me to, to write books with the monks because there’s just built in credibility and trust.

Um, and that’s what we want. I want that from dogs, but also from people who read the books. Look, quick story. Um, the Monk and I went after, let Dogs Be Dogs. We, we went to, we were, our publisher had us to a book conference in New York City, and there were 10,000 people there. It was this giant, giant con convention.

And, uh, we each had a German Shepherd. We had permission to bring dogs to the building. So he had a German Shepherd. I had one, he had a mo, he had, I, I was just in, you know, casual clothes and he was in a rope. And, uh, a woman came and we were, we had a speaking engagement there, which was [01:53:00] very nice. But a woman came running up to us and said, are you monks?

Are you the monks? And I was like, well, I am not a monk. This one over here, that’s the monk. But yes. And, and, um, she starts hugging him. She like, and then she caught herself. She realized she’s just like attacking a monk. She calmed herself down. I. And then she started to cry telling brother Christopher this story, she said, she goes, this is like 20 years ago.

She said, I had a boxer and I loved this dog, but I didn’t think I could keep him. He was such a crazy, crazy dog. She goes, I was, I was sure I was gonna have to get rid of this dog. She said, but I read your book. And he became the best dog. And I, I had him, she told me I had him since 15 years. He was 15 when I lost him.

’cause we remember, you know, the, the heart dogs, we, we tattoo, we tattoo ourselves in remembrance of the, of them. And it was her heart dog that she almost had to get rid of. And, and so later [01:54:00] I said to Brother Christopher, what an ego boost. Like, wow for you. Like that’s really cool. Like you must feel like, wow.

Yeah. You know, isn’t that like the best part of training dogs is like the of writing books. It’s like the legacy your name will go on, like legacy. And he looked at me and he corrected me gently and he said, mark, the best part of us writing books is we’re helping people like her that we’ve never even met before.

And I was like, I’m such a jerk. Because my mind went to, you know, Hey, my name is like important. It’s there, you know? And he was like, no, he corrected me. He goes, no is you’re helping people that you never even met. That you, you know, and, and, and that’s the power of, of writing is being able to help people.

But. All dog trainers help people. It’s a helping profession. Um, we’re everything that we do helps, helps a family, helps a kid. So with what you’re [01:55:00] mentioning about books being a way to reach people around the world, it makes me think of YouTube, which I’m a very late adopter getting into YouTube. I’m, I’m not much of a video person.

Just in general, are you doing anything video wise, because it’s such an easy way to demystify what you’re doing right. And show people what that looks like? Is that something you’re currently tackling or working on? Well, what’s funny is I have a very small YouTube channel for dogs and have a very large YouTube channel for my hobby, which is reviewing wristwatches.

Uh, so it’s real weird how, you know, how that happened. Yeah. Um, so I look, the majority of my online effort, I, I’m like more of a writer than an on-camera person to be honest. I just, that’s, that’s what I like better. I think YouTube is, offers a real unique opportunity to speak with people directly. So I, I love it.

And I think dog trainers who are in the career building, um, phase of their profession [01:56:00] should utilize it. I, I think it’s a fantastic platform. Um, but I am, I’m not, I’m not, I don’t wanna say I’m winding down my career, but if any more people call me, I’m gonna have to farm ’em out. So, uh, you know, I want Chicago dog trainer.com.

Yes, I’ll train your dog. But. I’m booked out a little while as we go. I guess what I’m trying to say is I prefer the written word, however, for social media, where I really focus my effort is in the, the monks, and I operate a Facebook group by the same name as this book. And there are a lot of videos in the Facebook group for any there.

This book is divided into 16 sequential lessons that start with just how to relax on a leash and end with how to be loose on 500 acres and still responsive to me. Uh, the people who are just listening, it’s the book he’s holding up is the Art of [01:57:00] Training Your Dog, is that Say Right Mark? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Right. Yeah. Yes. The Art of Training Your Dog. So the Facebook group is called The Art of Training Your Dog With an Eco, and it’s, it’s free. You can, you can find it and there’s videos in there and I’m real participatory in that. But it, it, we, it, we use the book as the, as the guide, and then we show what these lessons look like when taught correctly.

So that’s kind of where my video efforts, I guess, really, you know, have gone. So I, I do like YouTube. I just don’t do a lot. I’m, I’m writing another book. I can’t do it all, so I just had to pick one. Yeah. You know, I think I’d love to get into what that other book is, but also just to throw out there something I think would work well for you with YouTube.

Is it so easy to demystify some of those things? Like you mentioned, putting a prong in an eco on a dog on day one. And if people don’t know how that looks, it’s like, oh my gosh, that sounds really scary. Right? Well you’re putting all these tools on, right? Yeah. And then you see it and you’re like, oh, well that’s not scary.

That dog looks like he’s having fun. Yeah. [01:58:00] And there’s some things that it’s amazing what a five minute video can do. Right? Yeah. Fair, fair point. Fair, fair point To put someone at ease. Yeah. I could easily do that. Fair point. See, the thing is about, you know, Dick Russell, who was a, a, a cadre and a, and a kind of a famous curmudgeon, IACP member.

He used, he had a saying that, that he popularized. It ain’t the tool, it’s the fool. Meaning it’s not what tool you’re using, it’s the fool that’s handling it. Um, and so there are, look, you can buy a scalpel at Walgreens for 3 99. 3 99 is a scalpel. You could take out your own appendix with it, but I don’t recommend that.

’cause I don’t know how to do that. Okay. But I do know what to do with a prong collar and an eco. And what I could tell you is if you do it right and you ask the dog, how was that, the dog’s gonna say, that was amazing. That was you. Great. I loved it. Thanks. Because if you use them individually, meaning use only a prong or only an [01:59:00] eco, you’ll put more pressure on the dog.

And if you combine them artfully, artfully. So the, in my, i I, I was grateful to speak at the prior, the last ICP conference, and one of the things I really wanted to focus on was. Teaching the quiet mind because as dog trainers, when we’re young and new to the profession, we wanna gain control immediately.

We think it makes us look better and we just need to like get control instantaneously of a dog. Um, but the problem is, is that we don’t know the dog. The dog doesn’t know us. And usually they’re jumpy, happy, excited, or standoffish, but the mind is not relaxed and quiet. And if you just know how to stand still for five minutes with a prong collar and use it in a specific way that involves no pressure, um, you’ll see the dog calming himself and relaxing.

And, um, then we [02:00:00] can integrate the eco and say, Hey, that means turn around. We’re going the other way. That’s all it means. And, uh, you’re barely gonna feel this, so pay attention puppy. ’cause if you’re excited, you won’t feel it. So pay attention, you’ll feel it. And then it means come here, and then it means sit.

And then it means let’s go. And then it means, Hey, you’re a hundred yards away from me going the wrong way. We’re, I want you to turn around and come back this way. And that’s all it means. You just by context, by body language, you can put this together for a dog in a way that is artful in a way that the dog wants to participate in.

Um, and honestly, it’s not even hard once you know the secret. It’s just hard. Getting to where it’s easy. Okay. But once it’s easy, it’s, it’s like riding a bike. You know? If you’re good at riding a bike or doing anything physical, tennis, knitting, golf, uh, anything that you’re good at, um, it wasn’t easy to get good at it.

But once you’re there, it’s brainless. And for the dog, they learn this much quicker than humans. I can teach a dog way quicker than a [02:01:00] human student way quicker. So, um, yeah, you can put a prong and an eco on a dog in the first five minutes and have that dog, uh, participate and, uh, and, and it can be extremely and should be, and is very, very gentle.

That’s, that’s really the whole point. Absolutely. And I think sometimes it’s, people just need to see it with their own eyes, and when they do, they realize, wow, join my Facebook group. Have a, have a look, look on the Facebook. Yeah. Cool. And there’s more video there than anywhere else. So we were, we’ve talked through a few of your books.

So how many books have you written? Sounds like quite a few asked. So the first, that first book is called Let Dogs Be Dogs. Um, it is about how, how to not train your dog, how to just live with your dog to help them be more cooperative. Uh, and then, so it’s how to live with your dog. And then we wrote The Art of Training Your Dog, how to Train, train your Dog.

And then we wrapped it up with the joy of playing with your dog. So [02:02:00] how to live with your dog, how to train your dog, how to play with your dog all and. This book is really written in a way that takes play and turns it into game-based learning or focused learning. In other words, games that teach a dog how to turn on the off switch, you know, the average dog, you talked about that.

Um, Jason, you, you talked about the lab, the, the crazy knuckleheaded eight month old jumpy lab. I mean, if that dog needed to slow down, stop jumping and actually focus, figure out how to get the treat, he would, he would do it. He would calm himself down. He would figure it out. If you hide the treat and he’s gotta take direction on where to go, how to use the nose, he would take that direction because it’s the way to [02:03:00] get the treat.

He would learn the recall if we didn’t spend half his puppy hood teaching. The anti recall. The anti recall is what we teach puppies when they run across the room and they start picking books off the lower shelf and we yell, Hey, and then they don’t respond ’cause they don’t know what to do. And then we go grab them.

And, uh, what they learn in the first few days in the house is, uh, beware the hands, you know, because everything good is gonna get interrupted by, you know, by that. Um, whereas. If we were luring from the beginning using a drag line. So it talks all that. The, the playbook talks all about how to integrate games and learning into a dog’s life, whether it’s a puppy or a senior citizen.

And um, also we really wanted to talk about socialization. ’cause ’cause of COD, so many of these dogs never got socialized. And, and so there’s a whole section on, uh, believe it or not, [02:04:00] not not just dog play. There’s that too, how to, how to introduce two new dogs, how to let them play, what’s dangerous, what’s not.

But we really, we, we wanted to write extensively about the dog park because dog trainers, we dog trainers tend to not like the dog park, but people who live in cities have no option. And millions of them are using the dog park on the daily, whether we like it or not. And so what we wanted to do is to teach people, if you’re gonna use a dog park, here’s, here’s how, here’s how to, here’s how to make that safer.

Um, ’cause a lot of people are gonna do it no matter what. So we talk all about how to enter the dog park, how to behave in the dog park, how to prep for the dog park. And, and literally we photographed a lot of dog parks so that we could show this behavior is good, this behavior is bad, the neck biting is bad, the foot biting is bad, the humping is bad.

You see any of that? Take your dog out. You see these other types of, you know, wild and crazy plate. Yeah, they’re fine. Um, ’cause most people don’t know [02:05:00] what. Healthy dog play looks like. Interesting. Yeah. The dog park is something else, that’s for sure. Yeah. So we have a whole section on how to make that work for you.

’cause as you know, I like that we dog trainers think of it as Lord of the Flies, you know, survival of the fittest. And it can be that way. But talk about confirmation bias. That seems to be the theme for this podcast. We get pop confirmation bias that the dog park is bad because we see so many people whose dogs have been traumatized by an incident at the dog park.

And we see that, we do see that. It’s legit. It happens. Mm-hmm. We just don’t see the millions of dogs who have a fine time at the dog park never had a problem there. Maybe a scuffle, and they got over it real quick. We just see the, we see the pathology and so I don’t know about you guys, but I’ll be honest, any, anytime I’m on Facebook and I see some meme or some video of some kid hugging a dog, I’m like, Ooh, [02:06:00] don’t do it.

No. Now let me tell you something. In every house across America, 4-year-old children are hugging the family dog 20 times a day. And, and here’s the thing, there’s, there’s something on the order of a hundred million pet dogs in America. And what I’m about to say, although it’s not nice, it does, it is statistically not that significant.

They only treat a hundred thousand dog bites a year at the er. It’s not a lot. So I’m just saying dogs are better at dealing with us than we think. You know, I see ’em hugging a, I see Facebook, they’re, they, the, the pit bull asleep on top of the baby, you know, and they’re like, look, she loves them. And I’m thinking, you know, can that baby breathe?

I don’t like this. Let’s teach space. You know? Uh, but I’m just telling you, we have, we, because we see the worst, we expect the worst. We have confirmation bias [02:07:00] that dog parks are bad. Well, they are if you don’t do it right, but most people manage to make it work, and most dogs make it work because they’re reasonably good at being socialized.

So, um, no, I don’t tell my dog my people to go to the dog park, but I tell them, if you’re gonna please read how to do it so that you can make it a bit safer, you know, when you’re in there, and you know what, again, remember that. Recall. Remember that? Recall. The recall is what allows you to get your dog outta the dog park.

If it breaks bad down the other end and he wants to go see, you know, what’s going on. And actually, okay. One of the main reasons that I really started playing with ecos in a serious way was I had this Doberman and, oh my God, I’d love this dog. I, I’d be dead if it weren’t, that dog saved me in a carjacking, so I would surely be dead.

Um. And I lived in Chicago, in the city. There was nowhere to have a dog off leash except for the dog park, which my closest one [02:08:00] was a beach. It was amazing. ’cause you know, we’re on Lake Michigan, so it was the beach and uh, and it was fenced in. But Dan, if I could get that dog to recall in that park, my own dog, and it was, that was embarrassing.

’cause he liked to teach. So sometimes I’d have to tackle him to get him out of the, just like an owner, you know, I’d have to be like, stupid owner tricks. I’d have to tackle the dog, you know? And then, uh, so I went to the eco seminar and, uh, he was my first Guinea pig. And, uh, soon, soon enough, I had a, a proper recall.

And he would recall at any time, for any reason, for anything except there. It bugged me. I can imagine when they’ve got space to run, it gets harder, that’s for sure. Because he loved dogs. He’d love this dog, loved dogs. And, um, he loved people too, but he, he just loved dogs. And so if I got him into a scenario where he was running with a pack of dogs, oh man, to interrupt him and say, get [02:09:00] here.

Um, yeah, that was real problematic. Um, my, my German shepherd, who I have now, she’s okay. She likes dogs. She, you know, but, but what she loves more than anything is her ball. So she could be anywhere. And if I just went, look what I got, she would’ve, you know, she would abandon any, I one time threw the ball. It landed right next to a rabbit on my farm, and the rabbit froze with fear and my dog approached the rabbit, nudged it outta the way, picked up the ball, and ran back, ran back to me with that, because that’s what she loves.

So that’s her motivator. You know, um, that’s a whole story about that dog too. ’cause it was games, it was, it was not training that, that she was an owner. Give up. Okay? She was crazy. And, um, a real anxiety basket case. And it was play, which training she didn’t need. It didn’t help. Training did not help her.

Play, play helped her focus, play helped her. [02:10:00] It’s written up in, in, in, uh, in the joy of playing with your dog. But at the end of the day, if you know how to live with your dog, if you know how to train your dog, and if you know how to play with your dog, uh, you can drop the rules and formalities and, and you will rarely ever need to give your dog a command because the dog will just ultimately read the room, figure out what behavior is called for at any given time, and kind of offer it.

And that’s the best relationship with a dog when you don’t really have to tell them what to do. They just know. And you had mentioned a minute ago, you’re working on another book, and it sounds like you’re gonna make a world premiere announcement right now. Oh, I can do that. It’s not ready yet. And it’ll, it’ll, it’s not ready yet, and it’ll take a while.

But, um, dog trainers have the best war stories, don’t we? Because I. You met some crazy clients in your, in your world ’cause mm-hmm. And so really remark the problem with dog trainer stories that I have [02:11:00] found Yeah. Is that some of them are so obscure that the only people who would believe that they’re true are other dog trainers.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel, I feel you on that. So the, the, this is where the creativity comes in, in explaining this to non dog trainer people, but who, people who like dogs. So, um, I’ve got a book, I’m, I’m, I’m real deep into it. Uh, I’m, I’m, yeah, probably about 75% done. Anyway, it, it is a book about the most remarkable dogs and the most remarkable people that I’ve met and that the monks have met in this 50 year span.

’cause Chris and I have each been training dogs for something on the order of 50 years. I mean, it’s really crazy. Um, how old we got. We started young. So, so I’ve got two, two questions before [02:12:00] we, before we end up landing the plane here. One is go, going off of that 50 years of experience. You, you’ve been, you’ve been in the industry a long time.

You’ve seen a lot of people, a lot of dogs. Yeah. Uh, you’ve been in the ICP for a really long time. And as you know, we’ve got a lot of younger folks who are coming into the industry. We’ve got a lot of younger folks who are joining the organization. What, um, words of wisdom do you have for those people who are starting out, who may be confused, may be wondering where to look, where to go, where to get information?

How do they, how do they make sure they’re on solid ground, uh, starting their career? Yeah. I, I made some of the best friends I’ve ever had and ever will have in my life. I’m, I, our people who I met at ICP conference and through ICP Weld. Now of course we have Facebook. My, my day we had something called List Serves, which were email groups, [02:13:00] Yahoo Email Group.

So, uh, and that’s how ICP members. We communicated with each other and helped each other and learned from one another. So I will just say that I have made some of the best friends of my entire, li lifelong friends who I met through IICP, whether it was, uh, uh, in a, in a social media group, or better yet in conference where you can network with people.

And I found that unlike when I was a child and people really didn’t want to share information that the ICP environment was so safe and so welcoming where information was just so freely given. Um, well, I just showed you all those books. I met Brother Christopher at IACP, and that’s where we connected. Um, I wouldn’t have even been there if it hadn’t have been for one of the founders, Mary Mazzer, you know, who, uh, who insisted that I join the IACP.

Um, and then when I walked into my first conference, my first conference [02:14:00] was the second one we ever had. And I was a little nervous ’cause I was, I didn’t know all these people. And I, I just, I walk in and, uh, there was a lady setting up at a table and I said, is, am I in the right place for the IACP? And she looked up

and she said, oh, you’re Mark Goldberg. We’re expecting you. And I said, how’d you know that? Well, back in those days, you had to put a picture on your application. She said, that’s what the picture’s for. I said, well, who are you? Nice to meet you. And I put my hand out and she smacked mine. And she literally just whs smacked my hand outta the way.

And she said, this is the ICP. We hug. We hug. This is a family. And that was Pat [02:15:00] Tricker who died a couple years ago. She was one of the founders along with her husband Martin. That whole IACP resided in her dining room, in all her files and all the pictures, and she had memorized every face. And this was the IACP and we did hug.

You know, I, I miss, I miss them really a lot. But what I can tell you is these connections are human connections and it’s the human connections that have rocketed me forward, uh, with more information, with more knowledge, with, with security, really. Because if I ever had a problem, I got 30 people I can call and I still have problems.

30 people can call me too. So I feel that the ICP, what it does is it takes a very lonely profession. ’cause you said nobody who would understand a dog trainer story, but a dog trainer. Our lives are so weird. You know, it’s such a strange, you know, [02:16:00] privileged in many ways, challenging in many ways, but definitely strange, odd, you know, unique.

It’s a very unique lifestyle and who else would understand it? Um, and uh, a lot of times dog trainers afraid to talk to one another because of dog trainer wars and conflicts and philosophy differences. But I find that the ICP that gets set aside and people are just generous there. So that was a long way for me to say, if you really wanna know, uh, how to.

How to progress in your profession is like, don’t do it alone. Do it and do it with your family. And that’s what, that’s what the ICP gave me was a family. Awesome. That is, that’s awesome. Thanks for sharing it. Last, last grab here. So you were president, and as you know, I’ve been doing this for a little while.

What’s, what’s your words of wisdom for me? Well, I’ll tell you, remember a lot of faces between now and July. I will tell you this, just remember, it’s not a [02:17:00] life sentence. So you have to prepare your exit, you know, bring, bring good people along. And then, um, one day you say, oh my gosh, look over there. And then you run like hell in the other direction.

And then once you’ve done that, answer the phone for six months and then stop answering the phone writing. I’m writing this down. I was gonna say, Jason’s taking notes over there. He is. He’s got it. Yeah. I, I, uh, you know, we were young and in my era, the whole organization was young. We were not financially stable.

It was all a little scary. And my whole, you know, my whole philosophy was not on my watch. You know, it doesn’t go down the, this ship doesn’t go down on my watch, you know, and, uh, I’ve, I’ve been pleased to see that it, that it hasn’t. So, uh, yeah, no. Listen, for those of you who are out there listening, um, not only should you let me, let me give you a couple reasons why you should join ICP and become active in it.

Because first of all, [02:18:00] the, what a lot of members don’t realize is there are many forces who would really like to control your living and possibly interfere with it, or even take it away from you. They want to control what tools you can use. Um, you say, oh, I don’t use eco, so I don’t care about tools, really.

’cause a lot of them want to take away anything that’s not a harness. Um, there are so many laws that get put forward by legislators who don’t really understand dogs or dog training and in, on the state and local level. Uh, and the ICP is all over this stuff. The, they, they have stopped and controlled legislation that would’ve put half the dog trainers in Illinois outta business.

So being a member of a professional group is a way of protecting your own, you, you know, your own environment. And then it’s extremely fulfilling to get involved as a director, as a volunteer. Um, so I just recommend that [02:19:00] people contact head office and see what it is that they can do. Awesome. Yeah, it’s amazing.

Well said. Yeah. So my takeaways are everyone listening, just know now that Jason’s gonna be hugging, literally everybody that comes through the door and remembering faces. Yes. So if he doesn’t remember your face or you don’t get your hug, obvious, it’s a lot now than it used to be. Raise a little hell if you don’t get your hug from Jason.

Our first few conferences there were like 30 of us, you know? Now it’s like, we’re like, now it’s like, wow, we’re big kids now look at this. Those were all in Texas, right? Yeah, yeah. At hu Yeah. I mean, the entire ICP once got thrown out of the Salt Grass restaurant, the entire ICP. We were rowing, we were happy we were drinking, we were having a great time, and we were apparently a little loud and obnoxious.

So the whole YCP got thrown out of us all. We talked our way back in, but that’s wild. [02:20:00] So as we start wrapping up, where can people find your stuff? So where are your books sold? Where you, I mean, you have a website, you know, tell us everything you can. Okay. Well, um, listen, you could just put Monks of News skit, or my name Mark with a c Mark Goldberg, uh, into Amazon, you know, and you’ll come up with all my books that I wrote with the monks.

Um, they’re sold on Amazon is an easy place to get ’em, but they’re in Barnes and Nobles. Any bookstore has ’em or can order ’em. So they’re wherever books are sold. audible.com. Uh, also has ’em, so you can listen to these books. Um, they’re on, uh, Kindle and they’re on Apple iBooks. So they’re, you know, where wherever you can buy a book.

And, uh, in, in 37 different countries, and I know this because I took a, sat a headcount in our Facebook group for the book, which has about 5,000 people in it. It tells me where they’re from and they’re from 37 different countries. So that really makes me happy because the, it gives us [02:21:00] really kind of like global reach.

And then, um, this book, the, uh, joy of playing with Your dog is being translated into Polish right now. And we’ll be on bookstores in Poland and I’d love to see that in other countries too. So it’s, uh, it’s kind of a cool thing. [email protected] or the art of training Your dog.com, either one.

Awesome. Well, I mean, we are just, I guess as we wrap, we’re just a panel of weirdos. Is, is that the phrase from earlier panel of weirdos? I’m pretty sure this is panel, panel of weirdos talking about confirmation bias. I I think we, we can grow that title. It’s a weird obsession, but you know what it is, uh, it is the best job you’ll ever complain about.

Absolutely. And Mark, thank you for taking the time to come on. We appreciate it. This was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, been a pleasure. I really appreciate it guys. Yeah, absolutely. Welcome to Dog Pro. Radio. Radio, [02:22:00] radio, go this in do pro radio you at to tow Pro Radio. Brings back the buses to pro radio and made alike snow radio.

Press back tonight to Pro To radio. Bus. To phone. Radio. When.