Welcome to Dog Pro Radio. Radio. In a claim situation, you wanna be sure you have the right coverage Business. Insurers of the Carolinas is the preferred IACP insurance provider for your pet training, boarding, and daycare business. Providing coverage in all 50 states. Business insurers of the Carolinas offers the most affordable general liability rates to IAP members.

For more information, visit www.dogtrainerins.com or speak with one of our agents at 809 6 2 4 6 1 1. Welcome to Dog Pro Radio. We have a special guest with us today, Nelson Hodges, a world renowned dog trainer and the founder of the Canine Human Relationship Institute. Nelson’s unique approach focuses on understanding the canine mind and creating harmony between dogs and their owners.

Nelson also has a long history with the IACP and has been instrumental in the growth of the organization over the years, which we all very much appreciate. In today’s episode, we’re gonna learn a little bit about Nelson’s journey in the dog training world. We’re gonna talk about what he’s currently up to.

We’ll explore his training philosophies, and hopefully discuss how building a bond with your dog can change your life for the better. So without any further ado, welcome to the show, Nelson. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Looking forward to this. Yeah, we’re excited. Jason and I have been counting down the days like we always do.

This is fun. Yeah, definitely, definitely glad to have you on. Well, appreciate it guys. Seriously. Yeah. Yeah. My time with IACP on the, on the board, uh, um, few know this, but, uh, I was asked two different times by Martin to be the president and I declined both times ’cause I just did not have the time for that role.

And, uh, smart man, smart, I knew what it would take and I just, I had to decline. So, uh, I appreciated Martin for that. But, uh, you know, I, I, I opted at the last to just be the vice president, so, so anyway, I’ve enjoyed my time with IACP. I believe I joined it somewhere back in 2007 to 2009, so I wasn’t one of the original people.

Um. Uh, some, some trainers and some of the other people that I, that I knew at the time, um, for years had kept saying, you need to join this. I go, yeah, well, okay. And so I finally, I finally did, and of course, Martin was the one that was, that was responding to everything. And, you know, immediately we were best buddies, just like Martin always was.

And, uh, you know, I, I got a, got a call from him a couple of months later, um, when, uh, someone had apparently contacted him at home office there. And, um, it was, uh, a lady, um, who had a rescue up in Iowa that, um, had two Siberian Huskies that she had gotten from a puppy mill that had been shut down in northern Missouri.

300 dogs, 298 of ’em were put down these two. She said, oh, I can save these. And they were completely feral, terrified beyond terror two, the worst I’ve ever seen. And uh, so soon as Martin heard Siberian Huskies, he said, just call Nelson. So, so since, you know, I was known for years as the Husky guy worldwide.

We have a, uh, we had a group back in the old days, um, of email lists called the cyber net, S-I-B-E-R. And uh, it’s still active and it’s now on Facebook too, but I’ve known some of those people in the Siberian world worldwide for 35 years from that. So, anyway, just a little interesting story. So have you always had huskies?

I know I talked to you many, uh, God while back. And you, you were still working with Huskies then, so Yeah, it’s um. Well, I, I’m one of the few that actually like Huskies to work with and, uh, and understand them, um, from their standpoint. You know, they are the oldest continuous dog breed on Earth. They go back about 30,000 years that we can figure out.

So they’re literally between them and the Tibetan Mastiff, uh, progenitor, they came from the same base source of, we’ll call it Proto Dog, but, um, I. And that came from the lake by call area in Siberia where bones were identified as 31 and a half thousand years old, bigger than a husky, smaller than a Tibetan mastiff.

Some of its progeny went south, some went north, and, uh, matched up with the remnants of the Tamir wolf, which ceased to exist somewhere around that time and that mixture. Matter of fact, Huskies and Greenland sledge dogs are the only two breeds on earth. If you look at his green Greenland sledge dog, it’s a Husky.

And Greenland is what it is removed by a few thousand years. And, um, both of them, they’re the only dog on earth that has a different wolf genetics in them, which is why they behave and act differently and think differently. Um, ’cause their genetics are different than all other, what we would call domestic, modern or even ancient breed dogs.

So, so I’ve, yeah. I’ve had them for, I don’t know, four decades I guess, and worked with probably 4,000 over the years, uh, between them, malamutes, wolves, wolf dogs, akitas, the, those types. So yeah. Yeah, that’s pretty much the, uh, short list of some of the most difficult ones to work with. Yeah. Yeah. Throw in a few of Charas and some others, and that’s my life.

What, what, so what a, what attracts you to those, um, breeds that are typically considered very difficult to work with? Um, you have to understand them from their standpoint, not from yours. It isn’t about humans, so. Once you, once you understand how they communicate, which is actually slightly different than most domestic dogs, how they think, you know, every, every client I ever had, you know, you will see and hear, you know, Huskies running away, right?

All the time. All the time. All the time. Yeah. They’re not running away. They’re going to see their 10,000 square mile territory. Got 30,000 years of genetics in that brain and 70, 80 years to be a quote unquote pet. So what do you think wins out? You know, there’s no, there’s no streets or roads in Siberia, so they don’t understand a car coming out.

They’ll, they get killed all the time when they get out, you know, on the streets. ’cause they don’t have that. They don’t have that mental background of being with humans for thousands of years at our will. They are, they are that are used by the chuk chi people and their predecessors, um, in a different way as survival.

And that’s what it’s all about. When you understand how they see survival, it’s pretty easy to communicate well with them. And I’m not talking about animal communication, I’m talking about understanding what their signals are, how they behave, et cetera, and, and, uh, much easier to then, uh, be able to work with them and, and get cooperation and understanding.

So. So I’m guessing they don’t have a lot of apartments in Siberia either. No. No. And, uh, and usually they’re, you know, they’re, they’re on the outside sometimes, you know, in, in winter months, which is, you know, 10 months outta the year in Siberia. Um, you know, they were the ones that allowed the children to sleep with them for warmth inside the tents and stuff.

Uh, those are the ones that survived. So that’s how you got the human bond was. And they, the others, they were. Uh, they were thrown out and you die on your own out there. So, you know, and, and the two or three months that, that they would go south into, uh, areas, boreal forests and, and tundra areas, they’d just release the dogs and they would go hunt like a pack of wolves for months and then come back when it started getting cold.

And the ones that came back, well, that’s what became the Huskies over 10, 20, 30,000 years. So it was that human cooperation when humans, uh, finally passed over. What, what is now the, you know, the caucus and Euro Mountains into that massive mammoth step in, uh, from Spain that goes all the way over to the Yukon.

Um, that was 45,000 years ago. That’s when we bumped into what we would call proto dogs. That’s the first time we bumped into ’em. And so. Having, having understood that we were hunter gatherers and we hunted the same animals that they did, uh, over a few thousand years. You study each other and you learn that there are advantages that, you know, they can, they can hear, smell, and, uh, run down things much further away than we can.

They can also alert to stuff that we’re unaware of, but they have a advantage and benefit to. You know, when we use our brains and, and, uh, you know, our, our weapons, uh, to be able to not get killed by our prey, then they could just stand back and wait for us to do the job and not get stomped on and killed and all that themselves.

That’s really how we matched up with what became dogs. Uh, that’s the real story. And, uh, so that that cooperation, that relationship started out of, uh, better survival. And when you go back to every, you know, I used to get, probably before I started the institute, I’d get an average of 200 phone calls a year from people, trainers all, all over the world with problems about their dogs.

Uh, some famous people that I will never mention because I’m, I do that for their privacy, um, that had problems with their dogs or client dogs or stuff, and would call me and talk to me about it. And it always comes back to how that particular dog sees its survival in that environment and situation. So the answers are already always there if you look at it, if you trace it back, I’ll put it that way.

So, so I’d love to talk specific, you’ve mentioned a few times that huskies just think differently than other breeds. And you mentioned the, the running off. What else can you get? Walk us through some more examples. Yeah. They’ll basically do this to you if you’re irrelevant. So you have to learn how to become relevant to them, which also helps all with all other breeds.

And, you know, people, the problem with humans is we think we’re a superior being. We look at the universe as if we’re a third party disinterested, just observing everything in the universe and that we’re some e femural thing that exists beyond everybody else and everything else. Uh, instead of being an animal ourselves, um, and treating another animal like that with high intelligence.

I mean, these are living sentient beings and, um. When it, it’s just like, it’s just like humans going to another country and culture with a different language. You know, you don’t speak louder and, and you don’t speak louder and slower so that they understand English, you know, so you, you adapt to more of the way, uh, they see the universe and you do become relevant.

What does a dog wanna do? Well, since the brain is structured for, uh, scent, literally their, their, their dominance is nose. And Subdominant mouth. And that’s the way their brain is actually structured. That’s how they learn. Mouth, nose, we are eye dominant, hand subdominant, we see the universe. That’s how we recognize things, everything.

That’s how we try to identify reality. And then we try to manipulate with our hands. They are nose, they smell everything. That’s the way they think. And then use the mouth to manipulate. So when you, when you look at it from their side of things, the way they encounter the environment, which includes you, is what does it smell like?

And you know, they can smell the dust coming in from the Sahara and Africa because they’re capable of it. You know, they’ve got. Oh, anywhere from, you know, uh, a, uh, brachycephalic dog at 220 million cent receptors to, uh, a blood hand at 320 million cent receptors to our five or 6 million, and plus their olf factory bulb is 60 times the volume of ours and volumetrically.

That means that you’ve got, you know, neurons that can connect with 60 times, 59 times, 58 times, all of those additional extrapolations, massive amount of brain power. As a matter of fact, up to a quarter of a dog’s brain is about scent. We don’t even use a quarter of our brain. Some, some people even less, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. Mostly politicians, but nevermind. So. When you, when you stop looking at it like an idiot, human primate, like we always do everything, and you start looking at it from their standpoint, it becomes very evident as to what, what they see in the environment and even our language, what they see, what they smell, what they sense in the environment that we take for granted.

Why? Because we built the entire environment for us, for our safety and our convenience. So we live in a human dominated world. When you’re out in Siberia or in the mountains and you know, nature up in, you know, northwest somewhere, uh, and there’s nobody around for a hundred miles, well, it’s a different, it’s a different environment.

You have to survive differently, but that’s the state of mind of most of these ancient breed dogs. Whereas, whereas German Shepherd, you know. That’s, it was created by us, for us, for our purposes. And so it accepts those things. Make sense? Yeah. So my follow up to that is, um, do you think that modern breeders of the husky and some of those ancient breeds are, uh, making, uh, lasting differences in the way those dogs perceive the world?

Yes, and not in a good way. Uh, I know some of the best Siberian husky breeders in the world from Norway to Alaska, and they are excellent at trying to preserve and better the breed. But, and, and here’s the controversial thing, if you’re looking for something controversial, our, our, I understand the problem.

But spay and neuter is getting rid of all good genetics too. I’m not saying you don’t spay and neuter. I’m just saying that’s not the answer. ’cause we’re screwing up dogs. We’re getting worse. Dogs, guys. I’ve watched it over 65, 70 years now. So could you expand on that a little bit for people that haven’t heard that argument before?

Give a little detail on what you mean by that. Well, I understand that the, the, the whole concept of, uh, spay and neuter is to prevent unwanted births, right? More dogs that I have to put down. That’s not the problem. It’s the demand. Supply and demand. So, you know, demand creates the supply. And when you are spaying and neutering and taking out, uh, good genetics, what are, what are you left with?

You have the few breeders that may breed once a year or once every other year that are really, truly good breeders. You’re not, you’re not getting a huge volume of dogs from those people. What you’re getting then is you’re getting the puppy mills and you’re getting all of the backyard breeders and they don’t care about genetics health, much of anything, frankly, other than making a buck.

So what we’re doing is because of how we’re going about it, rather than educate the general public about dogs, rather than you deserve a dog. ’cause you want one, and don’t not have to know anything about it because it’s well legally property. Um. You can do anything you want. So the demand, we went from, you know, 59 million dogs in the United States, uh, a few decades ago to, to over a hundred million now.

And therein lies the problem. Everybody wants a dog. And you have to wonder, well, why do you want a dog? And I always ask that every class that I’ve ever taught for, you know, a thousand trainers and et cetera, et cetera, over the years, why, why do you have a dog? And, you know, it’s, I’ve only had one person and answer it for the original reason.

That was for survival. ’cause he had to live out in the woods for years. So he actually had a dog with him to help him and the dog survive. And, um, otherwise. That’s how we came together in the first place as a copec. And that’s, that’s a, that’s a, I’ll say it’s more than a theory that we are a copec because we wouldn’t have survived without the help of that first tool that we had, frankly, uh, for survival, which was dogs.

They have better scent detection than us for miles. They have better hearing, four times more critical hearing than we do their eyesight. They can see 61% of ultraviolet light. We see zero. That’s why we call it ultraviolet. So they look at you and they can see that hole in the spot where you have an ulcer or cancer or things like that from the outside.

They literally can see into you. So. We survive better because we had dogs as a partner and a cos species. And that’s the whole point of relationship based training and behavior modification. It’s about the relationship. Um, so the more you understand about history, you know, genetics, neurobiology, the, the, you know, morphology of dogs, uh, what they were for, how they lived with us for the first 35,000 years until we got into what we call civilization, the cities, you know, starting 15, 10 to 15,000 years ago.

And then their purpose changed and was no longer a HU partner, uh, or alerts. It was alert against. Other canines and predators to keep our foods safe when we settled down and territory became something to fight over. So war didn’t really happen on, on the scale until city States came around. So understanding a lot of history helps you to understand we became a cos species.

They’ve affected us. As a matter of fact, we’ve lost about 10% of our brain capacity over the past 50,000 years. ’cause we didn’t need it. Why not? Because we didn’t need it to survive for us. But dogs themselves provided those additional things that, uh, we no longer needed to do. Uh, dogs have also lost 20% of their brain capacity.

You can say they got a little bit more out of the bargain, but I. What happened was in nature, you know, the brain takes 20% of the energy. So 1% mass of a dog is the brain. So the mass takes 20% of the energy, heat, blood, all of that stuff. So to survive, if you don’t need a percentage of that to survive and do well and thrive, then nature itself eliminates that part.

’cause it’s a waste of energy. There’s no need for it. You have what you have. So that whole concept of, of more than a theory is now a lot more scientists, behaviorists, et cetera, are beginning to recognize, uh, what we’ve been saying for the past 30 years is we’re really a cos species with dogs. And we survive better that way.

I have no idea what your question was. I just start rambling. Sorry. No, it’s good. But I think that’s a good segue back to what Jason had asked earlier. So you know about breeding and specifically with huskies, but we could talk about all breeds. All of ’em do. And you know, you made your point on, on spay and neuter and it’s, I think one, you didn’t specifically say this, but a lot of the good breeding stock goes away because of spay and neuter, right?

Sure. They sell their dogs, they get spayed and neutered, you know, right away. Uh, what is your recommendation? What would you like to see happen? I don’t have the answer for that. I really don’t. What I’d like to see is the more of a public education, more of an outreach by organizations like IACP that have the best idea for dogs and humans, you know, and, uh, an outreach to, to the general public.

’cause it’s not the trainers that are our problem. It, it’s the general public that, uh, that don’t understand. They go buy a dog like it’s a refrigerator. And it’s not, it’s a living sentient being, it’s a partner and to, to buy something. You think you own it, but you don’t own a life. So the issue with that is then you treat it like it’s a disposable property.

And so we need to change as much as we can. The idea of how intelligent dogs really are,

I think one that’s the answer guys. That’s the answer. ’cause then people will have more respect in the first place for that animal and not see it as a, not see it as an emotional dump for them to sit on their lap and pet ’em.

Yeah. Yeah. I think one thing too is, is this, for lack of a better way to put it, campaign in recent years to, um, really sort of make the breeding of dogs such a negative thing. Yeah. Right. Um, you know, breeders are bad. Shelters are good. And don’t get me wrong, we do a ton of work with shelters. Yeah, me too.

I mean, we do lots and lots of work with shelters. We also do some breeding. Um, but we breed very, um. Select dogs, select breeds for very specific purposes. And, you know, without the ability to do that, uh, it would, it would definitely put us in a position where we weren’t able to provide drug dogs and service dogs and some of the things that people need.

So, yeah, I think there’s been a, a pretty consistent campaign to create a belief in the minds of the general public that breeding as a whole is, is just bad. Yeah. Well, once you eliminate all the breeding, there’s no dogs. We’re already, we’re, we have already taken good stock out of all the gen, the good genetics.

When, when you look at the massive amount of spay, neuter and directed by each state, frankly, here in the United States, that you must, if it goes into a shelter or you know, animal control or whatever else, to get back out again. You’ve taken good dogs out of the, outta the mix. And so what is left, the majority of those dogs coming out now are accidentals backyards or, you know, puppy mills, frankly, and take a look in some of those places.

I’ve had to go into those places and it’s frankly horrifying. I used to work with a lot of, you know, beyond terror dogs that lived their lives literally in a tiny cage, just turning around the cage. ’cause that’s all it could do for eight years of its life till it died and just, you know, bred over and over and over again.

Uh, just, it’s, it’s a horrendous thing. And I wish people would look at that and say, that’s wrong. Not correct breeding of dogs, but that’s wrong. That’s what needs to be gotten rid of is all the puppy mills. And the puppy mills. It’s. It’s money and it’s tax dollars. You want, you want controversy. Here it is, guys.

You know, ’cause those places, and a lot of those places are so-called secretive, but you, it’s funny how they’ve got, you know, number one, number two, number three, number four, number five states for puppy mills. They know where all of them are. So why not do something about it? That’s, that’s what needs to happen.

Then you will get people who, if they want a dog, it’s kinda like the difference between, you know, making a, uh, a, uh, a cheap, cheap, cheap car or going for a Porsche when the cheap car goes away. ’cause you know, it’s in a tree in Yugoslavia somewhere, you know? Uh, bring back the Yugo. Yeah. Well. Yeah, my son was in special ops and he was in Kosovo and other places around the world, and he came around in a Humvee, uh, one mountain and there was a, there was a Hugo off in the top of a tree off the side of the mountain.

So that’s, yeah. Anyway, you know, it’s what quality do you want? And people think dog’s a dog, you know, just like buying any other product, you know, and if it goes bad, you throw it away, start over. That’s a living sent b that’s what we need to change the idea about. They think they’re intelligent, they’re amazing animals.

And if you don’t have that understanding of it, that’s really what I try to teach. Even professional trainers who’ve, you know, worked for 20, 30, 40 years, they, they’re great at what they do, but. The missing piece is what I try to teach. So I think a lot of people struggle. You had mentioned the difference between a a Porsche and a Yugo is that people SI think a lot understand the difference between breeds, but they don’t understand how different dogs can be within a breed.

So they hear German Shepherd, right. And they think they’re all the same. And I, I think that’s one reason why a lot of people don’t investigate the breeding. Like every trainer knows about puppy mills. But I feel like most clients that, at least that I deal with, know very little about puppy mills. Right.

And I think it’s in their mind they’re like, well, I’m getting a German Shepherd, but they’re not thinking about where are you getting it? Right? Where did it come from? There’s a zillion types of German Shepherd good, bad, and everything in between. Yeah. And to me, that’s where a lot of education needs to lie, is to explain, because I think they think of ’em like a brand, right?

Like all the Porsches are the same. All German Shepherd are all huskies, all the, are the same. And obviously we know that’s not the case, correct? Correct. Yeah. Each one is an individual, just like every human is an individual and you have good, bad, and indifferent and, uh, yeah. It’s, it’s, you know, I mean, IAP is an educational, it’s educational for a number of reasons.

The organization’s educational. That was our original purpose and intent was to educate trainers, but also public. So. You know, just one more thing guys, you know, that’s all you need. One more thing, but, uh, I, I know how it goes. I know, I, I, I did my time. I got paroled, I got off board. Jason, Jason’s got time.

Just send him an email. He’ll do it. I’m sure he, yeah, I’m sure he has. If it’s 30 hours a day, he’ll make it work. He’ll do. Yeah. I spent, uh, 50 years of my life doing that, you know, 30 hours a day, you know, there, you know, like I said, I don’t have the answer. The answer is much more complex and, you know, it’s changing.

It’s always changing hearts and minds. Well, hearts, you know, people are into dogs, obviously, but the minds, that’s the hard part. And so it’s, it’s literally about a campaign, a long campaign at educating the public. That’s, that’s where it’s, that’s where it’s gonna change and lawmakers and et cetera, et cetera.

You know, I worked for, gosh, I don’t know how many decades now, trying to get the, uh, Mexican gray wolf to be accepted back into the state of Texas. You know, there were experimental populations in New Mexico and Arizona that we got going many, many years ago. And, uh, and they’ve been at times, you know, once we got the, the human extra patient stopped and, and put under law that it’s against the law and you will be, you know, imprisoned and fined, uh, to stop, uh, stop killing those wolves.

’cause they’re the second most, um, endangered, not just wolf, but species in the United States. And, uh, there’s less than 400 of them in the wild. And we started with seven captured in Mexico. That was it. That was all that was left. And um, so, but here in Texas, you know, we have the, and I understand the arguments again from all sides.

I’m not some idealistic guy. You know, you got the cattlemen and you got the hunters and all that stuff that are against wolves coming back. Well, their original until 1973, there were Mexican gray wolves in Texas. The last one was killed then. And the Big Bend area of Texas, west Texas. And the um, actually huge national park in Mexico across the border from that are the perfect massive zone for a wolf population.

And we need four separate individual population centers. We’ve got the Arizona, we’ve got New Mexico, but we need. For total, for the survival of the species because the genetics start changing on their own. And then corridors, natural corridors for those. And big Ben’s perfect place to do that. But um, yeah, I’ve been working, you know, what I learned was that you gotta change the mind of the people to then put pressure on the politicians to then change the bureaucrats.

’cause the bureaucrats are really the ones in charge of all that. And so, uh, long story short, uh, same thing has to happen with dogs and all the, the breeding stuff. So it’s really a campaign to get to the people, to get some, uh, activation of, of people, you know, talking to their, talking to their congressmen, et cetera, et cetera.

So then change ideas and understanding. It’s all about changing minds. All right, everybody. Let’s take a quick break to talk about our friends. Aurora cold weather should not stop you or your dog from staying active and enjoying daily outside time. Aurora, the most trusted, heated apparel brand in the US has been the number one heated apparel choice for dog trainers and owners for a decade.

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Yeah, that, that is going to definitely take some time. Yeah. Uh, to say the least. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So you, so get right on that. Yeah. Starting, starting right now. Yeah. Okay. Um, so you mentioned, I can’t remember what you called it, but you mentioned, um, basically teaching people, uh, I don’t wanna use the word secret ’cause that’s not the word you used earlier.

Um, stop basic, basically sort of the, the, the key to that Dog’s mind survival. Yeah. Yeah. To, to have them. Every, every question goes back to how does that dog see survival? Yeah. How do you, how do you approach, how do you approach teaching people to get inside the mind of a dog? Well, that takes years honestly.

It, it does. I mean, we’ve got very, very smart people that, you know, come to classes, uh, for years and, um, you know, I, I have. I started the institute in 2016, but I’ve been teaching people for a long time. What, what Essentially became course one at the center. Uh, and I traveled all over the world, you know, teaching that course essentially.

And it’s a, it’s a primer, if you will. It’s a basic information about the real history of not just canines, but animals completely, you know, going back hundreds of millions of years we go through how did we get to this point? ’cause to get to this point, you have to understand what, how that. How that happened, where it came from.

Why do, why does behavior, why do animals have the morphology that they do? Why are we the way we are? What is our relationship? Can we think like them and the base elements are Yes, we can in certain ways because we have, we have, you know, the limbic system, the brain itself, the what we call the lower brain and then our cerebral cortex above that.

Well, dogs have the same parts, but they also have the same neurotransmitters and hormones in their body. The same exact wands, 200 or so. And that is your thought. So when you think, when you have emotion, when you emote, when you, when you think certain things, the reason you’re thinking that way is because of the neurotransmitters and hormones that get between the synaptic gaps on those synaptic sacks and send that signal in a certain way.

You know? So neurotransmitters are there to either, you know, as an excitor, as an inhibitor or a modulator, and then there’s a soup mix in there. So that mix, literally, it doesn’t stay contained there. It gets it’s, you sweat it outta your pores, you breathe every breath you have. That dog, because of its sense of smell, can smell every one of those things.

And because it knows how it feels when it smells, that in itself it knows how you feel. So your emotions, your thoughts, everything are revealed regardless of what you’re doing with the rest of your body. So are you congruent in the rest of your body and what you are saying, quote unquote, to a dog in its nose?

So it’s about congruency and in other words, if my smile belies my fear, that dog doesn’t trust me and it smells the fear. Oops. I can’t, I can’t hear you. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. I said, it sounds like the science behind dogs and bees smell fear. Yeah, pretty much. And it’s not just fear, it’s everything. Um, it, it is literally everything.

They smell it all, uh, they see through you and they, they smell through you. So you can’t lie to a dog. And, and all you can do is you can create distrust. So being congruent with everything you do, you feel, you act, you behave, you signal correctly. The way they signal to body, position, movement, posture, intent, distance, speed, that’s their language.

Those are the major elements. Then if you can communicate in a similar way, honestly, and not just congruently, but consistently. So your consistency, your clarity, ’cause clarity, contrast begets clarity. So if I’m like this emotionally, constantly, and sound and all the activities that I do, when is a dog supposed to pick out what I’m doing for it?

It, it can’t. So it has to pay attention more than it wants to. ’cause you’ll wear out a dog from even bothering with you. You’re irrelevant. That’s what I was saying earlier. So instead, if you’re calm, composed, and consistent and you’ve got this, that little blip is noticeable, then I don’t have to go here to get that dog’s attention.

All I’ve gotta do is that, and that’s a contrast. And the dog knows that. That’s a contrast and studies that. So if you’re consistent with that little contrast, I can get that dog in three times to do whatever. Why? Because the first time was a surprise. The second time is an ab B comparison. The third time is a pattern.

And then we re-pattern again. 1, 2, 3, A, B, C, A, B. The B becomes the new A if it’s better. So that’s a new comparison. B. So now I’m focusing that here’s the broad. Path. Now let’s go narrower and narrow. And that’s what teaching does guys. That’s what training does. You are working with a brain from your brain to that brain.

It’s stop looking at the outside of a dog. You’re working with a brain and you have to know how brains work, right? Yeah. Just to kind of tie a couple things together, Nelson. I see an issue with a lot of clients where I, I always explain it as the dog is living for itself and you are living for yourself, meaning you’re not working as a team.

Right. Where people aren’t training their dogs until they call in a trainer. The dog is not often not paying attention to the owner, and why should it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And people often hear, you know, if you’re calm, your dog will be calm. If you’re confident, your dog will be confident. And I’m often explaining to my clients new clients, that’s not gonna be the case because when you’re walking the dog, it’s not looking at you like, Hey, is he calm?

Your dog’s reactive? He’s in his own world, he is doing his own thing. And you haven’t, you haven’t spent the time to build that relationship. So I’m curious what you think about that. ’cause I tell many people, just fake it till you make it. Don’t worry about not being scared in the scenario. Don’t worry about being confident, build the relationship with your dog, and through time they’re gonna pay attention and take signs and cues from you.

But right now they’re just simply not. What, what are your thoughts on that? So, you know, in, in the course one, I, I have several exercises that I, that I do through it. It’s a three day, um, in person or a eight day, three hours a day, uh, online. And I have them do specific exercises to introduce their dog to ’em.

And these are trainers. Some of ’em have been around 35, 40 years. And I literally say, I’m gonna introduce your dog to you. And I’m sure people think I’m arrogant or something until they end up crying because they didn’t realize how smart their dog was. And, um, so it’s, it’s, it’s been an interesting process over the years on how to teach what actually happens.

How can you reach your dog quickly? First of all is pay attention to what it pays attention to. Because once again, we know when we hear that noise over a few blocks away, we immediately register it and go, okay, I know that’s a truck doing this, that, et cetera. The dog doesn’t. It’s still thinking like it’s 40,000 years ago.

That’s a potential threat. Uh, and when it sees you not paying attention to the environment, it goes, you’re an idiot. I’ve gotta ramp it up to, because I’m tied to you, I gotta protect you too, and I’ve gotta amp it up even more. That’s the problem. So people not, not understanding what their dog is, what it’s concerned about, and you taking the time to understand.

Um, it’s, it’s not, lemme put it this way, it’s not if your dog does this, do that as if your dog does this. Let’s back it up. Why? And it’s usually that disconnect between humans and dogs and, you know, it’s not a machine. So if I can show you that you lost your dog a long time ago after it was a puppy because you became irrelevant, because you don’t pay attention to these things.

If I can get you to pay attention to this, ask your dog to sniff the base of that tree. Sweep your hand there, pat it. Have the dog sniff you. Sniff and go. Good boy. You’ll see that dog go. I didn’t know you had a nose. Literally. So we mimic and create, if you watch a dog and what it does, and you do the same thing, you will gain street cred with that dog.

And I’m not talking about getting on all fours and smelling, you know, the tail end and stuff like that. I’m just saying. Be interested in the same things. If you observe your dog looking, smelling, hearing, you may not know exactly what it’s thinking or interested in, but if you look that way and your dog peripherally even sees you doing that, it goes, ah, you’ve got this.

And then you go, yeah, that’s not interesting. Let’s go on up here, buddy. Then the dog says, ah, well okay, you know that that’s not of an interest or a primary threat. So I’ll be relaxed and go too, ’cause I’ve got a partner who’s interested in the same things that I am. Makes sense. So. That’s one of the things that I always taught my clients and trainers now, uh, was be interested in what your dog’s interested in.

You know, what do, what do people do? Oh, you know, I, I, I take my dog for a walk, you know, 20 minutes before I go to work, and then when I come back for an hour, I say, well, what do you do on the walk? Well, he is always trying to sniff things and I have to pull him back and, okay, so it’s like you going for a walk blindfolded.

You’re preventing the dog from being a dog and showing interest. Instead, why don’t you put your phone down and actually enjoy being with your dog instead of it being a labor intensive, you know, act that you were told you have to walk your dog. Now you can spend five minutes on a replicated hunt of activity in your backyard and it satiates the dog.

So, so Nelson, you, you, you said earlier that you. Your goal, your focus is training trainers, right? That’s that’s what I do. Yes. And that you’re, you’re not really focused on training pet owners, but I guess my question is, based on the statement you just made, what, what would probably be the most important piece of advice that you would give to a pet owner?

’cause we talk about relationship, right? And how important that is. But most people never tell us what that looks like or exactly how to do it, right? Yeah. So what would be your advice to the pet owner, uh, regarding relationship building with their dog? Because, um, well,

hmm, the simplest way I could explain it is your dog should matter to you, not as, as a thing you want, but as its own entity. And so what it’s interested in, find out what it’s interested in and why stop preventing it from doing specific things that you get embarrassed about. Not from, but from the opinions of other people.

Yeah. If you, if you engage with your dog, like sweeping your hand to the bottom of a mailbox post and the dog goes over and sniffs and, and the engagement with the dog is pat on the back. Good boy. Okay. Well, you just change the literal neurobiology of that brain and dog to enjoy that moment that you ask the dog to do something.

It did so, and then just that connection right there, the physical touch, which of course you touch the back of anybody, their brain goes immediately to that. What are you doing? In microsecond and then goes up the arm to try to figure out, okay, what, what’s your intent? And when you’re happy for the dog, you create oxytocin and you create a a, a dopamine rush, a happiness, okay?

Dopamine has been found to be the fear killer. When you have a fear situation, dopamine literally rewires the brain to not be fearful anymore. So you’re out in the environment and if you go, Hey buddy, that’s good, boy, let’s go over here. Let’s check this out now. The dog’s enjoying it because of the relationship with you, enjoying your dog instead of constantly in conflict with it.

Pulling it back, it’s pulling on you. You know, it’s a labor. All of these things instead, go out and have fun with your dog. And you’ll be amazed at the changes that happen. So literally, enjoy your dog again. Why do you have a dog? It goes back to that question. So the, the, the game changer is the, the change of behavior and attitude in a dog when you’re actually enjoying your dog and doing things with it.

It’s about engagement and it’s not on your terms. You can, to get trust, you have to give trust, and that’s the hardest thing for humans to do, is to give trust. We don’t trust a lot, but you can trust your dog and if you give the trust and you, and you ask the dog to do something, and it responds, now you can revel in that relationship, that happiness with the dog.

And now you gotta partner. Not something that you’re obligated to do something with because society says so. So I don’t know if that’s the answer you want, but that, that one definitely works. Yeah, yeah, definitely works. So it’s, it’s about engagement. It’s about consistency and it doesn’t have to be drilling your dog.

That’s the one thing I always, you know, gosh, out of, you know, eight, 10,000 dogs I worked with and the clients, uh, probably, you know, 4,000 clients, ’cause I always worked with packs of dogs ’cause they were the ones always having the fight, you know, six German shepherds that started fighting amongst themselves and I’d walk in and have to deal with all of ’em, that sort of thing.

So, um, you know, the number one thing is, is really just, just having an understanding of what a dog is, how it thinks. What our histories together are and being able to understand that you’re working with that brain, that’s a primal, instinctual brain. Okay? And it’s not trying to get away with things. It’s not a human child of three years of age.

So that’s, that’s the difference. And of course, the fur baby thing, um, I mean, we love our dogs, but that is, uh, disrespectful to that animal to think of it in that way. It’s much more intelligent in areas we have no idea about, frankly. So I, I always have to laugh at the comparative analysis of, you know, different dog breeds in, in age of humans, you know?

Oh, it’s just like a 3-year-old child. Well, not when it’s doing what a dog really does, a predator does. It’s not a three-year-old human child, you know? And it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t be in a stroller. Yeah, no. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What if it’s a, what if it’s a pom ski? Where else are you gonna put your pom ski?

Yeah. They make, they make bags for those things. You still don’t put ’em in a stroller.

Yeah. I mean, people love their dogs and, and unfortunately in modern society, humans emote all sorts of things because of the stress of modern society and culture and all that stuff. But that’s, that doesn’t affect dogs other than the way you treat ’em. So, well, I think we all, all see this. I, I know I do.

I’m assuming you guys do that with many young people. Dogs seem to replace children, right? Yeah. And there’s, it seems to be a large trend where there’s a lot of people that use the term fur baby. And you know, in theory it means they really, really love their dog. But so many of ’em see it. As a child, and obviously that leads to so many problems.

It’s a replacement. That’s true. But there’s also a fairly new study and it just got out unfortunately, on Facebook. So everybody’s talking about it, or few are talking about it. You know, there’s over 300 connection points between us and dogs. 300, um, I’ll say concepts, ideas, emotions, and stuff like that where there’s fewer than 170 with another human.

So when a dog dies, you may feel it more as a break in your emotions, trust, et cetera, than some humans. For some, you know, some human connections are less than what the dog, as far as our brains are concerned. Now, the depth of that, you know, that’s yet to be known, may never, so, you know, the. Quote, unquote, loyalty of a dog.

The not turning on you, the things that you can do with, for and against a dog. And it still has to be, be with you. So it excuses a lot of behaviors of humans and, you know, uh, go home and, and cry into your dog’s fur and the dog doesn’t get up and run away going, eh, you’re an idiot. So, you know, that’s, that’s the lovely thing.

It’s also the problem if you make, you make it a habit and, um, modern society is very difficult. I think that it’s much more complex than, um, you know, I mean world population, the, the loss of individualism, all of these things that factor into that. So everybody needs some touchstone to be able to have some sanity.

And dogs have. Dogs are better at that, frankly, than a human child. ’cause a human child is a lot more responsibility and, and for a lot longer than a dog is. So, you know, there’s a lot of factors involved. It’s it, you know, is it good? Is it bad? Time will tell. Well, do you mind expanding a, a little bit? You had said that when you consider a dog to be like a three-year-old child or whatever, I think every trainer knows that’s wrong.

Right? The comparison that dogs are obviously not people, but you mentioned that it’s basically an insult to the dog. Could you expand on that thought a little bit? Well, certainly, I mean, dogs, dogs have senses and capabilities beyond us. So comparing it, it would be as if, you know, a, a dolphin, uh, rated our intelligence based upon how long we can hold our breath underwater.

Uh, good analogy. You know, or, or the old, uh, the old adage, you know, you’ve got an, an elephant, a snake, a chimpanzee, an anti eater, you know, these different animals, and you say, okay, whoever can climb to the top of that tree first, you’re the smartest. It’s a non sequitur. So, uh, rating intelligence is basically what I’ve seen.

You know, they always rate, uh, you know, uh, border colies, you know, Aussies, uh, German shepherds, those types at the top of the list for highly intelligent dogs. Well, that’s because those were made by humans to do what humans ask them to do. So you ranking that on what a human wants. Trust me, Siberian Huskies are in the top five in intelligence.

They’re just gonna go, yeah, no, and laugh about it because. They’re super intelligent and their survival instinct. Look, if I’m in Siberia, I’m following them. They’re not following me. So it’s all about the environment they came from and what it was about. Okay. You know, we’ve got, you know, I, I talk about, you know, KS of charcoals, those, ’cause I’ve worked with those and, um, uh, they are, you know, once they’re about four months of age, they’re no longer a puppy and they’re making their own decisions.

And if you haven’t met them during that time, they were a puppy. They can make a decision, you’re an enemy and attack you, period, on their own. And, you know, that’s what, for hundreds of years, you know, the, the valleys of the caucus, mountains where of Charas were developed. They were out there protecting against bulls, bears, humans, everybody to come in that valley.

That’s what they were there for. And they made their own decisions. They weren’t house pets. So, uh, each, each breed has its own specifics. And, you know, we got, uh, we have probably 78% I believe of dog breeds right now, we call modern European breeds. That was when the Europeans got, uh, you know, basically, uh, killed most of the wolves, bears everything else, and had nothing else to worry about except other humans, and created a lot of wars.

So the, the a feet, uh, elite and, and royals started making their own little, you know, pocket dogs and stuff just for laughs just to occupy their time. And that’s where we got most of the original, the, the, the, how many terrier types are there in Ireland alone, everybody has their own little tiny special, you know, terrier.

Um. Because they wanted it to be specific for their, their thing. And so now they’re all considered separate breeds. You know, it’s like the Melan law. We’ve got four different coats and slight different brains now because of the time separation. Because we wanted it for, you know, you got lock and law, you’ve got the moan laws, you’ve got, you know, Dale, you’ve got different ones that all come from the same base animal, and that’s, that’s the human use and want for that specific purpose, intent, and how you want it.

So it’s all human created stuff. That’s where Huskies created themselves. We didn’t create ’em. Yeah, I think the brains part of the malise definitely are. Yeah, saw a, uh, high end. I saw an article not that long ago, probably in the last year, where some, somebody I don’t know, who had, uh, claimed to have done some research and had, um, determined that the Belgian Malis was the smartest breed on the planet.

And I read that and I’m like, there’s absolute, I’ve, I’ve dealt with way too many of them. They’re absolutely not for. Yeah. For what? For what purpose? If that’s what you want, then it’s the smartest breed for what you want. Yeah. That’s the difference. Yeah. Uh, tell that to a Jack Russell. Yeah. I mean, I taught, I taught a Jack Russell how to play soccer in five minutes.

You couldn’t get the ball past him and he would pass it back to you. I mean, it was just amazing. So, you know, depends on what you want. So yeah, this, this argument about intelligence, I honestly, guys, I have never, ever, ever met a dumb dog. Never. Not once I’ve met brain damaged dogs that either through genetics, medical, or uh, abuse.

One of ’em that I had for the last four years of her life, she couldn’t go anywhere else ’cause she had been beaten in the head with a baseball bat. Um. I’m thrown away on a construction site to die. And I got her a couple of months later when they couldn’t do anything with her and she just lived out her life with me.

She was sweetest thing ever, but it took 10 times as long to get anything through to her. You can’t be frustrated, you can’t feel sorry. You can’t help someone. You’re feeling sorry for so, but she was fantastic. Dog love her to death, but she was already ancient. I’m surprised she lived out the four years, but I’m glad she does ’cause she was such a sweet dog and that was a husky.

So yeah, I’ve had some pretty serious things over the years. That’s, that’s basically where I learned my stuff was um, I would take the behavior cases that nobody else wanted to or capable of or that they referred to me ’cause they didn’t wanna deal with it. And so that’s where I learned the extremes. And it’s not what, what people don’t understand.

It’s not fear on one end and aggression on the other. It’s, here’s the ones in the middle, the 60%, and then you’ve got the edges all the way around. There’s so many different behaviors and, and capabilities that it’s, it’s nothing’s linear. It’s kinda like our argument of balanced versus purely positive or all these other things.

When you argue about the quote unquote opposite, you negate all these other things around that are also there. And so those arguments back and forth actually benefits each other by having a counter rather than paying attention to anything. All the other information out here, so I. I have a controversial opinion about that too.

Yeah. Matt, Matt has consistently said, and I, I think I agree. I don’t know what the number, I don’t know if you’ve used a number, but, uh, he’s consistently said that despite, which can’t you may consider yourself to be in, we as trainers, as an industry, um, we agree on a whole lot more Yes. Than we disagree on.

Yeah. I think you may have used the number 90% or something at some point, but Yeah, it’s, it’s, yeah. It’s way up there. It is. Uh, you know, I’ve worked in 54 countries on earth, on five continents, and, uh, people are people, it’s the same thing. You know, people just want to survive. They want to be. Well fed happy, you know, food, water, shelter, same thing as a dog wants food, water, shelter, and everything else after that is gravy.

So how you put that together is the dog you create. If you ignore the dog and you just expect it to do something that you want, that’s not gonna happen. So anyway. So people, people are people. Let’s talk about training people if we can, because that’s, uh, something you’ve spent a lot of time doing. Yeah.

Over the years. Um, I always tell people, dogs are easy, people are hard. Um, I don’t know if you agree with that, but, uh, that’s been my experience so far. The people are a little, a little more difficult to deal with sometimes than dogs. Um, so what, I guess, what is your, what is your approach to training people?

What’s, what do you find to be the, the magic sauce to make it work? I’m still trying to find that, um. So what I’ve discovered is

here, here’s what I say. You know, every, every workshop or course that I’ve ever, um, the, the first course some people come to, uh, over the years, you know, I, I always go around to the entire group. If it was, you know, 35 people or you know, 10, I didn’t care. I took the time to, you know, who are you, what do you do where you are, and, um, and why are you here?

And why are you here? Always catches them with, you know, well, I’m just here to, you know, put another couple of tools in my toolbox, and my own response is, I’m here to explode your toolbox.

And then at the end of the course, I asked them, did I explode your toolbox? Yes, you did. Good. That was successful. So how do you do that? Well, first of all, you. Uh, not intentionally, but you overwhelm people with information they had no idea about none and make it relevant to them. It’s not just superfluous, uh, facts and it’s not, you know, most people, trainers, and otherwise they, you know, because probably 30% of the people over the years that have come to, you know, the first course that I teach in line, much less others, um, probably 30% are not trainers and they get fascinated about it.

Um, so it’s understanding dogs from the standpoint of, if I can help you, first of all, everybody’s got a body of knowledge, right? Uh, you’ve got your life, so you’ve got life experience with dogs without, with humans, et cetera, et cetera. The environment. Understanding the environment, how it affects things, how it affects you, all these things.

And if I can help you to change your perspective about how you see all of that body of work knowledge stuff that you do, if I change your perspective, you can analyze, reanalyze all of this and actually double potentially your knowledge. So it’s about changing your perspective. It isn’t, if this happens, do this because that’s simple to teach, but it’s, and it may work 60% of the time, but what about the other 40%?

So if you understand more about it from a different perspective, now you’ve got other options that you can see to try different things. And nuance too. Because what most people want is an answer, you know, from, here’s my question, I want you to answer this. And rarely do I ever answer that specific thing.

I’m gonna give them a different perspective about, well, let’s go backwards in time and show you how it got to here in the first place. Now you won’t get there anymore. That dog will not get to that point anymore because you’ve changed. And that’s the key, is the person change, not the dog. Stop crushing the dog.

Stop putting it on the dog. I mean, when you guys are successful with clients, you change their behaviors, don’t you? There it is. So it’s about changing their understanding. They’re the ones that have to learn. Like you said, it’s easy to teach a dog comparatively. So it’s really about changing their perspective about what a dog is, why it’s there.

You know, all of us could walk into somebody’s house and I’ve done it thousands of times. You know, walk in the first time, oh, the dogs are gonna jump on you. They got five dogs, they’re gonna do this and do that. And I walk in, step in, close the door, let ’em sniff me for 15 seconds and they all walk away and go sit down.

And everybody goes, they’ve never done that before. I said, well what did I do different?

Well, and then they have to think about it. And that’s what I wanted ’em to do. I wanted ’em to pause and think, ’cause the conversation is about the pause. And so, and the same thing with dogs. The conversations in the pause between even a microsecond of pause. ’cause they have to think if they’re not thinking, they’re just in an instinctual brain and they will do what they’ve always been programmed to do.

So you have to pause them for a second and think about, okay. Let me change my perspective then. So what they end up realizing is I didn’t come in and fuss with the dogs and get all smooch and excited and everything else that the dogs were trying to see. Can, can I influence this, this big monkey? And my response is, Nope, you can’t influence me.

Okay, I’m calm, I’m, I’m relaxed. Doesn’t matter, okay, you’re, you’re, you’re sniffing me trying to poke me at 15 seconds back off, just matter of fact. And those little things as examples, changes people’s understanding and perspective. That’s the best thing you can do for a client. Your example is never to show up your client.

Your example is for you to show them how humans can be with dogs. That’s the way I’ve always approached it. So yeah, definitely a good way to look at it. So. A simple answer for a very complex question as always. Yeah. Want to turn your passion for dogs into professional career at the school? For Dog trainers at Highland Canine Training, we offer expert led in-depth courses that fully prepare you for successful career in the dog training industry.

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Visit international dog trainer school.com and unleash your future today. So anyway, uh, I’ve been talking all this time. What’d you guys want to ask? This is good. We’re, we’re digging deep today and it’s not hard to dig with you. We just. Give you the shovel and you start digging. Pretty much. Yeah. I’m halfway right there.

It’s getting hot down here.

Got through the Cro Nelson. Just a follow up question on what you were just talking about. You keep using the word perspective, and I’m just intrigued. Changing perspective or changing the lens you see the world with is hard, right? It’s not an easy thing and sometimes there’s an aha moment that does it.

But I’m curious, do you see a difference between younger people or older people, or someone that’s been a trainer longer versus shorter? Are there times where you feel like it’s easier to change the lens this person uses because of this? Whether it’s age, experience, uh,

frankly, age, experience, uh, being a trainer, being not a trainer ever having a dog, none of that matters. Everybody comes to the information that I provide with no knowledge or very little knowledge. And that’s the reason that I specifically teach that is because they need to know it and they’re not getting it out there in society.

So it’s, in a way, it’s easy to change their perspective. ’cause I’m presenting with information they don’t get elsewhere. They don’t seek that out. And, but it’s never easy to change someone’s mind. You have to provide enough substantive information that is factual, true, and provable. And, but you have to come at it from, it may take me eight different times of explaining it in a different manner because each personality’s gonna, I.

It’s gonna resonate with a different personality, the way that you present that same information. So it’s, it, the way I give an example is, you know, in, uh, these guys got, uh, Nobel Peace Prize years ago for creating the shadow. You know, when, when you go from a point to two points, that’s a line, right? And when you go at a right angle to a line, then you’re creating a flat plane.

So you go from a line to a plane. When you, when you change a 90 degree plane into space, now you’ve got three dimensions. You’ve got a cube, okay? When you cube, or 90 degrees to itself, that goes into a fourth dimension that we don’t experience. But these guys created the shadow, the mathematical shadow, in three dimensions of that four dimensional object.

And it looks nothing like a cube. That’s what you’re doing is you’re creating a shadow of that fourth dimension. In other words, what people don’t know and can’t understand yet in the three dimensions they already know. So you’re giving examples that they can try and it’s really giving them permission to just enjoy their dog.

It’s having them go out and, you know, one of the exercises that I do on, on leash handling is, um, go out there, stand, turn at least 90 degree away from your dog and stand and wait for it to look and make, start to make a move your direction. If it’s over here, you don’t move, you keep looking this way. And so it, when it finally, at any point it starts to move your way, you take that step and go, and within two times the dog goes, oh, we’re going together.

If I join you in the direction you want to go. There’s no must, no fuss, no pulling, no nothing. You’re waiting for the dog to understand, look, we’ll go together. If I’m facing that way and you’re not facing that way or you’re not going one to go that way, the first step you even take to the side, I’m gonna go, yep.

And that reinforces it. And nobody’s ever done that before. And there’s very little effort involved. You stand and you wait for the dog. And sometimes you may wait for 10 minutes ’cause you may have a Siberian Husky or a Jack Russell. But once you do, then you’ve got communication. Got that concept of understanding between your partners going together, let’s move together.

And that is such a simple, effective, and it’s an amazement to humans. Rather than tell the dog what to do, just wait for the dog. Now it’s cooperative. And, um, that’s a pretty interesting one. The other thing, for instance, is a, an exercise I do, which is I, I did at conference last year, which is have two lines of people facing each other.

You’ve got one partner, that’s the only one that you look at. You’re about 12 feet apart. One line gets down and you’re the height of a dog, maybe a German Shepherd. If you can squat down, you know, if you’re in Chihuahua, you’re laying down on the ground. And so it gives you perspective of the dog. Now have those people, the handler approach, and what’s that feel like?

Let’s take different approaches. Let’s see how that works. Let’s go behind them. And how does that feel to you? Even knowing that’s a human, you’re a human, it still gives you a perspective of how that dog feels, about how you approach, when you approach the speed you approach, how close you come, how far away you are, all of those things.

And each side gets to take that turn. So now these are the guys are the handlers, these are the dogs. And I’ve used that with, I used that with my clients for years and then I started teaching it to trainers and now people use it all the time in their, in their teaching to their, to their clients. And it does, that is a massive perspective change.

’cause people have never thought about how the dog feels about anything, right? So mm-hmm. It’s those little things that, you know, you,

the best thing and the worst thing is a human ego.

And Nelson. That’s kinda what I was getting at earlier when I was asking if you see differences in how people change their perspective. Because for some people the ego’s too big. Right. And um, I’ve read a book and they talk about being humble in the book, humble, hungry and smart are the three words they use.

And some people are just not humble and they need to learn to become humble. I think everyone can be, but it’s very easy. And I, I think you see it a lot with dog trainers, maybe more so than some other professions that people start to think their way is the only way. Yeah. And don’t realize that just because they’re really good, it doesn’t mean there can’t be 500 other people that are really good or even better than them that they could learn from.

Yeah. And usually that’s only in one little tiny area of specialty. Here’s, here’s, so

rarely does it not touch someone, and by rarely, I mean maybe two out of a thousand, uh, uh, the ones that have a, a ego and arrogance about them will claim that they are the ones that discovered it. I’ve seen it too many times, but it still affects ’em. So the message got out there. You know, one of the things, uh, you know, I’ve been in martial arts for 57 years now in my life.

Trained, taught, et cetera, master’s level stuff, you know, so what, um, but the whole precept of how you do things is discipline, honor, respect, and humility. All four of those things have to be in place, and they have to be with dogs. When you’re working with a dog, discipline, honor, respect, humility. Um, otherwise you’re getting in the way.

So don’t know if I answer your question again. Start talking. Sorry. No, and my question was so broad. It’s just something I, I ponder often because of partly how much fighting there is in our profession where, I mean, to me a lot of it stems from a lack of being humble and knowing that. You’re not perfect and that you can learn from others.

Too many arguments about how many angels can, you know, sit on the head of a pin instead of looking at every, right. Everyone knows it’s seven. And anyone who doesn’t play seven, come on people. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. There is so many. You know, here’s, here’s what I would say, uh, I see a lot of, uh, stuck in mindsets and that’s why I say I’m, I’m here to explode your, your toolbox.

’cause I wanna change mindsets mindset. It’s not for me, it’s for them. If they wish to continue on with a very narrow path, more power to you, good luck. But to think I. In the vast universe that we know very little about. You know, everything. That’s pretty arrogant. And here’s what I would say about trainers.

You know, uh, my behaviorist pathologist friends from, you know, 40 years ago, uh, didn’t, uh, they, and obviously I’m a trainer as well, uh, they didn’t, they, they warned me not to get around trainers ’cause they hate us. So trainers think behaviorists and pathologists are idiots and trainer and behaviorists and pathologists think trainers are idiots.

And here’s what I would say is both sides need to learn the other side. It’s extremely beneficial. Uh, if you are not understanding real science. I’m not talking about the pseudoscience and the. Cherry picking of information, but the broad breadth and depth of what you’re actually working with and working toward, you’re leaving a lot on the table.

You’re, you are not benefiting yourself or your clients, I’ll put it that way. So, uh, both sides can learn from each other, and that’s, that’s really what we need to do as a profession. I mean, can you imagine where archeology would be if, if, for instance, we said, oh, we don’t want, uh, you know, satellite imagery, that ground penetrating radar from satellites so that we know where all the, the rivers and lakes and the Sahara were 7,000 years ago.

We wanna just dig in the dirt like we’ve always done, right? When you can’t find that stuff. Down there. So it’s all the technologies, all the, there’s been a massive, especially since 1990 guys, there’s been such a massive amount of technology, new information, discoveries globally. And the reason 1990 has came up was because of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Communist block.

Now we were able to, you know, you guys may not be old enough to remember the sort of damocles of communism and nuclear wars hanging over your head. Uh, I had to go, well, I didn’t have to, I volunteered to go fight elsewhere, Southeast Asia and, uh, but in a way I had to go because, you know, communism took over 60% of the world.

And it was not, nothing was available to us for research or anything else, it was just this. Wall that kept us out and they kept everything in. So once that wall fell, uh, lots more, uh, became available to us, not just archeology, but history, all sorts of things. New, new approaches, new thoughts, new ideas. And so it’s that richness of, of discovering things that, um, that add to and then have to test that, uh, is that, that testing of, is this valid?

Does it work? Does it enrich things or not? And so that takes time. But it’s been an amazing time to be alive, frankly, because the past 35 years have been an amazing change in our understanding of everything. Everything scientifically as well as behavior, as well as, you know, methodologies and tools and all that stuff.

So

it’s an exciting time to be alive and it’s, you know, I was thinking of AI earlier when you said that humans have lost a, a percentage of their brains by being around dogs for so long. And I think give us 10 years of ai, we will lose another 10 or 20%. I don’t know that we can afford it. Yeah. Then we’ll then we’ll be the pets.

This is, this is coming from the guy. Who at the board retreat got me hooked on, uh, ai. So it’s all his fault. There you go. There you go. It’ll make us dumber, but we’re gonna have so much fun. While it does well, it may open up some things to people who care to study. I’ll put it that way. You know, um, unfortunately, a great percentage of humans, not the majority, but a a lot of humans just wanna be entertained, and that’s about it.

So. Mm-hmm. So it just because of my own curiosity, um, we, it’s been a while, but you and my wife have had conversations about it. You and I have had some brief conversations about it. Um, can you kinda explain the process of your programs there in Texas? Um, because it seems pretty personally Yeah, pretty, pretty, seems pretty broad.

Um, seems like you got a pretty, um, unique, um, market and system for sort of doing things. Well, yeah, I’m told it’s unique. I didn’t know it was unique until I started getting around other trainers. I think, from what I understand, I think it is. Well that’s, that’s what I understand too. It’s normal to me.

I’ll put it that way. Okay. Alright. Um, ’cause you know, I I, it sounds trite, but I learned it from the dogs and the wolves that I lived with and studied them for what they were and, you know, have, you have to be honest with an honest animal. So, you know, how do you, how do you create something to teach people?

Uh, apparently a unique. Uh, perspective, I’ll put it that way, since we were talking about perspective. And so it’s taken years to develop, um, ways to reach people. Just like I try to reach dogs. Like I say, my, there’s hundreds of sayings that I’ve come up with over the years that are out there in the, in the industry.

And you know, one of ’em is I’d rather reach a dog than teach a dog. ’cause if I reach that dog, it will do anything I ask of it. And that’s what I mean by that partnership. Uh, by relationship, the relationship is you to the dog, not the dog to you. It’s the opposite of the way humans think. And if you are honest with that dog, then.

And so, you know, over the years I’ve had to adjust things. I’ve had different classes, different courses. I’ve tried to teach things, you know, some were, uh, popular at the moment and then faded away because people didn’t think they needed to know it. So it’s like, okay, well, uh, here’s what you need to know, guys.

Now how do I present that, uh, in different means and methods? Uh, so, you know, in at, at the institute, the Canine Human Relationship Institute is, that’s, that is my business. That’s my focus period. That’s all I do. As a matter of fact, when, when that was, uh, officially created in 2016, I swore off individual clients at that point.

’cause I never wanted to be in competition for clients with all of my students who are professional trainers. They’re already professional trainers, most all of them. And so. Uh, some people have started, um, becoming trainers coming through, but it’s a long, laborious process because it’s a much,

it’s deep dives, I’ll put it that way, into science and biology and everything else that you need to know. And it’s not the boring college textbooks that you would, you know, that you had to study, uh, back then. Uh, you know, it’s experiential stuff too. And so, uh, you know, each, each class has dogs. You either are handed, you bring or clients come in to work that you work with.

And, um, so you got a wide range of things. We’ve got five core, um. Classes that are at least a week, usually longer than that, uh, that people come to the center. They have to come there to, because everything’s set up for that there. And, um, and those five, of course one through five are specific orders, specific teachings and uh, progressions of understanding of how you do relationship based training and behavior modifications.

Uh, then we’ve got, uh, a number of other courses that some of ’em are, there’s only one that other that is required to go through and course five at the, uh, culmination of that, uh, passing that class. You become a certified relationship based trainer. And that certification, it takes a minimum of five years.

’cause you have to wait at least eight months between each one of those courses. Why? Because. They’re new concept. You have to go work those things, and you have to come up with better questions, the right questions to go to the next level. You know, people e every time I ask, you know, so could you have come straight through?

Could you have come two months later? And everybody afterwards they go, no, there’s no way to do that. So it’s, it’s inherent in itself. So it takes a lot of commitment from these people. So they must find value in it. And I pour myself into each and every class to make sure that they’re getting as much as they possibly can out of it.

Um, you know, and, and a lot of people don’t go all the way or they’re on a, um, you know, they’re on a longer timeline for economics or time, you know, or business or whatever else is going on in their lives, and that’s fine too. So, so far we’ve only had 14 graduates at level five. Um. 13 of them certified trainers.

One is not a trainer, she’s actually a physical therapist for humans. Huh. And, or not physical, I’m sorry. Mental, you know, a, a therapist in therapy, psychology. And, uh, but she’s learning to be a trainer because she uses dogs in animal assisted therapy. And so, you know, we’ve been working together for probably eight, nine years, trying to get a program, uh, helping her to get a program together.

Uh, so, you know, it’s a, it’s a long, arduous process, but, and, and, um, there’s really no quote unquote test because you’re on a path. And so the tests are the classes themselves, what you do, how you do what, what you learn from it. Coming to the next one gives you, once again, that ab comparison. And now you go to the next AB comparison and you start learning backwards too.

Oh, well, gee, I wish I’d had this before I took this. Well, you can’t do it that way, you know? Yeah. It has, it’s a progression. And then, uh, COVID came around and I never thought I would do an online course, and I actually started offering the first course online in a different way, and they still had to do exercises on their own, video it, and then we analyze it per microsecond for each person, for each exercise through the classes.

And that was a game changer. I was very happy with the results and people were. Kind of blown away because, you know, when you’re in person, you can’t say, stop. Okay, rewind. Now let’s look at when you lost that dog in this microsecond. But you can online. And so it’s, it’s changed my approach and all the other online courses that we do in analyzing that too.

And we offer a lot of different online courses. Some are already recorded and you can just take ’em, you know, you can go to the website and take ’em whenever you want to. Others are being added. I’ve got five new ones this year alone. Uh, there’ll be five more new ones next year too, that are all in order.

I’ve got about 40 courses that either are there or planned, so I better not get sick. So that’s, that’s kind of the, that’s kind of the issue. And then, uh. Yeah, to become an instructor y there’s, it’s, it’s kind of by invitation only. And that’s no nothing against anybody who doesn’t get asked. Uh, because being an instructor of a specific subject, you have to do it for a long time.

You have to understand it inherently, and you have to be good at instructing too. And sometimes you’re good at doing things and not so good at instruction. You guys have run into that a lot, haven’t you? So it requires a certain personality and as few people as get to that level in the first place, you’re not gonna have very many people who qualify for instructing.

So, and there’s nothing, you know, you shouldn’t take it badly if you get to, to a certain point and aren’t asked because, well, it just, you know, just doesn’t make sense at that point. So. So anyway, yeah, there’s a lot of things going on. I, uh, we have, um, what’s called a monthly course, I used to call it, uh, CHRI Live, which is a once a month deep dive, 75 to 90 minutes of just a very narrow, but very deep subject that people need to understand about, you know, uh, transitions is one of ’em.

Relevance, uh, all these things that we go, I, I go in depth and it’s basically just me discussing on a Zoom. Uh, for anybody who’s that is a subscription, that’s a whole 15 bucks a month. So for $15 a month you get an hour and a half class and, uh, that’s a bargain. Yeah. And that goes back about two and a half years.

Now we’ve got. Yeah, every month that we’ve done that, we also now have a new podcast started in January. I think they’re just saw that. Yeah, there’s seven of ’em. Just interviews with people, all sorts of people all over, even outside of the industry. I’ve got some people, uh, that are friends of mine out of the, you know, animal, world wolves, stuff like that, that are gonna be interviewed, obviously some of the best trainers in the world, just other trainers and, you know, et cetera.

So it’s, it’s been very interesting. And, uh, I’m not the host, you know, Angela, Luke and Bree Charity up in Canada. They’re the hosts of it, and they, they do a fantastic job. So it’s just an interesting thing. It’s just to get information out about stuff. That’s it. If people are interested, what’s the name of that podcast?

It’s called A Dogs Eye View. Dogs Eye View. Awesome. Oh, I like that name Spot. It’s on Spotify, apple, iTunes, whatever. It’s, I don’t know. It’ll be on YouTube. There’s on several platforms, so, yeah. Uh, they’ve, they’ve, they’re trying to release it once per week because they’ve got so many people interviewed already, and, you know, it’s just a matter of editing and stuff, so, uh, but they’re having a blast at it, and that’s just open for ’em.

So, uh, yeah. Not to be in competition with you guys or anybody else. No, it’s, it’s too late.

Yeah. Okay. Here, here, here we go. Let’s see, where’s my, uh, uh. Well, I don’t even have here. There we go. Here we go. Oh, sub. Hopefully, hopefully our listeners are capable of liking more than one podcast. I I think they’ll probably, there’s a lot of good ones out there. Yeah, there’s a lot of good ones out there.

There real are, there definitely are. Yeah. So, yeah. What else, guys? Jason, what else? Anything else you wanna cover before we start wrapping up? Uh, no. One, one sort of two, well, two, two final questions before we, uh, before we close this thing out. So you talked about going all the way back to the beginning.

You were, you’ve mentioned some pretty, um, pretty rare breeds. Uh, I think some, some folks are gonna have to go Google a few of those. Um, but, but again, I sort of classify ’em into this group. Maybe I shouldn’t, but into this group of just challenging dogs. I mean, those, those that you mentioned. Um, if you had, if you had to pick one, which one would you say is probably the most.

Challenging, um, for, for folks to deal with, um, of the ones I’ve dealt with. ’cause, you know, I’ve had Russian Harlequin Hounds, I’ve had Glen of Als, I’ve had, you know, you name it, I haven’t had all breeds obviously, but, uh, you know, probably 4,000 of the primal instinctual spits types dogs and wolves and wolf dogs and stuff like that.

About 2000 German shepherds and malano and that area, you know, turfs and those over the years, and the rest of ’em spread out. Um, and gosh, you know, of, of the, you know, back in, uh, back in 2017, uh, national Institute of Health did study, uh, Dr. O Strainer. Elaine, uh, did a study on, on genetics of, uh, canines.

Why? Because canines are the only o once again, a testament to us being a cos species and have been together for 40,000 years is, um, that canines are the only species that share over 300 diseases with humans. So, of course, NIH would want to study the genetics and the reasons, and, you know, what, how does this transfer between humans and dogs?

Why is it we, you know, what can we learn from dogs that we can help humans and vice versa? So in that study, though, the genetics, uh, genetic makeup of of dogs, it’s changed our understanding of lots of things. First of all, it’s reclassified dogs from, uh, canis familiaris to Canis lupus, Familiaris Wolves being kind as lupus.

So Familiaris now is simply a subset of wolves. That’s how close genetically they are. So. We didn’t know how close they were, but, and the break from most of us that have studied this kind of agree, somewhere in between 120, 160,000 years ago was that sister line of wolf that came off that became what we would call dogs now, proto dogs and then dogs.

So back 141,000 years ago, somewhere that sister line of genetic change. So they did a study at that time and they, uh, Dr. O trying, uh. Um, you can find it online. There’s a genetic wheel, if you will, of from wolf base and around of 161 dog breeds and the categorizations of those types of dogs, you know, terriers, mastiffs, you know, uh, hounds, sighthounds, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

Those types of dogs. And you’d be amazed at which ones are interestingly close that you would ever pick together, at least genetically. But you start seeing those clumps of dogs and you start seeing groupings of behavior too. Not just size, not just breeds, but the behaviors. And it’s very similar behaviors, you know, terrier groups, you know, you’ve got the ancient breeds.

So you’ve got, you know, Siberian Huskies, uh, Malamutes, uh, Akitas, uh, finished spits dogs, uh, uh, Las Opso, uh, different ones that are. A, what we would consider ancient breeds them. And the next three, which are the basil breeds, that 16 groups have created all dogs through mixture from that point on. So those are the base breeds.

So what it tells you is these primal instinctual ones that think like it’s 40,000 years ago versus the one we’ve created a hundred years ago, or 20 years ago for our purposes because of behaviors, size, et cetera, et cetera. So

what, what we’ve learned from that is that you can look at those and say, well, I’ve got this. I’ve never worked with this type of dog before. So go look at that wheel and see where that fits in. And you go, okay, well I’ve worked with this type, so it’s in that grouping some, so there are some similarities.

So that’s what I would recommend to all the, all the trainers is look up those types of things. And that gives you a clue as far as the. Um, hardest. Yeah. That, that depends on your personality. You know, I, I’ve had, you know, the ones that shouldn’t be here because they’re, they’re, they’re not pets probably, again, I go back to o Chaka, what they call Caucasian Shepherds.

Well, there’s three types of Caucasian shepherds. There’s a southern type that looks like a white ee, you know, uh, there’s the one that looks like the Tibetan mastiff, but bigger, you know, 250 pound males. Mm-hmm. And they will, they will take you out and, and, you know, they’re being put in. Uh, I worked with one, uh, basically just on the, on the west side of downtown Dallas in a, a very high end neighborhood that wanted to kill every dog that walked by.

Well, I. Gee, I wonder why. Right? Because that’s what it does. And so, you know, these animals, you can’t change the genetic brain of what that animal is. It’s purpose for being. And you know, I had one that I, that I worked with, I was teaching, uh, one of the courses and, uh, this was out in California years ago.

And if I hadn’t had the 10 minutes prior to with the dog and, and relating to it, uh, I made the mistake of handing the leash to someone else as I squatted down in front of the dog, closed door, and got a hand wipe and did this. And, you know, his, his head is right here. And I just kind of flipped it over.

He sniffed and I, out of the corner of my eye, saw the handler start to raise that. Leash up and I, before I could open my mouth, about a quarter of a second, very high wine right in my ear from him, and then boom, my entire arm was in his mouth. Just, just barely pressure. I just relaxed, laid it there.

Fortunately it, the handler just froze. If she’d had pulled, if she’d done anything, if she’d gasped, it would’ve been on, but instead it was just, eh, it just went dead. Second, later, he literally opened his mouth. I just calmly got up, backed through the door. My mind, my, I was smiling from ear to ear. I said, do you see that control?

That was fantastic, but if I hadn’t had that 10 minutes with him, that would’ve been a different outcome. So I enjoy those challenges. But yeah, no, that’s not a dog that you should have in this type of environment. Country at all. Yeah. He’s telling that story. I’m envisioning the, uh, scene from Alien where the sa corny weavers stand.

Some big things. Um, so, so last question. Um, can we, can we expect to see you at conference this year? Yeah, I’m hoping to be there. Awesome. Matt. He’ll be the one with a big crowd following him around all the time, just so you know. Yeah, I, I haven’t decided I, I’m driving, I don’t like to go on planes anymore.

I spent most of my life travel all over the world for work and doing stuff, uh, stuff in other countries. And, uh, so I’ll probably be driving and, uh, so that means he’ll probably have Bosch with me like I did past few years. Awesome. Um, since he is service dog, but, um, yeah, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll get with you guys later on.

All that. So unlike Matt, unlike Robert Cabral Nelson actually does from time to time provide musical talent at the conference. Hey, looking forward to it. Yeah, we’ve, we’ve got a little something planned, so Yeah. Well, maybe we can get Robert to jump in with you guys. Yeah. Have Nelson picking and Robert singing.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there you go. Awesome. Well, thank you Nelson, for taking so much time today. This was awesome. Yep. Been a pleasure. I, I enjoyed it. Thank you guys. Thanks for in inviting me. I appreciate it greatly. Yeah. I think our listeners are gonna hopefully leave this with a slightly different perspective and think about some things they do on a daily basis and hopefully up their game.

Yeah. Like, Hey guy’s, crazy. No, we’re, I’m gonna go out right now and smell a tree with my dog. There you go. Five minutes from now we’re gonna be smiling. All you gotta do is make the sound. It’s the they go. Huh? We know you had a nose. Yeah. Awesome. Well thanks for listening everybody.