Antonio, welcome to Dog Pro Radio. What’s up, brother? Happy to be here. Yeah, man, I’m excited to have you on. You’ve been, we’ve had people asking for us to get you on, so we, we finally did it. 

That’s funny. When I saw you at Conference with the setup, I was, I didn’t want to be too pushy, but I was like, looking at the, I was like, I wanna sit down and have a conversation.

So I’m glad we’re able to at least do it here. 

Man, I wish we had been able to at conference, we would’ve gotten a lot of views on that. People would, and you know, people at home, like I know we got a lot of feedback thinking it was cool to see who all was at conference, who was wandering around. So I know people would’ve dug that.

I wish we could have done that. 

Yeah, I didn’t wanna be rude though. I felt like most of the, um, the conversations were with the speakers, you know, after their presentations, so I didn’t, I didn’t know when there was like a, if there was a right time to kind of jump in there. So I didn’t want to be, I wouldn’t wanna be too pushy, 

man.

It was a new thing. Our hope next year is to do a lot more of that, like, you know, a lot more sit down interviews. So hopefully we’re able, able to make that happen. 

Yeah, I think it’s a great idea. Even like a, like a new member type thing, you know, having somebody sit down like, or a first conference, like, tell me about your first conference.

What’s going on? What do you think? You know, so, ’cause I mean, it was my first conference, so, and it was amazing. I had a, I had a really great experience overall. 

That was, that’s awesome. And I think we should definitely dive into some IACP stuff at, at some point today for sure. Well, let me do a quick introduction for you.

Yeah. Uh, my guess is all of our listeners probably know who you are already. If they own a cell phone or a computer and are in the dog world, they have to know who you are. But we have Antonio Diaz of Leader of the Pack canine training. I did some, I pulled some numbers today, Antonio, and I wrote ’em down so I won’t remember.

You’ve got some beefy numbers online. I saw 449,000 Facebook followers, 676,000 Instagram followers and 1.4 million TikTok followers. That’s pretty wild. Good job, dude. 

Yeah, and thanks everybody that follows me. I appreciate you guys. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. 

When are you gonna start an OnlyFans? Because I, I looked you don’t seem to have one of those and that’s where the money’s at, right?

Yeah, I guess so. I don’t know, man. I’m, I’m a married man and so I don’t feel like I got any business in that realm, so, 

uh, but those numbers are wild. I knew you had a big following, but as I was adding it up, I was like, man, it’s more than a couple million when you add those numbers up. That’s crazy. 

Yeah, I know.

It is crazy. It’s, it’s also what’s crazy for me because there was a point where. I was really hesitant and reluctant to start putting content out there because I knew that in the dog training world, it can be very polarizing. And so I figured I’d probably get a lot of pushback when I was in, when I was in school, one of my instructors said that you’ll know that you’re a really, uh, balanced trainer when you’re getting heat from both sides, you know?

Yes. And, uh, and, and I’ve gotten that. So I’m like, okay, that’s where I want to be. You know, when people are yelling at me like, oh, the dog needs punishment. It’s like, nah, I, no, he doesn’t. And they’re like, oh, the prong call is abuse. Like, nah, no it’s not. So that’s how I know, but I’ve kind of gotten comfortable with, you know, having opinions thrown at me.

And, uh, and then in a lot of ways it’s kind of fueled my, my drive to post content. There was actually a guy on TikTok years ago that I came across his page and he, he was very much like force free only, and he was demonizing training tools and balanced trainers. And I actually saw him and I thought. I don’t wanna have a back and forth with this guy.

Like, I’m not trying to argue with anybody. But it really fueled me to create my own content that, that showed my style of training, like my philosophy in the training world and how I do things. And, and I think for anybody out there that’s watching and is thinking about maybe starting, uh, creating their own content, um, I would say be yourself and be truthful about the way that you, that way you coach your clients, the way you work with dogs.

And, um, and then, you know, if it resonates with people, they’ll follow you plain and simple. 

I think that’s, that’s good advice. I like that. What, what you said about when you make balance training videos, you’re gonna piss off everybody. 

Yeah, pretty much. And 

you have a, you have a video with a prong. And I don’t mean you specifically.

I’ve got some like this with a prong collar and treats, and you have some people complaining that you’re using treats to teach the dog to come. And then others that are mad, you have a prong. And yeah, like, are you guys watching the same video? 

I know one of my first viral videos on TikTok, it was me. Um, it was a simple tip, man.

It was like, and, and that’s one another thing too, is like, it was a video that I really didn’t think much of it. I just made it, I was like, this is what I do. This is something I teach people and I wanna share it. And it blew up. And, um, it was me working with a dog and I was like, if your dog is cutting in front of you.

You’re feeding them from the opposite side. That’s probably why. ’cause your dog is walking here and you’re feeding them from this side, so they’re gonna cut in front and try to, you know, meet you in the middle and get that food faster. And this, there was a, a person, I don’t know who they are, but they were just like, you know, you don’t need food to train a dog and you know, if you’re using food, they’re gonna be, uh, you’re bribing them and all this other nonsense.

And so I just thought it was funny. I’m like, you know, you really can’t win in the dog training world regardless of what you’re trying to do. So, but it is what it is. I like it. So it’s kind of fun sometimes. 

That is one of the challenges of social media though. I, I feel like where everything is such small snippets that Yeah.

The people who say that, you know, with food, that you’re just bribing. Like that’s a fair point. If you never eliminate the food and that’s the only way they’ll listen. Absolutely. 

Yeah. But 

I think they hear what they wanna hear. Right. Or they see what they wanna see. But it can be hard. You’re talking, I’m assuming about a TikTok length video.

Mm-hmm. There’s no way you can get in all the information you want to that Right. You have to, yeah. You put in what you can. 

Yeah. And you know, that was another thing for me that was very difficult early on because when I think about any particular situation in the dog world, it’s, as you know, it’s interconnected with all these other variables and situations.

So if I’m giving advice about a particular dog, this is really relative to this dog, it’s specific to this dog, it doesn’t necessarily relate to every other dog. And it may not, um, resonate with a lot of people that have a different type of dog. And that was something that was difficult for me because. In the world of short form content, you know, in my mind I’m like, okay, but then there’s this, this, this, and that.

And so then I’m off talking for 10 minutes about one particular topic. So it was hard at first to take a, an idea and then really shrink it down to like one particular point and make the video about that so that, that required a little work. In fact, I’m trying to, I’m actually trying to reverse engineer that, uh, with regard to, um, not Facebook, but YouTube, because YouTube is long format.

And so now when I have videos, I’m watching them and I’m like, I need to cut this out and get that out and kind of get to the point. But on YouTube, people want all that information. They want the little details. They want you to expand a little bit more. So that’s something that I’m trying to like shift my brain around because I’m so used to that short form content and just delivering like a valuable snippet of information in a short period of time.

Yeah. And that goes back to, you know, be yourself and then you’ll find the right audience. Absolutely. And if you watch some of Larry Crohn’s stuff on YouTube, you know, they’re like, he’ll just show a whole session of him working with the dog, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it’s not like sexy and quick with shortcuts and all of that.

It’s just like, but it’s good dog training, right? And that resonates with people and maybe doesn’t resonate with 19 year olds, but it resonates with someone ’cause he is got a huge following and people love it. 

Yeah. And same with Robert Cabral. Like I’ve seen videos of his where, you know, he’s just talking about something and he’ll have a 15 minute video where he’s just talking about it, explaining things and breaking it all down.

And it’s, it’s kind of hard, I would say, for some of some of those people that, and including myself to a degree. ’cause you’re, you’re wanting to cr to create content that’s valuable and you also want to be seen. And so there’s this, this, I I would say difficulty. Something that I’ve worked through where a lot of times I’ll make content and I’m not necessarily expecting for, I don’t, it’s, the goal isn’t for it to go viral, it’s just to give information.

And I think it’s important for anybody out there that’s wanting to make content, not to be so caught up in, you know, how many views you get or anything like that. Because ultimately for me, I try to be grounded in the goal of helping at least one person. If one person watches that video and they’re like, oh my God, that just blew my mind, like, I’m gonna go apply this right now, then that’s really where the value comes from.

And anything in addition to that is just a bonus. So if it happens to go viral, great. You know, but if you do it from a place of service and trying to help people, I think that that’s a really, really valuable place, uh, to be. 

I think that’s great advice. And I think we’ve all seen some channels that’ll have something go viral, but they have no other content.

Yeah. So even if you get lucky with one video, it’s probably not all that useful if you haven’t built. Exactly. All the other, built an audience already and have other content ready to go. 

Yeah, definitely. 

Well, why don’t we take a step back and can, why don’t you walk us through, how did you get into dog training, and then just walk us through your whole story.

How’d you get to where you are now? 

Yeah, man, so I hate, it sounds a little cliche, but I’ve loved dogs ever since I was a kid. Matter of fact, this dog, this, the book of the Complete Dog book, I had a book similar to that. I bought that book because it reminded me of a book that I had when I was a young boy, when I was about three, four years old.

I took a dog from the street and tried to bring him into my home, like legit. Um, and I don’t, I don’t even know how a 3-year-old ends up acquiring a dog, but I remember there was a, his name was Rex. I do remember that, um, when I was a boy, man, I loved dogs. There was a, a dog, a German Shepherd, like two houses down.

His name was Poncho. Have you ever seen the Sandlot? He was, he was my version of the dog from Sandlot, right? Like all the neighborhood kids were afraid of him. He got out one time and I just remember like looking at this dog and I just, just stared at him and he just walked away from me and it was incredible.

And, um, yeah, I have all these memories of dogs when I was a young kid and I loved dogs and I wandered a dog so bad and I finally convinced my parents to get me a dog when I was about eight years old. Her name was Tonka and she came from the A-S-P-C-A. Uh, and by the time I was about nine, I had trained her to speak, roll over, hold a bone on her nose, and then flip it in the air and catch it, um, give paw crawl, all these things, right?

And, and I was just like obsessed with my dog. I loved my dog. Well fast forward, you know, I become a teenager and, and you know, and then teenage stuff gets in the way. And so then I become a young adult. And it wasn’t until I was about 30 years old, um, I got into a motorcycle accident. And I don’t know what it was about that accident, but it, that was like the catalyst.

And after the accident, I kind of was a little depressed and for whatever reason, the only thing that I wanted in my life at that time was a dog. And so I started looking at, and then, forgive me everybody, but I was on Craigslist looking for dogs. And I had no idea at the time that it was such a taboo thing, right?

So don’t come at me, don’t come for me. But, so anyway, I find this dog. I, it was, I was at work and the plan was to go see two dogs. One was a, like a male pity. And then this female shepherd, I went to see the pity. They had a couple other dogs. It felt like a backyard breeder situation. Just really wasn’t digging it.

And uh, I was like, I’m good. I went to go see the shepherd and the, the guy who was um, they were rehoming the dog because his wife was allergic to the dog and she was a nine week old German Shepherd puppy. The guy was in the Air Force. And so we met in a parking lot after my work. And, um, the dog, she just came running into my arms.

And it was just like, at that moment I was like, you’re coming home with me. There’s just no question about it. And I became obsessed with training. I wanted to have a dog that I could take anywhere, um, that I could take on hikes and be active with and, um, not have to worry about the dog being aggressive.

I didn’t want anyone to see me with my dog and think like, you need to get control of your dog. So I took training very, very seriously. And as I like to tell people, I kind of became obsessed with it. Even my wife would say to me, she’s like, babe, can we leave Brooklyn at home? And I would say, why? And she’d go, because you don’t pay attention to me.

All you do is work with her. And I’d, and I’d be like, babe, she’s a puppy. I have to train her. You know, I need to bring, be able to bring her anywhere. And so this kind of created this, this thing where I was, I would go out in public and I’d have her with me all the time, and people would always compliment me.

So then I started to think, well, and I was also in a place in my life where I, I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life. So. I had worked on motorcycles. I used to be overweight and I lost a lot of weight. I got really fit. So I was like, I could be a motorcycle mechanic ’cause I work on motorcycles. I could be a personal trainer, I could be a dog trainer.

And I didn’t know. So I finally decided that I was gonna go to school and work on dog training because I felt like that was where it was for me and I was right. So I was the kind of person where I didn’t want to, because I trained my own dog to just be the guy who’s like, oh, I’m a dog trainer, so you need to take advice from me.

I’m, we all know some of those people. Yeah. You know, and I didn’t want to be that guy. But there was one pivotal moment for me that made me realize that I needed to go to school. And it was, I was at the park with my shepherd. Throwing her Frisbee as I normally would, you know, doing some, you know, minor, obedient stuff.

And this lady had, I think it was Avila and the dog came around and she took something of mine and ran off with it. And the lady was, she was just like completely embarrassed chasing her dog around. And it was that moment that I wanted to help her. And I was, I just really wanted to say, Hey, I can help you.

I, I can work with you, I can work with your dog. But before I did that, I questioned myself and I said, well, what if, what if she needs help beyond what you’re able to give her? And so that was a thought was like, okay, well how do I educate myself to a point where I can actually help people? And so then I started, that was like the seed that was kind of growing inside of me.

And then I would say about a year or so later, I finally decided to pull the trigger and go to school. So I went to StarMark in 2016, um, graduated at the top of my class, and as soon as I came home, I got right to work. Came home, started the business, or at least the legal process of starting a business.

And I started reaching out to local rescues and offering my services for free so that I can continue to work with dogs and also help these dogs get homes. So a lot of my work, uh, early on with rescues was volunteer. I didn’t ask for any money. I didn’t want any money. It was my way of giving back to the community.

That really helped in a lot of ways. Number one is it helped put me in front of rescues. It helped make them aware of a new trainer on the scene. Uh, it also helped me fine tune my skills and learn my craft and really start to understand dogs more. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen trainers go to shelters and work with dogs and go, see, you don’t need to do this with a dog.

See, you don’t need to do that with the dog. Look, they’ll just take treats. And I thought to myself, well, you know, bring the dog into your home and see how the dynamic changes. See how the behavior starts to unfold now that the dog is comfortable in the home setting. See how your, how this rescue dog interacts with your dog, with your children, with your wife, with your husband, or whoever it is, your mother, your father, because those things change.

So it was important for me to be able to bring a dog into my home and work with them. At my own pace and learn each dog as an individual. And that really helped propel me in the community because the rescues would recommend me. And um, from there you can say the rest is history. I mean, I just, uh, I really enjoy helping people and I think that that comes through a lot when I work with my clients.

So when you started going to rescues quite a bit, you’re a new dog trainer, fresh outta school, I’m assuming balanced training methods. Mm-hmm. Did you get pushback from any of the rescues and did any of them say, Hey, we’re purely positive here, or we don’t believe in tools. Was was that an issue at all? 

Um, no, not directly.

There were some people that I interacted with, uh, that were like, ’cause there’s a lot of trainers that work with rescues, you know, and or, and rescues will even reach out to some trainers to see if they can help with the situation. So I never, I wouldn’t say that I got pushback per se, but, um, I, I definitely have.

I would be in the same. Realm with other trainers that weren’t using any tools. Um, but no one ever really said anything to me. And I think as far as the rescues were, were concerned, what they could see from me in the way that I would teach and instruct them, it seemed it’s fair. It just seemed fair and it made sense.

Uh, and plus I’ve worked with a few rescues that would even mention how there were like force free trainers and trainers on the other side, let’s say compulsion based, that they were just like, yeah, you know, they were having us avoid stuff a lot or I think they were giving too hard of a correction for the dog.

And I would always come in and kind of find the balance to that because I, and I think within the realm of dog training, even in a certain situation, I can go from having to give a dog, let’s say, a strong correction to now I’m rewarding them like crazy, um, because I’m trying to be clear with communication.

And there are many different reasons for that. But I think that they saw that. So I was lucky enough that I never really had anybody. Questioning or pushing back because they could see for themselves that the dog was actually, uh, progressing, they were doing better and that the dog wasn’t shutting down or anything like that.

You know, what you just said, I think is one of the harm hallmarks of a really good dog trainer. And it people, it’s not a human skill. It’s a more of a dog skill. The ability to go from correction to praise or happiness instantly. 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, humans 

obviously dwell on stuff, right? And like after punishment, the human, you know, that’s being punished, might still be unhappy and the person that did the punishment might be unhappy, a parent, child, whatever.

But obviously dogs aren’t like that. I know. I coach clients in that all the time. If you have to correct, do it, and then right away it’s done. ’cause that’s what dogs do. You watch a dog correct another dog, and it’s done instantly. Right after that, it’s back to itself. 

Yeah. I, I tell people sometimes, like, good cop, bad cop, you’re both, you know, you want to be firm, but you then, but then you wanna.

It’s like, Hey, it’s all good. I’m not mad at you. And it’s important too. And I think that’s something that I’ve found very valuable to help people with because they, when they have to correct their dog, a lot of times it’s out of frustration. Mm-hmm. Which is understandable, but it’s important to not dwell in that frustration and be in that state of frustration.

So if you’re able to give a correction without emotion, I usually tell people, pour the emotion into the positive reinforcement side. ’cause that’s really where we want it. We want that emotional component. We want happiness, we want joy, we want excitement in most cases, right. When we’re rewarding. Um, and then the punishment though, should be without emotion, should be very cut and dry.

Mm-hmm. Like, not mad at you. No hard feelings, but can’t do that. 

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Please visit www.nknine.com for more information back to the show. People do seem to struggle with that. And I think it’s, some people seem much more comfortable with punishment or correction and others feel much more comfortable with praise. Yeah. And it’s hard to get that balance right. Of it is being able to correct and with no emotion and then immediately praise the hell out of them and get them back to your heel side, or especially leash reactivity.

I don’t know exactly, you know, what you’re coaching clients on, but we’re gonna redirect, we’re gonna break the focus, and then we’ve gotta switch instantly into praise and talking to them. 

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. One of the difficulties I would say is working with clients on either end of the extreme, people that are just like, you know, the idea of putting on an eco, a prong collar, they’re just like, I can’t do it.

You know, they, I can see it in them. They’re like, oh my God, we’re, we’re gonna hurt them. And then I have other people that are just really hard on the dogs and mm-hmm. They have this different outlook on the relationship between humans and dogs. And I think both people can be difficult in my experience, to kind of bring into the middle, um.

Sometimes, to be completely honest, I think the people that are more compulsion based or view this, view dogs as like, Hey, you need to listen to everything I say. I think those people sometimes are a little bit harder to sway to the side of like, Hey, you need to ease up. You gotta be compromising. You have to, you know, look at it from the dog’s perspective.

This isn’t happening because they’re just being an asshole. They’re, they’re, they’re nervous or, or something like that. So sometimes it’s harder to get through to those people, especially because there might be a lot of frustration built within them and in their relationship with their dog. So they’re just kind of, they’re, they’re, they’ve had it up to here, so to speak, you know, and I, and I have to come in and go, Hey, we need to take a step back.

But, um, I think I found a really good way to communicate with people and at least show them, like, let me show you. And you can see with your own eyes how we can start to get your dog to turn around, whether it’s with using more praise, being a little gentler with them, a little compromising, or being a little bit more firm and saying, Hey, you need to stop being pushy.

There’s a boundary. 

That’s the biggest part of our job, right, is yeah, coaching clients. I love it, 

man. It’s my favorite part, to be honest. Well, that was, the dog stuff is easy. 

Actually, my next question was what’s the, your favorite part of being a dog trainer? So, 

uh, yeah, I would say my, my first, the, the, the most favorite thing for me is really, um.

Seeing people get it, like seeing the light switch, seeing, seeing them see their dog succeed and understanding that process and going, I see what I’ve been doing wrong. I know what I need to do now. I love that. Matter of fact, we just finished up our, uh, three day workshop yesterday and a handful of my clients, you know, came up to me after the workshop and they’re just like, I can’t believe that my dog is doing this in three days.

And I’m like, I know, but the, you know, the job’s not done yet, but, you know, we’re just getting started. But, um, but it’s just, that’s such a great feeling and it just always makes me get a little emotional ’cause I feel it’s like a reminder that I am where I’m supposed to be in my life and doing what I’m supposed to do with my time and my, and my life here.

Um, and then the other thing is just seeing dogs. Learn, like watching them get it, watching them figure it out. I’ve had a lot of dogs that have come into my care through rescues over the years, and even my wife will say, she’s like, I can’t believe this is the same dog. I’m like, I know it’s great, right? To see them, you know, like shut down and nervous and afraid of everything to being confident and curious and going up to things where people, and investigating, and then dogs that are just completely outta control, settling down and learning to be more calm and not so anxious.

Like, that’s the other thing for me that that really, uh, makes what I do very enjoyable. 

It, I mean, no question. We’ve got such a rewarding job where we’re able to, yeah, change people’s lives and dogs’ lives, and I feel like there’s pretty few jobs where you get to really change someone’s life on a daily basis.

It’s pretty awesome. 

I agree. Yeah. I’ve often thought about the trainers that say things like. You know, I don’t like, I hate people or I can’t stand people, and I’m like, I don’t know if you’re really in the right business though. You know? Unless you’re just training dogs. Like only, and I don’t know how.

That would really work. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. If you’re just training the dog and maybe giving the dog to somebody else to teach another person how to handle that dog, but it’s, there’s, there’s really is no way around having a human interaction when you’re in the dog training world. So I think people that are struggling with that and don’t like people and need to like reassess or at least try to get a little bit happier with people, I don’t have any issues.

Like, a good example for me is I’ve had a lot of people, uh, clients and just random strangers when I in conversation, I let them know what I do for work and they’ll say, I bet, I bet it drives you crazy when you see a dog pulling at the end of the leash. And I go, actually, it doesn’t bother me at all. And they go, really?

Why not? And I’m like, because first of all, that’s none of my business. You know, I really don’t care if a lot of people are happy with that. They think that they’re just like, yeah, I’m just letting my dog enjoy the environment. They’re, they’re on a nari as they like to say. And you know, that’s fine. I tell people it’s not a problem for me unless it’s a problem for you and you want my help.

Then I’ll make it my problem. But other than that, I really don’t care. As long as your dog isn’t outta control to the point where they’re running up on me and my dogs, I don’t really care. So I say to each their own, whatever makes you happy. If you don’t like your situation and you want help and you, you reach out to me, I will gladly make it my problem for you.

I think a probably all young dog trainers have, or newer dog trainers have experienced that, right? Trying to offer help to someone who doesn’t want it is that’s gonna go nowhere. 

Yeah. And honestly, I get it because I, I honestly, I, here’s an example. I, I could not stand when I would see, um, people like dressing up their dogs or like walking their dogs in strollers.

Or I remember the first time I went to someone’s house, a client’s house, and they had potty pads out. I was like, you know, in internally, I’m like, ah, you know, uh, but I have changed a lot. Because first of all, I met a client who, they had their dog trained on potty pads. It was a little Yorkie. And so I said to ’em, I was like, Hey, what?

What’s up with the potty pads? You are you trying to get rid of those? And you know, I’m trying to like push ’em to get rid of ’em. And they’re like, well actually we travel a lot. And so we train her to go to the bathroom on the potty pads because sometimes we don’t really have access to outside, you know, we might be in a hotel room like all the way at the top floor.

It’s just convenient. And I said, okay, I can understand that. And then, you know, I had a client that had to put their dog in a stroller because of health issues. And so I started to reflect back on times that I was judgmental of people that were walking their dog in a stroller. Like, oh my God, look at them.

They’re, they’re humanizing their dog, you know? And now I look at it, I’m like, who cares? Who cares if I walk around? It’s just like anything else, man. If you’re just looking at everything in life and you’re just mad about it, then what kind of person are you gonna be? Let alone what kind of trainer are you gonna be in your profession?

So, I, I genuinely do not care if your goal is to get your dog out of a stroller. I, I like to help you. If you don’t want to use potty pads and you need my help, I’d like to help you. 

I think that’s probably really good advice for a lot of newer trainers to hear. And something, the way I frame it is if it’s not a quality of life issue for your dog.

I really could care less, you know? And same, an example would be if someone refuses to walk their dog and get ’em outside, I will tell them like that this is not a fair life for the dog. It just isn’t. Agreed. 

Agreed. Yeah. 

You wanna use potty pads and like, I would never, I don’t, I shouldn’t say never. I rarely recommend it, but yeah, 

if I was in a client’s 

house, if they’re not talking to me about potty training and, and I saw potty pads wouldn’t even be on my radar to discuss.

There’s yeah. So many other more important things to focus on. 

Yeah, I agree. And another way too, for me is, and, and the thing that I would say is with regard to like access to furniture, a lot of people have their dogs on the couch, or they’ll say, and I think this is a reflection too, of what, how people view dog trainers.

Because I’ve been to a lot of homes where when I ask people questions, they go, I know you’re gonna be mad at me, but, and I go, no, it’s fine. It’s not a big deal. And I, and I like, and I always tell ’em like, listen, I’m not black and white. Like, oh, I never do this and never do that. I think that there usually, there’s gonna be some room for an exception somewhere, right.

And not everything is very black and white. I think quality of life is black and white though. You know, we need to be, uh, doing, we need to get the dogs out and, you know, give them some structure and things like that. But I tell people all the time, like, look, if it’s not a problem for your dog to be on the couch and there’s no aggression issues, there’s no issues in their relationship or anything like that resource guarding, then I really don’t have a problem with it.

If you want your dog on the couch, that’s fine. Right? But if it’s a problem and that needs to be a part of the equation, removing that access, then I’ll let you know. 

So how have you evolved over the years? So, on that, I mean, on that exact point, so I started training in 2006, and I can pretty much guarantee the first five years of my career I would’ve told everybody, do not let your dog on the couch.

You know, stop them when they jump up. Here’s how we do it. It would’ve been on, I, I know it was on my list of like, this is something we shouldn’t allow. 

Yeah. And 

I’ve, I’ve evolved over the years. I could, like you said, as long as there’s no aggression. I could care less if your dog is on the couch, but that was definitely an evolution.

Yeah. 

Whether it’s that topic or something else, how have you evolved over the years? What are some big changes you’ve seen? 

Well, I think the, in terms of like how I’ve evolved, I think the answer to that would be that I’ve, I genuinely have listened to my clients and their needs and try to be empathetic and put myself in their shoes and understand that may like a, a good way to put it is.

You as a client do not need to live your life with your dog the way that I live my life with my dog. And I think that’s a really important thing to mm-hmm. To, to, especially early on, like if you’re a young dog trainer or even if you, you know, older and you’re just getting into dog training, just think about that.

Like, people do not need to live their lives with their dogs the way that you live your life with your dog. Right? And that, to me, that was really important to understand that early on. And a good example of that was, I’ll never forget the first time that this became a thought in my mind. I had an, uh, older clients.

They had a young puppy, a German shepherd, and the dog was just outta control. And we were going over sit stays, and you know, the dog goes into a sit and then she laid down and the, the wife asked me, she goes, is that okay? And I was like, no, we asked for a sit. We need to sit not a down. And the husband says, hold on a second, I’ll be honest with you.

He goes, I’m just happy that she’s not moving. The fact that she lays down, I don’t give a crap. And I said to him, fair enough. I thought to myself, okay, well I’m not gonna press this guy. Like, no, your dog needs to sit. Because he was clearly happy with where they were. Was I happy? No, I needed, and, and, and then I thought about that.

So I literally had to reflect on it, I think to myself, okay, well how come I’m bothered by that? Why do I need the dog to sit when I say sit and not down? And the answer to that was because I’m the professional. I can’t have my dog. Lay down when I asked for a sit, right? So it would look bad if I walk around and I tell my dog, sit and they’re laying down.

Everyone’s gonna look at me like, this guy’s a joke, right? He’s supposed to be a professional, but yet his dog isn’t even doing what he asked. So that was where I was coming from. Now I had to look at the client and go, well, where are they coming from? They’re just happy to have their dog calmer and just laying down and relaxing.

So if the dog ends up going, drifting into a down when we ask for a sit, and I told, and so that became a new way that I saw, I started to teach and I would, I would offer compromising to people. And I think that that was something that, how I evolved was I became more compromising to the individual client based on what they needed and what they were looking for, you know?

And I think that that’s really important for people to see. What does success look like to your client? What does that feel like to them? It doesn’t have to be, ’cause I’ve, I worked with a lot of dogs and clients around. I’m like, I think the dog could be doing a lot better, but the owner’s happy. And that’s, that’s really what matters.

So, and I, you know, I would say don’t lose sleep over that stuff. I did. I would lose, early on I was like, oh my God, you know, they didn’t do this, they didn’t do that. And it’s like, it’s okay. They’re, they’re sleeping fine. So I would never, you know, while I love to pour a lot into what I do, I’ve also learned to not burn myself out by pouring in more than the actual client is with their own dog.

And I know that can be hard for people because we see dogs with a lot of potential and they’re with clients that they’re just not really helping the dog reach that potential. But I also think it’s important to not be like, berate those people. I know a lot of trainers that do that, and they’ll just like, you know, you don’t deserve this dog.

And I don’t, I just, I never use language like that. I might tell them like, Hey, I really think it would be better for your dog if you could do this and do that. And here’s why. Because of breed issues, you know, genetics, things like that. They need this, they need that. I, I just found it. And that’s another thing.

Communication is another way that I’ve evolved where I’ve made it a. It’s so important to me to be able to really deliver what I’m trying to say. And I want people to know what I mean when I say it. And I think that clarity is something that I’ve really worked hard on having with my clients. It’s important, like here’s a good example.

If I say to somebody, Hey, make sure that you keep your dogs separated when they eat, so that way they don’t fight. I might follow up with that in saying not to say that you would allow that to happen. So I don’t want to make statements that make that seem accusatory. Right. I’m not accusing you of anything, but I want to cover all angles.

So I’m gonna give you an example of what I’m gonna make sure that you don’t do. Not to imply that you would do that. So that’s another thing for me. ’cause a lot of times, again, people, I’ve heard so many stories about clients that are just, they feel like. Trainers just speak down to them. Um, they feel like people treat trainers, treated them like they were stupid.

So the client interaction and relationship between me and the client is very important. And that’s just another way that I’ve evolved. My first, my second client, um, I had a really bad experience with them because I was so, I was like so direct. Like it’s one thing to be direct, but I was like kind of rude, you know?

I was like arguing with them about their dog. And I remember they ended up, they, we did four sessions. We were supposed to do more. They emailed me. They were like, we don’t wanna work you anymore. And internally I was like, good. I don’t really wanna work with you either. But I had to really stop and think about that for a second and go, okay, so every time somebody, you disagree with somebody, are you gonna argue with them?

And what does that look like for your career? So I’ve learned how to navigate through those difficult situations with the right language and the ability to make people, or excuse me, to prevent them from feeling defensive. And go, look, this is why I think you should do this without being like, you need to do this now, otherwise you’re a terrible dog owner.

I just don’t agree with that. I, I could have been that way, but that was part of my evolution. 

Yeah, you’ve gotta pick your battles for sure. And it’s something you learned through time without a doubt. And that’s part of the journey of being a dog trainer 

trainer. Yeah, definitely. I love it though. It’s such a great, it’s, it’s, I love doing it.

I love talking to people and I love, for me, when they asked me this at conference, they were like, what does balanced training mean to you? And it’s always meant to be able to find the balance between. The dog owner and the dog to me, they’re like, it’s like trying to compose music. You have to find the right level.

You need a little bit of bass, a little bit of treble a little bit of this, a little bit of that. And when I, each, to me, each combination of dog owner and dog is like it’s own symphony. And I’m trying to help find the balance so that it just works perfectly according to them and for the dog. And that’s where the balance comes.

Sometimes we need people to be a little bit more compromising here and a little bit more firm here. And sometimes they have those reversed. You know what I mean? And so to me that’s the beauty of balanced training is that we can apply certain, um, tools and methods where appropriate so that both the client feels that they’re making progress and so that the dog feels like they’re being treated fairly.

That’s a good definition of balanced training. You know, I struggled with that term for years and have never. Really loved it, but finally adopted it because it has, I mean, everyone uses it, right? Yeah. Clients now use it, other trainers do. Yep. And for years, people would say like, are you a balanced trainer?

And I’d say, no, you know, here’s what I am. And I’d give a description of what they considered a balanced trainer. And finally I’m like, you know what, I’m, I’m done. I’ll just, I’ll use the word, 

what was your description? 

So to me it’s a balance between correction as needed and positive reinforcement and large amounts of praise.

And it’s the idea that there’s actual balance, not middle, not, here’s compulsion. And here’s purely positive, and it’s exactly the middle. You’re correct. It’s a balance, like a scale, and it’s adjusting constantly based upon what the dog needs. 

Yeah. 

And so then explaining to client, it’s like, you know, right now he might need tons of positive reinforcement, and on this command he might never need punishment or corrections on this command.

But in that command, the come command outside, we’re gonna need a lot of positive reinforcement. And from his behavior and his body language, everything I’ve seen, we’re gonna need some sort of correction there. It’s striking that, that correct balance. 

Yeah, I agree. So 

I finally gave up, I’m like, if I’m just gonna explain what they think balance training is, and you know, and now I’m just being stubborn, so I, I adopted the word, yeah.

On my website, I have put, uh, rewards based balanced training because I like that here, here’s the reason why, because all of the, with the force free community, when they say science says, you know, X, Y, Z. Um, they always say reward based training right, is the most effective, which I agree with, right? But they go, aversive based training is bad for dogs, which at face value, I agree with that because if you’re ev, if everything in your training is based on punishment, then I don’t think that you’re gonna have a great relationship with your dog.

But that doesn’t mean that we can’t use punishment in the communication and with dog training. So rewards based means that, and I’m sure you would agree that majority of what we’re doing is based on positive reinforcement. I wanna highlight all the good things that my dog is doing and let them know this is exactly what I want from you, but I also wanna be clear and go, you can’t do that.

That’s not allowed, and definitely not that, right? Mm-hmm. So it is based in rewards. That’s kind of like my long-winded, you know, um, expression of like what I do, rewards based balance training. Um, and I think it’s fitting because again, that’s pretty much like when I tell people I want to be 80 to 90% positive reinforcement and 10 to 20, depending on the dog is gonna be punishment or versus as needed.

Yeah. Punishment has become such a dirty word. I know. And you know, but then, yeah. And I know you have these same conversations, but you explain to people, would there be any punishment with your child if they did X, Y, or Z? Yeah. And they’re like, of course there would be, you know, like it stands to reason. I mean, all living creatures need some sort of aversion or punishment to learn not to do.

If the thing feels good and they enjoy it more than the alternative, they’re probably gonna keep doing it unless there’s something that tells ’em not to. 

Yeah. I often even explain to people how, um, what the role is of a punisher to stop unwanted behavior. And while that’s pretty cut and dry, you know, it doesn’t always apply or work that way.

However, I give them the example like, Hey, have you ever like yelled at your dog to stop doing something? And they go, yeah. And I say, that’s a punishment. That’s the only difference is, is like it’s on a scale pun, a punisher can be like soft and kind of guiding, or it can be really extreme and you know, very harsh.

So it just depends on how you’re using it. So a lot of people punish their dogs all the time. The dogs just don’t care because this punishment is not strong enough, is not meaningful. 

Mm-hmm. Or even worse, they live their life in a state of punishment, basically. Right. The person’s always angry, dog’s always stressed out and yeah.

They’re, you know, they’re afraid of a tool, but they’re using anger all day. Yeah. Every day. Which is way worse than a tool. I’ve 

seen that too. Yeah. I’ve seen that. I’d say to them, look, I’d rather you have the dog on a prong collar and give them one meaningful correction, then freaking yell at ’em the whole time that you’re on a walk.

Mm-hmm. Or whatever that’s going on. So, yeah. Totally agree. 

So you mentioned you were doing a seminar, uh, over the last few days workshop. What was it on? Mm-hmm. Or a workshop. What was, was it on? Yeah, 

we, yeah, at least reactivity. So, I mean, here in Vegas after like the pandemic, we, so we used to do pack walks and, um, it was great.

Then the pandemic happened and nobody brought the dogs outside anymore. Nobody went outside. And so we started to see that we were getting all these reactive dogs in our pack walks, and it was becoming honestly like a liability. And my wife was really the one like leading the pack walks as I was doing training.

And she was just like, you know, it’s just really, it’s overwhelming and I don’t really know if I’m comfortable dealing with a lot of these dogs because of how reactive they are. Because if one dog starts reacting, then they all become reactive and then it just becomes this crazy thing. And luckily we never had any issues with any of the dogs and we wanted to keep it that way.

And I said to her, I was like, you know. Instead of, instead of pack walks, why don’t we do group classes and teach people how to walk their dogs and, and work with their reactive dogs? And that’s kind of where this idea came from. And so it’s, you know, evolved a little bit over time since we started doing it.

But the reactive workshop is, it’s a. Sort of intensive three day workshop where we meet, uh, in a public place and I address reactivity head on, much like I do most issues in, in dog training. Um, I don’t with within reason, meaning I’m not gonna put unnecessary pressure on a dog that shouldn’t be in a situation.

And I make sure I make that language very clear and people sign up for the class. Like, for example, a dog that is shutting down and, you know, trying to run away from the environment and seek shelter is not a dog that I would welcome into the class, or I don’t think they would be fitting for that class.

It’s more about dogs that are, even if they’re fear, fear-based, they are lunging out and they’re using aggression to create space. Or they’re so overly excited that they’re frustrated and now they’re like biting on a leash, redirecting, or they just completely lose their minds when they’re in a particular situation.

Um, that’s what the class is really, uh, focused on and just straight up aggressive dogs. So it’s, it’s a great class. I mean, um, we’ve been doing it for a few years now. And, um, really great success. People love it. And, uh, I enjoy doing it because it’s a really common issue, at least here in Las Vegas with leash reactivity.

So it’s a, it’s fun for me to do, 

man. It seems to be common everywhere in the United States, at least from what I’ve seen. 

Yeah. Especially in the States. I mean, I don’t know. Who I was speaking to recently, but I was saying how when my wife and I were in Europe, we were in Spain and I believe it was Valencia, we’re walking around and my wife pointed out, she’s like, there are so many dogs here off leash and for the male dogs, you can tell that they’re intact, you know?

And so she’s like, and they’re not neutered. And she’s like, and they’re just walking around and they walk past another dog and maybe they do a quick sniff and they just keep walking. She’s like, how? And I said, the lifestyle is different. The culture’s different. These people bring their dogs with them everywhere.

They walk from their home down the street to the coffee shop. You know, they sit down, they have a coffee at night. They have a beer, they’re hanging out with friends. The dog is there. The dog is used to being in these environments here in the States and in particular, Las Vegas. You know, the community structure isn’t the same.

Our, our city isn’t that walkable. Some of the neighborhoods are. Because the dogs are so isolated and then they’re exposed and the way that it happens, they become, they become reactive, lack of socialization. And again, I think the biggest issue is lifestyle. And so this is why I try to encourage my, my clients to get outside with their dogs, engage with their dogs, expose them to things.

So many people are afraid to do it, and I understand, you know, they’re, ’cause they don’t know how to handle it, so they avoid it. And I think that that just exacerbates the issue. 

Yeah. And it’s hard, right? If you avoid it till they get a little bit older. Like imagine a perfect world scenario, and I’m just making this up, but what if we all lived in little areas where there’s 30 houses around and half the people have dogs.

And when you get a dog, you let it go each day, right? And it goes around to the other 30 houses and it, there’s 15 dogs around. It gets to know them. Mm-hmm. There’s nowhere, there’s no, you know, huge roads for it to get run over by semis or whatever. You would never have issues with socializing, right? Yeah.

And you never have issues with control. But we can’t put puppies down most places, right. ’cause you, like you said, busy neighborhood, you can’t set it down. There’s cars, there’s whatever, you know, zipping by and then the dog gets a little bit older. And then now even if you get it to the appropriate place, well there’s no way you can just let it go.

’cause it’s old enough to run from you at that point. Yeah. And maybe it’s not social and I, I feel like people just miss that window. Right. They do of puppies are easy. I mean in the sense of they average puppy likes everybody and everything, but 

yeah. Agree, not, it 

becomes tough. 

That, and I would say too, some people overdo it with socialization by bringing their dog to a dog park, for example.

And now all their dog learns is that dogs, other dogs equals, um, play, play, play, right. Hyper excitement and nonstop excitement, nonstop play until the point of exhaustion. And I’ve, I’ve, um, coined the term, um. See a dog, smell a dog syndrome, and uh, I made it up so it’s not like an official, you know, uh, term, but it basically what it means is that the dog is so used to running up to any dog that they see and they can smell ’em right, and gets in and meet them at a dog park.

That now when the person walks their dog on the street and the dog is attached to a leash, what they’re experiencing, while they call it aggression, it’s really frustration. The dog is pissed because they can’t get to the other dog because they’re so used to having their way. It’s like having an entitled child who every time you bring ’em to the candy store, you let ’em run around and grab whatever they want and they can have as much as they want.

And then you’re walking down in another area and they’re not allowed there and you tell them no and they lose their mind. Same kind of concept. So I think with socialization you have either not enough or you have too much of it where the dog is just exposed so much that that’s what they expect every time they go outta the house.

It’s, it’s, they’re looking for dogs ’cause they’re ready to go. And the same thing with people. Every person that they saw, it was like, oh my God, the puppy. Oh my God. And then the next thing you know, every time they see people, they’re just getting all worked up. They’re barking, they’re lunging, and people are like, oh my God, I think they want to kill ’em.

But then when they meet ’em, they’re happy. And I go, yeah, that’s because they’re frustrated. And so it’s like, it’s a fine balance, man. And this is why I love what I do, because yeah, I love being able to explain that to people and they go, oh my gosh. So that’s why I’m like, yeah, and here’s how we fix it. And then leading them into that.

So it’s great. 

So let’s circle back to reactivity for a second, especially with what you just said about the over socialization and the dogs then become frustrated. So reactivity, I would assume you would agree, is a word that’s used all the time. Yeah. We actually just did a podcast episode last week for my company podcast, and I think it’s titled like, what the Hell Is Leash Reactivity?

And the point of the episode is, as a trainer, that really tells me nothing. When I hear a dog is leash reactive. Maybe he’s aggressive, maybe he wants to kill somebody, maybe he’s a German short air pointer that’s, you know, been over socialized and is just barking and he is frustrated. Maybe he’s fearful, who knows?

And then funny enough, I saw on YouTube today, Ivan Bala Banov just released a video basically saying, Hey, trainers quit using the word reactivity. Uh, which I love. I was like, that’s exactly, I, I I love that. Uh, I don’t think it’s gonna work. I like people word. I’m not gonna, sorry, 

Ivan, I’m still gonna use it.

I’m still gonna use it. It’s, it’s so 

ingrained, right? 

Yeah. But’s, it’s an umbrella term. 

It is, and to me, and I’m, I’m just teeing up, it’s a long-winded question for you, but it means so many things, right? So many things to so many different people. So to you, what does leash reactivity mean? If I were to say to you, I just saw a leash reactive dog today.

What does, what does that mean to you? 

So I would say, well, it’s an umbrella term. That could mean a lot of things. So. In general, when I, if you say to me my, I saw a leash reactive dog, I would imagine a dog, um, that is not under the owner’s physical control. Um, lashing out, lunging, barking, biting the leash, spinning around, jumping on top of the owner.

Um, and so in my mind, I know when I hear leash reactivity, I think to myself, okay, is it, is it forward aggression? Like the dog is actually trying to hurt somebody? Um, are they fearful in using, you know, reactivity or lunging, barking and aggressive behaviors to create space? Are they frustrated? Right. And so those would be, I would say, the main three points that come into my mind.

So I would want to ask more about, especially so when I conduct any evaluations, that’s what I’m trying to find out, what, where is this coming from and what’s actually happening. So I, I understand too, like in the dog training world, that word gets thrown around a lot. And I’ve had people that join my class and they’re like, oh, my dog’s reactive.

And, you know, I’m like, well, they’re not though. Like they just, they let out a couple of barks here and there, you know, and it’s really not, it’s not that bad at all. So, uh, with that said, yeah, it’s definitely an umbrella term. I think it just, it needs when, whenever it’s used, especially in a fact finding situation, we just need more information.

But then again, I would say, ’cause I saw a video of somebody recently. That was kind of like a debate I was seeing in the comments. It’s like aggression and reactivity and all this stuff, and they all kind of get convoluted. Um, and I think this is where just conversation needs to be had specifically with the owners.

Like what is the dog doing specifically, right? What are the actions? ’cause like I said, the reactivity is just kind of a blanket term that we use to describe out of control, potentially aggressive, you know, dog. But I, I like the word reactive because that’s kind of, that’s kind of what’s happening. They’re reacting to something.

Um, and that could look very different in depending on what’s happening. 

To me, the word, when I first started hearing it, it felt like a replacement for leash, aggressive. And so in my mind, when I first started hearing leash reactive dog, I thought, okay, this is just a, like a prettier, less mean sounding word for leash.

Aggressive. Yeah. And then I started, see, dogs would come to me with like, I don’t wanna say a diagnosis ’cause they hadn’t seen a behaviorist, but like they would come to me and say, my dog’s leash, or I’m sorry, leash reactive, can you help me? And I would take that as, okay, the dog’s aggressive. And then meet him.

And I’m like, this dog’s super nice. Like what are you talking about? He’s just, yeah, exactly. 

Like 

he’s just wild. He just needs to learn not to pull. And if we do that, the barking is gonna stop and you’re home free. Like this is gonna be easy. Yeah. And so that’s, I think that’s been my struggle with it, that in my brain I always saw it as something different than what it is.

You know, like you’re considering it an umbrella term for anything that’s basically excitable, unleash. Right. And that’s how think the majority of people use it. 

Yeah. And also like just it popped in my mind, like it could be a resource guarding issue with like, the dog is reactive to people that approach the owner and when they have the dog because the dog is resource guarding them.

So it’s like, to me, I don’t mind the word, I just know, so I have this vision like in my mind, where I see just an outta control dog, potentially aggressive. But this is where I think the, the, A conversation needs to be had, or at least an evaluation where you see the dog and you figure out what’s going on.

I don’t mind using the word reactive. Personally, I think it’s a, like I said, I look at it as an umbrella term because no different than, for example, look at the word a aggression, right? What, how many different forms of aggression are there in dog behavior? There’s many, I, I can think of at least five, right?

So we have all these different styles of aggression and in, in that sense, aggression can also be used as an umbrella term because yes, the dog is aggressive, but then we need to know why are they aggressive? Is it provoked? Is it unprovoked? Is it territorial? Is it resource guarding? Is it frustration? So like, what’s happening?

Is it redirected aggression? So it’s like, there’s a lot to be said when we’re talking about behaviors and labeling things. You know? Same thing with balanced. I think that’s kind of an umbrella term. 

It is, yeah. 

It’s like, so, yeah. I don’t mind the word though. 

You know, it’s, it’s not going away. I can’t imagine.

No, it’s, it’s not, it’s too ingrained in, in everybody. So, you know, I guess back to reactivity, and I’m thinking now maybe a month ago you had a video you posted and I commented on it. It was like, I wanna say it was like a pit or something staring at like a squirrel and you were showing the owners how to like break its reactivity.

So I commented on there something about how people need to be able to recognize body language and get them at what I would call like the targeting or loading phase. Mm-hmm. Long before they blow up and some douche bag in the comments like tried to like rip me apart and it was like. This is just pray drive you guys like you don’t know what you’re talking about.

I’m like, just ludicrous stuff. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

And I was like, I was, I mean that didn’t bother me. I don’t care. But I was like blown away that you think trying to address something at the loading or targeting phase is a bad thing. Like I couldn’t even wrap my head around what their beef was with my comment.

But this is a long-winded way of saying how much time do you spend on that kind of conversation with reactive dog owners or fear, you know, people who have a fearful dog. How much do time do you spend on body language and understanding what the animal’s showing them? 

Yeah, a lot actually. Because one of the things in this, the, the distinctions that I try to help people understand is that like, as an example, with a nervous, timid, or fearful dog, a lot of times because of the history of reactivity, they will, the owner will pull on the leash when the dog is actually expressing curiosity.

So they lean in to get an air sniff and then they’re getting corrected. So I, I explain to people, I’m like, look, this is what air sniffing looks like. And I explain to them, for example, the different postures that their dog will take versus like, curiosity versus like hyper fixation, right? Like super zoned in and, and fixated on something.

And then also in some situations, I don’t necessarily think that the hyper fixation or loading is, I don’t label it as like a bad thing. It’s just something to be aware of. Because for me, the way that I train. While we could agree that it’s not necessarily good for the dog to be loading up, I have seen with my own eyes, dogs that I work with that will begin to load up.

But because of the training that we’ve implemented, they’re able to actually have self-control and they have a thought process and they make a decision to actually turn around and look at the owner and engage with them, or to turn their head and just walk away. And that’s exactly what I’m looking for.

So when I’m training, I’m doing two a few things. One is I’m trying to prevent the dog from initially loading up and getting them, trying to get them to disengage with whatever they’re about to load up on and engage with the owner or myself. And then I want to actually allow them to go through that whole range of motion so that I can go, don’t do that.

Right. You need to be more mindful about how that loading up. And that this, that, um, decision to take that action yields a consequence now. And so I think that my approach when I’m working with my reactive, um, client or their dogs in my workshops is I really, I’m really big on giving the dog more freedom to make their own choices and understanding how their choices have consequences, good or bad, and the results of those and what those look like, and putting it on repeat.

I want to help the dog make the right decision, but I don’t want to be, um, micromanaging them. Right. Every single time. You, the dog needs to understand that you, you have to be in self-control and you have to be able to exercise that. And I think that’s huge when people start to understand that it helps them relax a lot more and be able to actually ob actually observe their dog and understand what’s happening in these moments as they unfold.

Because they’re very dynamic. It’s not just, oh look, he’s this and that’s all he is. No, he’s this, and then he is that, and he is this, and he is that, and behaviorally and what’s going on in their mind. And a lot of that can be shown through their body. So I, I spend a significant amount of time breaking that down for people.

Yeah, I think that’s key. And I mean, everything you said there about, you know, letting the dog target or load at some points in time, but you’re making a conscious decision, right, to allow that and you recognize it. Correct. And that to me is what’s so crucial for dog owners to be able to recognize it. And then you can decide is this a scenario where it’s appropriate to let this play out or is this not?

And that’s based obviously on too many variables to list right now. 

Absolutely. But I mean, it’s great when you start to, when like I’m working with people and I’m, we let that loading happen. ’cause I’m like, look, do you see the difference? You see the stiffness in their body ears forward. Maybe they start to lower their head or they pick their head up, right?

Depending on the dog. Um, and just like all these things. And so this is also an opportunity for them to be able to practice good timing if we are gonna allow the dogs to go through the full extent of their behavior, uh, I say, okay, let get ready to provide that correction if they choose to go into that state.

But I don’t, and this is goes into what I preach to my clients about not punishing dogs for looking at other dogs. I don’t agree with that. As an example though, to the contrary of that statement, if I have a dog that’s loading up and I’m asking them to turn away. They’re not doing it to me. I’ll give a correction for that.

I’m asking you to do something. I’m not, I’m not really a fan of punishing a dog while they’re fixated on another dog. I want to be able to give them direction. I think that that happens too much, even without the, um. I would say, I wanna say assistance, but without the recommendations or direction of a bad trainer.

A lot of people tend to just pop their dog’s collar regardless of what collar or setup they’re using. They’re just adding agitation ’cause their dog is fixated and all these feelings this mm-hmm. You know, as they’re fixated. And I’m like, we don’t want to do that. We want to teach ’em to turn and look away.

If they don’t look away and we’ve asked them to look away, now we can be clear about why we’re actually giving a correction. I’m not correcting you for looking necessarily, I’m correcting you for not turning away when I ask you to. And I think that that’s a very important distinction for the dog to understand so that they know that the correction isn’t happening because of other dogs.

It’s happening because of yourself. Either your lack of response or your act, the action that you’re taking. ’cause you’re actually trying to pursue that other dog or whatever it is. So, and, and that to me, like, man, I could talk about this stuff all day. ’cause it’s just, and I, I love it. 

I feel like that’s the age old lie about, you know, people, whatever you want to call it, aversive training, punishment training, whatever.

And they’ll say you tug on the leash and it’s gonna make the dog more aggressive ’cause he is staring at the other dog. And my thought is like, yeah, if you’re doing it like a moron, maybe exactly. But any good trainer of course is teaching the dog what he can do, not just what he can’t. So what I’m hearing you say would be I’m not just gonna tug and say no, no, no.

While he stares at a dog, I’m gonna tell him something he’s supposed to do and, and Exactly. He’s something he knows, right? Yep. Probably he’ll, I don’t know, maybe place, whatever, something. And if he does it, you’re gonna praise the hell out of him. Yeah. And if he doesn’t, you’re gonna correct. And then when he does, you’re gonna praise the hell out of him.

Yeah. And I think that’s, at least to me, the distinction a lot of people miss is they have this idea in their head of like, I’m just gonna correct him as he looks. That’s never gonna work unless you correct so hard. He is afraid to look. And obviously that’s not. 

Yeah, I agree. And a lot of times for me, when I do these reactive workshops, I am not focused on obedience pretty much at all.

And this is what I, to my point earlier about giving the dog more freedom, the way that I like to explain it is like this, the dog can be doing a thousand things that are fine, right? You can sniff the ground, you can look at the air, you can look at a bird, you can look at me, you can lay down whatever. You can do a thousand things.

But the one thing you can’t do is react. You can’t lunge, bark and try to go after something. And so I don’t, I, I fold obedience into the workshop, but the priority is teaching the dog the consequences of their actions. And how all we’re trying to do with the dog is have a good time. Right? Have fun. You can, I love it when you look at me.

If you do know some obedience, absolutely I’m gonna reward that. You can sit, you can down, blah, blah, blah. But I’ve also seen where. I work with clients and they’ve been with other trainers. And these trainers were like, you know, hyper-focused on obedience. And in my experience, that also creates another problem where if you focus on obedience with a reactive dog, you’re bringing them out into public.

They’re reactive. And because they’re reactive, they’re also going to be disobedient. So now they’re being punished for not sitting, not downing, not healing, not this, not that. And reactivity. So then from the dog’s perspective, they go out in public and they’re just getting pounded for all these things, right?

Well, what are they actually learning? And that’s my question. And this is why when I have a lot of people that have worked with other trainers come to my class, they’re just like, I’ve never. Had anybody explain it to me this way. And that’s again, like just something I love to be able to do is provide clarity.

Because it’s not to say that I’ll never correct a dog for not healing that was reactive or that is reactive. Sure. But I make sure that the dog has a complete understanding of why they were originally corrected for their reactivity. The fact that they’re not healing and they’re being corrected for that now is a part of the equation.

But early on, I don’t care about obedience. I don’t need obedience. I need the dog to understand how their behaviors have consequences, good or bad. And that’s the main important thing that I focus on early on in the workshop. 

And it’s three days you said? 

Yep. 

A lot to cover in three days. 

It is, yeah. It’s a lot.

But I also, um, have been doing like bonus zoom calls, so, you know, I, I encourage people to take video content so I can see them working with their dogs, uh, obviously without me there. And then we break it all down and the class learns together so we get to cover all the dogs and um, you know, address any questions or issues.

But a lot of people are, they do really well and I love it. Just, it’s, it’s really cool to see and to be able to be, uh, somebody who leads that and leads people into this understanding and the success that they see with their dogs. 

Yeah, and I mean, that topic is so all encompassing. ’cause if you can’t walk your dog without it being fun, I mean, unless you live in the country in a massive property, life is gonna suck for you.

It and the dog. It does. I can’t imagine 

that. And like, man, so many people have, um, just, you know, expressed to me and confided in me like how. Upset. They are their neighbors see them come in and pull away. Um, they’re embarrassed. They can’t bring their dog anywhere. Sometimes they can’t have, you know, in some cases with reactivity in the house, they can’t even have fi friends or family over.

So it’s a lot for people and I try to be really understanding of that, you know, and, and I think that’s just another component for me. It’s what I do is just like being, um, empathetic to people and going, Hey, look, I totally understand where you’re coming from. I cannot only imagine what it feels like to walk your dog down the street and have everybody in your neighborhood avoid you because of the behavior that your dog has.

So. And that’s like, and I get it. So, and that’s the other thing is just coaching people through that kind of stuff. You know what I mean? Like, ’cause it’s more mm-hmm. I’m sure you realize, man, like for a lot of people, their dog is, is their life. It’s, or if it’s not their whole life, it’s a big part of their life.

And so it can be really upsetting and very disruptive to your, your family lifestyle and all that when you have a dog that is outta control, reactive, aggressive, or any of those things. 

Esp. Esp, yeah. And especially living in town, right? Where Yeah. You can’t hide from it. It’s front, front and center all day every day.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s a lot for people. 

Alright, why don’t we pivot a little bit. So you’d mentioned the IECP conference. People loved seeing you there, and it sounds like you had a, a good time. Uh, I mean, let’s just talk IECP. So tell me why are you an IECP member? What do you, what do you like about the group?

So. Before I answer that, I just wanna say, kind of preface and say I was a member back in like 2019. Uh, I was a member for about two years and then my membership expired, and I just never really felt the need to reinstate the membership. Um, that changed because af, so I met Heather Beck, uh, last year at another conference that her and I both spoke at.

And she was saying to me, she’s like, listen. ’cause I was like, man, this is so much fun. Like, I have never, apart from being in, in, in school when I went to StarMark, um, I hadn’t been in a room with so many dog trainers since then. It was just, I kind of did my own thing, kept my head down and just did, did my own thing.

So being at the conference where I met Heather was great. Then she’s like, listen, if you, if you like this conference, she’s like, you have to come to the IACP. And I was just like, okay, cool. And then, uh, I was planning on going and then I was like, ah, I don’t know if I’m gonna go. And I saw her again in April and she’s like, you better go to the conference.

She’s like, you need to go to the conference. She’s. Please just go. And she’s like, trust me. So I’m like, all right, fine. I’ll go. So I go. 

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I’ll be honest, man, it was like, it was, it was such an incredible experience. Um, I think one of the biggest things for me was just seeing like the comradery between trainers, everybody sharing ideas, even though those ideas may not perfectly align. Everyone’s getting along and there’s like no judgment. Um, seeing all the dogs there at the conference, you know, like it’s a dog training conference and to see dogs there just made it that much more enjoyable and, and real too, you know, ’cause you’ve got real dog trainers that are actually there with their dogs and it was just like, well-behaved dogs left and right.

Everybody’s, it just, it was such a great thing. And then the other thing for me was when after the conference, I went to the board meeting that, that you guys had and sat in, in the general meeting. And I really enjoyed hearing the, the vision and the mission. For the IACP and like what, what they stand for.

And I was just like, you know what? I think I want to become a member again, because I want to be a part of a community that, uh, has similar visions that I have, which is like educating people, um, keeping the balanced training or the, at least the use of training tools in the dog training world and not demonizing them and, um, defending them and their ethical use of them and the proper use of them.

And even though that might kind of, you know, that might ch people’s opinions of that might be a little bit different throughout the members, um, I just, again, I think as we all have the same idea and that we want to be able to train dogs, um, help people and use training tools that are effective and fair to the dog.

And that really resonated with me. So I think the community and the vision of the IACP were the two main things that really pushed me to become a member again. 

That’s awesome. I, it’s very similar things for me that attract me to the IACP and of course you rejoined came to conference and now you’re our newest board member.

I know. It’s crazy. People, 

people listening may or may not know that. It depends on if they spend any time on the IACP Facebook page, but yeah. Uh, you know, everyone is very excited. You know, when we did the interview and it was very much everyone in favor of you being on the board and excited to have you as part of the team.

I was really excited about that. Um, I’m, I’m especially excited because, you know, as the director of education, I mean, when I started my business, my like motto was to educate, empower, and encourage people to be better dog owners for their dogs. And I think that that just flows perfectly into my role as director of education to help encourage, empower, and educate dog trainers to be better dog trainers for their clients and their, and their clients’ dogs.

So it really goes right in hand with what I love to do, which is educate people. So, um, I know that it’s more than a title and, uh, there’s a lot of work to be done and I’m excited to be a part of that journey and really to hold such a great position and to be, um, a leader for the IACP and just be on the team with everybody on the board, man, it’s like, it’s a really a, a privilege and an honor.

I think you’re gonna be amazing running education. And it to me kind of goes back to what you just said about what you like about the IECP and what you liked about conference is there’s a lot of trainers that not everybody agrees. I mean, how sick would it be if we all agreed on everything? Like, and I don’t mean sick as in cool, I mean like as in that’s unhealthy.

If we all agreed that’s a big problem. Like in life in general. No one sh like if everyone agrees in anything, that’s pretty bizarre, right? And yeah. Whether you say we don’t need an coach chamber or, yeah. I mean it And it changes and evolves. Like look at how you train now versus years ago it’s different.

Same with me. Yep. Same for any good trainer. And what I like about the IECP is we have a, like you meet trainers there who say, I don’t use prong collars ever. This is not my thing. You know, and then you use others who use prongs a lot and some use ecos a lot, some don’t use them. But being able to learn like, well how do you do it with that?

You know, that thing around the nose, tell me more. Right? Yeah. Or how do you do it with whatever? And that’s how we get better, right. Is is by learning from each other. 

I completely agree. And it’s funny ’cause when I talked to other trainers, um, and they asked me, like, for example, uh, what books do you recommend?

All, pretty much all the books I have are force free books written by force free trainers. And they’re always surprised to hear that. And, and they’re like, why? And I say, because I think it’s important to understand. So you have this group of people that are so adamant about saying that, Hey, dogs don’t need any punishment.

So I would like to know, what do you do then? If you don’t use any aversive tools, what do you do? And it’s important for me to be educated on both sides. So the, and the way that that’s valuable for me is when I have a client that is hesitant or reluctant or just outright denies the use or refuses to use a an aversive tool, I have other options.

I really want to help people. So I’m willing to say, okay, look, even though it kind of, it is driving me crazy ’cause I know your dog needs a correction or they need a prong or something like that, I can still work with you and I can still show you some things that we can try that may not get you to your exact goal, but we can get you close.

Right? Maybe with some extra management. And then the other thing is that a lot of times when I present people with that, or we start working in that realm, they go. Can we try that prong collar? And I go, absolutely. Mm-hmm. And now we’re just gonna fold the prong collar use into everything that we’ve done.

’cause a lot of that stuff still applies, but now we have a, a more clear way of communicating with your dog not to do that behavior. And so it just allows me to be truly balanced. So I love, and again, I agree with you like we shouldn’t be in this echo chamber of like everybody disagreeing. It’s important to have ideas and express ideas and not agree on everything.

Because I think that that’s where truly, that’s where we can truly learn from one another. If we’re all just yes men and we’re all just agreeing, then no one’s ever gonna be able, no one’s ever gonna progress. No one’s ever gonna get better. Mm-hmm. So I think it’s important to be able to challenge each other’s ideas.

And I even tell my clients that even in the workshops and even other trainers that have reached out to me to shadow me, I’m very clear about, listen, if you. If you’ve heard something different and that goes and, and what I’m saying speaks against that, let me know. Let me know because I wanna know that you, I wanna know about that and I want to be able to at least hear your side and go, you know what?

There is some truth to that. Or I’ll be able to explain to you why what you’ve heard may be true but doesn’t apply to your dog. So I encourage people that, and I always tell them, listen, I’m not so great and so grand as a trainer that you can’t question what I’m doing. I try to make a point to explain the why and the how very clearly, especially the why.

But I’m certainly not opposed to somebody saying, Hey, you said this earlier and now you said that and it seems like they contradict why is that? And I can explain to you very clearly why in one situation we’d apply it this way and another situation we would apply it that way. So yeah, I just, um, I think it’s super important to be able to be open to all, all, all the conversations about dog training.

Yeah, and we’re, at least in my opinion, the only group that actually is open. And I, I know we got some pushback from, uh, Michael CIO speaking this year. Yeah, some people were unhappy now, no one at conference. Everyone who watched him loved it and seemed really happy. But some people have pushed back and said, Hey, he’s purely positive he shouldn’t be there.

And my thought is. And some of their pushback is he doesn’t have videos showing enough success with aggressive dogs. So his methods probably don’t work. My thought is, it’s crazy. He has a big following. People seem to really like him. You hear him speak, he’s very well spoken. Hear the guy out. And if you hear some stuff and you think, you know what, I should be trying some of that.

And if you try it and it doesn’t work, then you throw it away and you don’t use it. 

Yeah. 

But if you watch someone, you should be able to learn something from them. And you know, Michael, to his credit, he came and he was at conference the entire time, right? Yeah. And he listened to literally every single speaker.

He didn’t come in try to like, you know, I don’t know, convince people of his message and then disappear. He was there for like five days. Yeah. And listened to literally everything. And to me, I think we’re the only group. That would bring somebody in that is, you know, stated a fairly, you know, has opposition to mm-hmm.

A 

lot that we believe in, but we’re open enough to say, Hey, we can learn something from this guy, even if we don’t agree a 90%, there’s gonna be a 10% or 15, whatever that we can learn from. 

I agree. And I, again, I think it’s important to have people like that in, in the members and, you know, as speakers because it’s just, you know, look, we gotta have these conversations.

’cause again, I think that from my perspective, I’ve worked with a lot of dogs and there have been dogs that I did not really apply any type of punishment or aversive techniques or training to, they just didn’t need it. They needed a much softer approach. They needed time and patience and a lot of positive reinforcement.

So I don’t think that. And I know for me too, like when I make content, ’cause to be honest, like I have a lot, and we spoke about this earlier, like I have content, you know, kind of making fun of like the force free. And, um, and I’ll say this now and I’ll probably repeat it in the future. I don’t have a problem with force free trainers as a whole.

I have a problem with the ones that are so outspoken and speak so ignorantly about balanced training. And the ones that know, they know that there is a place for punishment and aversive training, but yet they speak lies and act like they, that there is no place. Those are the ones I have a problem with because I have had several force free trainers in the Las Vegas area that have sent me clients because they, they know that punishment does have a role in training, but they’re just not.

They don’t want to be the ones to do it. And I respect that. If you’re a trainer and you’re like, I just don’t want to have to put a prong on a dog, but go to that guy because he knows how to use them and he’s willing to use them. I respect that. Right. And I have, and I would say that I even respect force free, you know, trainers that don’t know yet, that they’re just kind of been bombarded with the information that’s out there.

And so they truly believe that punishment doesn’t play a role, but they just don’t know yet. It’s the trainer. And those, I would say, you know, like educate yourself, but the ones that know but yet continue to scream from the rooftops, those are the ones that if I make a video, you know, ragging on forestry trainers, it’s them.

Those are the ones, and those are the ones that I’ll say very clearly I have zero respect for. And, um, yeah, and I would, I, I would even love to have debates with them because I feel like they’re full of crap and I would love to call them out on it. 

The ones you’re thinking of. I’m assuming some of them of course.

I mean they make their living by the controversy. Right. Of course. They don’t make their living by, by training dogs. They make their living on the controversy. 

Absolutely. Yeah. 

And that’s what they do. You know, target someone like yourself, create, you know, get people agitated, mobilize their base and count the checks as the views come in.

Yeah. 

Yeah. I guess. Yeah, pretty much. And, and I also, I think that, and also to be honest, I think, um. Just kind of like seeing some of the, some of the ones that I’ve seen in over the years. I think there’s a lot of like self-righteousness that comes from that. Like this virtue signaling, like, I don’t use those tools, I’m better than, it’s like, no, you’re full of crap because you know that they would work, but you just find it much more, um, self-rewarding to announce yourself as a force free advocate and that you would never do this or never do that.

Therefore, you are better than those who do use those things. And that’s another thing that I see a lot of self-righteous talk and behavior. And you know, I think that if you’re like for, I, I mean, I look at myself and sometimes I put out content and I’m like, I know that it looks bad. I know. And, and, and tr and I tell people this all the time.

Look, if I could train dogs with just food and loves and, and love and belly rubs, that’d be great. I a lot of, a lot in a lot of cases, like I have a dog that I’m working with now and it’s like, man, he’ll, he’ll work for food. But if I don’t have food, he’s like, I don’t want to do it. And I’m like, dude, you have to do it.

I need you. If I call you back to me, I need you to come back to me. Right. I don’t, I can’t have food in my hand all the time. And I need you to understand that. And I was just having a conversation with my mother earlier and I was like, you know, I, I hate the fact that I have to put pressure on this dog ’cause I know he knows it.

He doesn’t want to do it when he just gets in this, like, I don’t wanna do it. And he just, like, he will walk, I’ll call him and he’ll just turn around and walk away. But if he knows I have food on me, he’ll come to me. And so, and this is a, for me, where I like to tell people, like, listen, I don’t enjoy having to use a, an aversive approach with a dog.

I would much rather just be able to be all sunshine and rainbows and butterfly. But that’s just not reality. I can’t expect my clients to have a treat bag on them all the time in order to get their dog to listen to them. That’s just not, it’s not fair to the owner. And I don’t think it’s appropriate for the dog because we can’t always have something available to them as a reward in a realistic situation or just in life.

So, and I think that’s important for people to recognize. 

Well, I mean, life is full of punishment, right? And Dr. Uh, Melanie Uta talks about this a lot. Great nature’s full of punishment. Like, I mean, na, I mean so much of nature is punishment, right? Yeah. An animal does something and they get injured or hurt by whatever, and think about the punishment the world could inflict on your dog to teach him not to do something.

He could learn not to run off by getting hit by a car. 

Yeah. 

That’s, do you want that? Obviously not. Yeah. Right. Or he could learn not to run up to new dogs by getting bit in the face. 

Yep. That’s 

punishment. Right. And it’s gonna make him less likely to run up to new dogs. But I can think of a lot better ways we could teach him not to run up to new dogs than letting that happen.

I completely agree. And I, and that’s something that I try to frame for my clients, like you are, and, and again, like, you know, the exam, and I’ll, ’cause I’ll say this to people like this may be an extreme example, right? Your dog runs, we need a recall, and then they run away till they end up getting hit by a car.

Hopefully that never happens. But, and obviously that is a bit of extreme example, but to me that that’s is all training is preparation, essentially, right? We’re trying to prepare the dog to be in real world environments and teach them how to respond in those environments. That’s what we are doing. We’re preparing them.

And so in order to be prepared, that’s, these are the measures that we have to take, right? That’s what training entails. So we, we, you know, and I, again, it’s, I, I’ve been blessed and I’m very lucky. I have great clients that I work with over the years and so a lot of people I think are trusting of me enough to listen to me.

And I’ve had several clients, or matter of fact in my workshop I had one, she’s an amazing woman. Um, I worked with her years ago. She, a lot of the stuff that she does with her dog is in the realm of like force free training. So I remember the first time I met up with her, we did a private lesson and I was like, I think, I think she would benefit from like a prong or eco.

And she was like, Ooh, can we wait on that? And I was like, yeah, we’ll wait. No problem. I was like, listen, I just wanna let you know. But I, I really think she could, she came to the workshop and first day I said to her the same thing. And she’s like, ah. She’s like, okay. She goes, I’m not saying no. And I said, okay, I’m just letting you know whenever you’re ready.

Second day I said to her, I was like, listen again, I want to offer the opportunity to let me show you how we’ll use it. And on the third day she finally said, okay. And, uh, we put the prong collar on her dog. And at the end of the class she was like. I’m so mad that I didn’t do this on the first day. And I said, listen, I don’t want to tell you I told you so.

’cause I don’t care about that. I said, but either way, I’m glad and I’m grateful that you allowed me the opportunity to show you and that you trusted me enough to show you. And it means a lot to me. You know? So, um, you know, I rather than harp on the fact that the dog could have had the prong collar on for three days now, you know, and now if you need any help from me moving forward, we can, we can work within, uh, the right scope for the dog.

So, 

yeah. And I’m assuming you’ve probably learned through time that if you’d pushed that lady hard on day one, she would’ve said no. Right? And then she would never try that tool and then her dog would never get the life it deserves. And I, yeah, I feel like that’s, that’s part of like what we talked about earlier, growing up as a trainer and maturing.

And, you know, kind of going back to what I said earlier, just about being fair, um, in the same workshop that I just finished last this weekend, I had another client. And her story was this. She had a, uh, Husky shepherd mix, like Malamute Shepherd mix, and she worked with a, her first trainer, um, prong collar strong corrections, ended up creating redirected aggression.

So the dog ended up biting the owner because of these strong prong collar corrections. So then the trainer says, okay, well you know what, I think your dog needs an eco. And she was like, I’m outta here. We’re not, we’re not trying other things, right? So she was completely turned off and rightfully so. So then she hires a force free trainer, and the recommendation of that trainer was basically to avoid triggers and other dogs.

So she comes to my workshop and, um, I said to her, I was like, I think I said, I know your previous experience with this trainer. It was like very negative, uh, the first one. And they had recommended eco and that’s when you were done. I said. I do think your dog needs an eco. If you would allow me to show you how I’ll use it, you can make an informed decision.

And that’s the biggest thing. I want people to be able to make an informed decision where you need to see how it’s gonna be applied. You need to see the response of your dog, and you need to ask yourself, are you able to do those things? Are you able to follow through on that? And how do you feel about that?

And maybe you don’t really enjoy it, but you can see how it’s actually creating a better life for your dog, right? ’cause now you can get out more and enjoy things with them. And then so she was open to it. We put the ecar on the dog and she was blown away. She’s like. That’s, she’s like, I can’t believe how well he’s responding.

I’m like, I know. And then we were doing walking exercises by the third day and I said, I think he needs a prong collar. And I said, and I know you’ve had a bad experience. I said, but please let me show you how to properly use a prong collar. We put the collar on the dog. We started walking him. It was beautiful.

Dog’s, not stressed, dog’s not overreacting, no redirected aggression. And she was amazed. And like that is to me, like to your question earlier, what do I love? It’s that it’s to be able to lead people to this understanding and, and take them from a, where they’re afraid of a tool, even if it’s been misused by other trainers and show them this is how you properly use it and this is how you can have a fair, balanced relationship with your dog and communicate with them fairly and in, in proportion to what they need.

And it’s just like, man, I could talk about this stuff all day. ’cause I really do enjoy like just helping people and educating them. It brings me a lot, a lot of joy. 

Well, there’s no shortage of potential clients out there, so you’ll have. You’ll have work for decades to come. 

Yeah. Thank God. So on, 

on that note, Antonio, anything new coming up that you’re working on?

Anything you want people to be aware of? 

Yeah, I have a puppy, um, online course that, you know, it, it’s been, uh, it’s like months in the making. Um, but we’re getting that going. Um, I’m going to be doing two something new as like pack walks, but a di a little bit different than what we were doing in the past.

So in the past, my, you know, we would go and drive and pick up dogs and go walk ’em, but this is gonna be like client, uh, client-focused pack walks. So all of the clients that have been in our board and train program and clients in our reactive workshops. We’re gonna be doing, probably be limited to a certain amount of people.

We haven’t put a number on that yet, but we’re gonna just maybe like once a month. Um, just kind of like getting together and talking dogs and walking the dogs together and just helping people to be more consistent with getting their dogs out and exposing them and working with them. So I think it’ll help keep people in the training mindset because if they have something to look forward to and they want to come to the walk, they’re likely gonna wanna make sure that their dog is well behaved and they don’t wanna be, and you know, not to say that they’re their dog wasn’t that they’re not welcome.

Yeah. But, um, but, you know, a little incentive for them to keep things going. So we’re gonna be doing that, especially now with the weather cooling down and, um, just trying to line up some more workshops and get more online courses going. It’s been something that for me to be honest with everybody watching, I have, uh, a lot of ideas for online courses.

My biggest issue is. Taking all the ideas and organizing it into a program. So, ’cause I have a lot of content that I wanna share with, with everybody for like reactive dogs, loose leash, walking, things like that. So be on the lookout for more online courses coming out. ’cause it’s been really beneficial for me.

Able, even the one that I have now, um, has been very helpful for a lot of people in the past couple years that I’ve had it. So definitely plan on making more of those and hopefully one day soon, uh, a school. So I have, I’ve been mentoring a couple trainers and so I’m gonna be doing a lot of more mentorship programs uh, up in the upcoming year.

So look, really looking forward to that. 

That’s awesome. Well good luck in all of those endeavors. Thank you man. I 

appreciate 

you. Alright, thanks for tuning in everybody.