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Visit blue nine.com to apply today and start building a better training business. Welcome to Dog Pro Radio. Jason, are you ready for a big day? Oh, yeah. It’s been a been a big day already. We got more ahead of us. We’ve got a big day ahead of us right now because our guest. Breeds Border Collie. So she’s gonna expect high energy the entire time.

Border Collie energy. We’ve gotta get our eyes wide and intense. This isn’t like, this isn’t a lab breeder we’re dealing with. This is someone who’s pretty intense. Well, I’ll go ahead and introduce Cindy Doan. I think a lot of our listeners probably already know who she is. Cindy has a really, really long history with the IACP, past president or list of roles.

I’m not even gonna try to go through all of them. I, I couldn’t remember ’em all. Cindy can probably go through most of those for us. Uh, she breeds border colleagues. She owns, uh, Georgia Dog Gym, which we’ll let Cindy explain all about. Um, I think I’ve covered most of it. Oh, uh, I’m sure you all saw on the news recently the all female space crew.

Cindy was part of that. You were next to Katy Perry, right? Pretty sure I saw you there. Did you? Absolutely. Was you right? I love being a space cadet in your blue jumpsuit and your hair all done. Yeah. Yeah. I felt that. Okay. I don’t wanna spread misinformation, but I was pretty sure I saw you there. Oh no.

You’ll never be canceled for saying that. You know, on the last episode, we did Spacey Today Jason came down on me for not being cool on social media. So I made sure to spend a lot of time in social media this week. So I knew what was happening and I knew the space thing was a big controversy. So I’m officially hip.

That’s all it takes. Alright, Cindy, we’re super excited to have you. We’ve had fun already before we even started filming where you were telling us some awesome duck stories, all kinds of things, so, well, yeah, you know, and I was climbing around the room a little bit, so yeah, we must be athletic at all times.

I’ll turn it over to you. Why don’t you fill us in, tell us your story, your history at the IACP. I mean, there’s so much we can talk about. And just first off, thanks for coming on and thank you for all your help to the organization over the years and where would you like to start? I have no idea where I’d like to start, but I do know that today is a beautiful day and I’m happy to be surrounded by.

You handsome men. And I wanna thank you both very much for your dedication and your commitment and your willingness to give something back to your profession. Um, I’m sure you love what you do, and knowing that you love what you do, one of the best things that you can do is figure out a way to give back to a career that gives you so much.

Uh, and that was really, I think that was my largest impetus for trying to, um, trying to join up with other people to, um, to form an organization who could maybe, um, with strength in numbers, um, impact, make an impact on the world, um, and maybe make the world a better place, um, both for people and for the dogs that we love.

So, yeah, so I dedicated, uh, I know I dedicated a full decade to volunteering for the IACP from pre-startup when it was just an idea in a few people’s head all the way through to, um, to when I was president of IECP. Um, I was, um, actually the, the first president to proceed, Martin Deley, who had been president.

All the way up to the time I got elected, and I think that was 2006. So, um, yeah, I was the first to be in the inaugural chair after Martin kept it warm for many years. So, and then lucky enough, the person after me that took over as president was the lovely amenable Mark Goldberg, and I love him dearly. He is a darling.

And I watched his whole show whenever you guys had him on, was it just last week? Last week, yep. Yeah, it’s quite enjoyable. Quite enjoyable. So I am, um, I, I am the very first member of IACP. I was the first person to write a check for membership dues, so that makes me, IACP’s very first member. So is your membership number one.

No, it isn’t Please tell me it is. No, no. You know, when you, you know, when you open a new bank account at the bank and they ask you, do you wanna order, check checks, checks, start with a thousand? What number do you wanna start with? You don’t say one, do you? Because you don’t want it to look like that. So, uh, so we applied that same philosophy to membership numbers.

We wanted to look like, you know, we’re already established up and running. Great. So my member number is 1000.

Oh, I love that. Yeah. But anyway, um, I guess, um, do you get, is it that you have questions? Uh, do you have particular question about the formation of IACP and, and what that kind of looked like? I do, I do, but just real quick, for those of you missed it, mark Goldberg was episode three, so go back and listen to it.

Absolutely. Number two, uh, for some of our younger audience, and I have to do this when I’m teaching school, those of you who do not know what checks are, those were paper things that the bank gave you. And you could write them and sign them for money for, for goods and services. So yeah, Google it. Um. Just wanted to clarify that real quick.

It’s just a, it’s, it’s a very historical thing that you don’t much know about anymore. I did, I had an employee and we were training just a beautiful young girl. I just love this girl. And so we’re training along and she’s calling me Cindy. Hey Cindy. It, somebody had given her a check and she looks, she’s looking at it and she’s points to just on the bottom and she goes, is is that the check number?

’cause you had to put the check number in the system. She’s like, is that the check number? We are, you’re aging us, you’re dating us. You know, I, I have a great hairdresser, but I will be 60 on my birthday this year. So you are talking to an old lady and an old lady. I do not have a great hairdresser. That’s why I always wear a hat because mine is just, I wish wild.

Yes. I went through a phase of hat, wearing my hair long and putting in the ponytail. Put, put the ball cap on. Yeah. And then I happened. I fell out of scheduling with my hairdresser and a couple years later I was able to catch back up with them. And I told him, I said, he said, how do you want your hair done?

I said, I just want you to make it so that I don’t look in the mirror and wanna put on the baseball hat again. If you mess it up, I’m gonna come in here with that baseball hat on. So it’s perfect. Every time. Every time. Well, back to your question. Yeah. Where were we? What you, you had asked what questions we have about, I think Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

There’s so many directions we could go. But if you were to talk about the formation of the IACP, what is something that people would not be able to glean from the internet or our website or Facebook? Something just, you know, that, that they’re not gonna find out anywhere else that, that we can tell ’em.

You have to watch this episode if you want, if you wanna know about this. Okay. So what a lot of people don’t know and um, and even members who’ve been members for a very long time is, what people don’t know is that all of the founders of the IACP, all of us founders were originally, we met and were originally members of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers.

Now, if you can answer a question for me, because I’m kind of in my own world and head right now and kind of not dealing with some of the stuff, is that organization called the Association of Professional Dog Trainers now, or am I mistaken? Nope. They rebranded twice. Nope. Okay. It’s, it was the association, um, of pet dog trainers.

Yes. About six, five or six years ago, if I’m not mistaken, they rebranded to Okay. The Association of Professional Dog Trainers. Okay. That’s what I’m saying. And within the last six months, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll find this one interesting. They have, um, rebranded to, I believe it is the International Association of Professional Dog Trainers.

Let me, that’s a name of our group. Well, it’s very close. No, it’s not. Where can I, no, sorry. It is, it is, um, association of Professional Dog Trainers International. So they put the international on the, on the end of it. I have, I didn’t, I didn’t know that. That’s news to me. A bonus. It’s a bonus. So, so, um, so we, all of the, all of the co-founders were, um.

A PD team members were just all kind of, and so like, I would have to say that a lot of us, the way that we found out about that organization was that you, you could pick up a copy of Dog Fancy Magazine back then, and in the back in the classifieds, there was an ad for it. And I just, and that’s how I found it.

I thought, well, this is interesting, and they have a conference and everything. Let me see what this is all about because we didn’t, um, information doesn’t happen the way it happens today. And so I’m thinking, well, this is, this is one way to get some information. So, uh, so part of that organization was an email discussion group.

And, uh, probably a lot of people don’t know what that is because they’ve gone to by the wayside as well. But an email discussion is pretty much, you can verify who, who’s on it and that, you know, who’s on it, is actually a real person. Um, and you have, uh, topic discussions on whatever you’re having topic discussions about.

So, um, on this discussion group, I had no idea dynamics or anything that was going on. And then I joined this discussion group to find a membership very divided and, and the controlling side of, of who was. Uh, moderating and had control of that, um, was um, very committed to the philosophy of the organization.

Alright? And so what was happening on there is that people, um, you know, long time trainers who’ve been training years and years and years very successfully, they’re joining and coming on to try to help spread the things they know, spread their knowledge, tell the things they know, share experiences, help young trainers.

And what we were experiencing there very quickly I saw it was, um, people’s messages being censored. Um, people being, uh, uh, not allowed to post for certain amounts, being benched and not allowed to post for certain amount of days or months. Um, people being kicked out of the group altogether, people being canceled, um, people being, uh, targeted, um, people’s businesses being targeted, people’s websites being targeted.

Um, all sorts of blow back and pushback for people who simply want to share their experiences and help other people and. What, what was this? The, what was the policy of this organization to begin with? And I don’t know what it is now, is if you paid your $25, you were a member with a privilege just the same as any other member.

So your voice was equal, right? So you could be, um, a mom of five kids that just happens to have a cocker spaniel, puppy and love dogs and pay $25, and your opinion was just as valid and certifiable as anybody else’s. So there was no grading or leveling of, you know, who, who is actually, um, training dogs here and who is kind of hobbyist and who doesn’t really even have their feet wet.

Um, yet it seemed like the people who were most experienced in training and had the, some of the, some of the most, uh, successful backgrounds were quickly targeted in that group. Um, and so what did we do? We moved off the reservation and created our own discussion group. And in that discussion group, we qualified our members.

You had to let us know, um, your eligibility to be there was, are you making a living at training dogs? And a lot of people weren’t. Uh, and so I. It was an amazing, wonderful discussion group. Lively people spoke their mind. People were apt to not like the things that were said, but a lot of great trainers developed out of that offshoot of a group.

But I have never, I had never seen up to that point, the tactics that I saw in this group to try to silence opinions that were not appreciated, to silence opinions that went against the narrative and against the mainstream. And if you agreed with those opinions that were canceled, you were canceled. You were made to feel shame and guilt for feeling the things you felt you were made to feel, like honestly, you were made to feel like a dog abuser, user.

So Cindy, what year was this? Because what you’re describing sounds like 2024, right? Right. When we’re talking about canceling and targeting and 19 95, 19 96, 19 97, it was, it was that period of time. It was that, and then we would have trolls and moles slip into our professional group and try to figure out what we’re talking about and say horrible things about us and, and all that.

You know, we needed to be removed from the membership because we’re terrible people. Um, and it all kind of came to a head, um, when they removed our friend Danny Thomason, who was a co-founder of IACP. He lived in Bowling Green, Kentucky, and he ran a pet store and he had a giant schnauzer, and he brought the dog to work every single day.

Well, when it was young, um, to keep it from zipping out the front door when customers would come in and out, he didn’t want it to get hit by a car because he was on Main Street, he set up a situation where he hid outside. And when the dog tried to stick his nose out the door, he had a super Soaker water gun, and he got the dog wet and they kicked him out of the group and called him a dog abuser.

And this was the most sweet, gentle person that I’d ever had the opportunity to be around. I cared a lot about Danny and I cared a lot that they could treat him in that manner. Um, so that was kind of one of the last draws to make us feel like, you know, we need to, we need a place and a place that’s not this place.

Um, and so we started thinking about creating another place, but in the meantime, what a lot of people won’t know is that our little. Block of people managed to vote. Martin Deley, our executive, longtime executive director and co-founder, we managed to elect him onto the board of A PDT. When he began asking questions about where they were getting their funding and how they were spending their funding, he was removed, voted out and removed from the board.

I had heard that before, yes. So, um, it was myself and Leah Spitzer, who, um, did a lot of talking about what to do and, um, and we talked to Martin on the phone and, and it was a very sober conversation about, um, we will stand behind you and we will work as hard as we can if you are willing to be the leader in a new organization.

Because Martin had a way of making friends with everyone saying the right things, having a great sense of humor. He was able to sell sponsorships and make business deals. And he was a great face of our organization because he was not promoting any one way of doing anything. He wanted to welcome everybody in the same space to learn together and to share with each other.

So we did not have a, um. I felt like we did not start with a group of people who were promoting any specific ideology at all. Just allowing people to think for themselves, to experience a wide diverse array of types of ways to train dogs and to discern for themselves what way works best for them and what way creates great results for them.

Um, and we wanted to move the organization forward in such a way, um, so that professional dog trainers would be the ones who would help and guide forward decisions about this industry. Not people who were not making their living and feeding their children and housing themselves on dog training. We wanted our professionals who have to earn their pay with the skills that they have and be business owners.

We wanted us to be influenced in the future of dog training in the future of the profession together. So with all of that being said, just a quick question for you. What would you say to a young, or let’s just say a new trainer who’s new to the industry and is not a member of the I-A-C-P-I? What’s your pitch?

Why should they join? What, what does this organization offer to someone for their career? This organization is what you make it. Um, I really feel like any professional out there who is making a great life for themselves in this way, that you give back some of your time by volunteering to this organization and working to protect your profession and make sure that you are able to help and guide it in the direction that you would like it to go.

Because if not you, who is it gonna be? Is it gonna be a person who has your interests in mind or your interest at heart? It, it may not be. So it takes all of us to get involved. A lot of folks will say, you know, well, I don’t know what, what would be even in it for me? But numbers mean a lot. Numbers mean things, and a lot of organizations have a lot of power because there is power in numbers.

You know yourself, that sponsorship, a lot of sponsors ask you, how many people are in your organization? How many people or potential buyers will we reach by, um, partnering with you? And the more that we can reach for someone who’s marketing a good, the more that we stand a chance to bring in money for this organization that will help us promote our beliefs and our system and the professionalism that we want.

Um, I guess I’m rambling a little bit with that, but I don’t know why you wouldn’t join a professional organization for any profession that you’re practicing in. I don’t know why you wouldn’t. So it, it would make no sense to me that, that you’re not joining IECP. I love it. That’s a great answer. So, if I can back up, uh, how many I’ve, I’ve had the benefit of, um, uh, when I became president not long ago, I, um, took it upon myself to reach out to some folks to do some research very specifically about the history of the IACP, how it started.

And, and during many of those conversations, I, I did have the opportunity to learn that it was, it was somewhat birthed. From A PDT, um, how many founding members were there for those people who, who may not know how many, how many of ’em were there? Um, and how did this whole thing get started? How many were there and how did this whole thing get started?

Um, well, we began conversations about finding a leader and Martin agreed to that. And then there were lengthy conversations about, um, how we would, oh my, how we would organize, how we would organize, what we would offer, and what would be most important for us to offer. Um, we had, um, we had Martin Deley and his wife Pat Tricker, uh, Vivian Bregman, a wonderful obedience trialing lady, um, from New Jersey.

And she was in Mensa, the organization for super, super highly intelligent people. And she ran our e she was moderator of our email list. Really fun lady. Um, we had Danny Thomason, who I told you about with the pet store and myself and Jay Stahl. Jay Stahl was a fascinating person, highly intelligent. Um, and he helped us with things like, um.

Okay. Um, the 5 0 1 C four, uh, applications, bylaws, um, and code and all those sort of, sort of details, formation details, um, and strategy. Um, super intelligent person. Uh, Mary Missouri from Illinois. Um, super talented, super experienced obedience person and just the most kind, just gentle and kind and sweet.

And, uh, Leah, Leah Spitzer was, came from Obedience Competition and she was also in Georgia. She lived across the state from me, but we spent quite a lot of time together. She lives in, um, greenback, Tennessee now. Um, and that is, um, I don’t know if you know, but that’s a little town where people who are sensitive to, uh, radio frequencies, like transmission lines and things, that’s where they live.

So she lives kind of off the grid with, with people who are sensitive to frequencies. Um, just a superbly intelligent person. Um, and so I don’t wanna leave anybody out of the originals. Um. Now we did have consulting us a great deal, but not an actual signed on paper co-founder, we consulting us a great deal was the amenable Captain Haggerty, um, to a certain degree.

Uh, Pam Green, um, to a certain degree. Tony and Chea, uh, Dick Russell, uh, Bob Meda, um,

Margo Woods. Uh, and, and there were, there were possibly a few more and they were inputting and consulting, giving us, you know, more ideas, more things. Um, they, but however, they were not the people, you know, at the actual meeting throwing in the actual, uh, member dollars. Um, so we had, uh, we had a great team.

We had a great team to start. Uh, and we just, um, you know, you just got together. We got together in person. Um, we made, um, all of the agreements, uh, about how this was gonna go. Um, Martin helped us with a great sponsor and we were off to the races. Um, we had our first original memberships. We designed an application.

Um, and, uh, at that first meeting, um, myself and Danny and Leah. Oh, Sharon Benter was also a co-founder. I’m not sure where she’s at today or if she’s well, but if she is still out there, I wish her well. Um, she is a great lady. Janine Ko, if she’s still around, I don’t know. Wonderful lady. She helped design the, the first logo that we had.

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That’s quite the, quite the list of people. You’ve got a good memory. I, I’d be saying, well, there’s that guy with the beard. And that lady, what’s like to kind along here? Is it brownish? My mind is like a steel trap. You know, they, they say we remember well sometimes the things that traumatized us,

but we, we really felt like we were, we really felt like we, we had a mission and the mission was to guide us out of this dark place that we were being led in. Because all indications to us at that point, and there were a lot of us who were really smart people, but all indications to us considering the temperature at the time and the people who were involved with this growing movement is that this was coming out as a narrative.

It was coming out from perhaps a, a think tank, definitely a university. And that it was a narrative of being imposed on us. Um, if you look into the history of the American Humane Association, they were trying to involve dog trainers in defining the word humane at the time. Um, and not accepting input from people who were not, uh, of a certain bent of training.

Um, and we had also experienced problems with, um. Certain activists turning dogs loose out of our crates at confirmation shows in South Atlanta, um, telling us that, um, that we should not subjugate dogs to this work and these jobs, that they’re sentient beans and they don’t deserve this. Um, that, um, eventually, um, they should be remanded to whichever ones of them are left, should be remanded to run free in the woods.

And that until that time they would make sure that, um, what was legalized was mandatory spay neuter programs so that we spay and neuter them all until there are none. Cindy, question with what you were just talking about. And I, I will preface this by saying this is absolutely not, this is not the view of the IACP, this is my, my personal view here, but all of these dog laws being passed and a lot of this stuff that’s, you know, are trying to be passed around the country and around the world.

My personal feeling is a lot of it is motivated and it’s funded by these groups that frankly don’t want dogs to be pets. And I feel like that’s where a lot of the money is coming from and that it’s often billed as we need to treat dogs kindly and that, you know, and that’s, those are the words that are being said.

But the funding is really, in my opinion, often coming from people who do not want dogs to be pets. And their main goal is to restrict tools, restrict crates, restrict methods, to a point where having a pet is no longer really an option because it’s too difficult to do. What are your personal thoughts on that?

And you made me think of that as you were talking about the funding from the universities and where it was coming from, turning dogs loose. That’s, that’s where my brain went. So what, what do you think about that? Well, I guess I too have to personally state that my opinions are not reflective of the opinions of ICP.

So let’s not get that confused. These are my own personal opinions and I don’t pretend to speak for the organization that I co-founded and was first member of Amazon on the board of for 10 years. But what I will say is that, um, we recently here, as a matter of fact, we got mandatory spay neuter. Okay. And what I noticed was it is traveling through the counties of Georgia and being adopted, um, almost the same policies are being adopted.

Um, it did not matter that I had people write letters. I had a letter writing campaign and my county received letters and I had. A lengthy, uh, meeting in-person, meeting with the commission chair. And regardless of the fact that I’ve been a professional dog trainer for 35 years and that, um, and that I’ve experienced quite bit of success in my career and that, um, I did, I, I am, uh, affiliated with IACP in a great way.

And I do have great voice, uh, in my, not only in my community, but I’d have to say around the world because I have people, I, I am sending dogs out of the country that I breed. So there’s influence everywhere. Um, but regardless of the amount of influence, influence that I pushed back with, um, it had no impact.

It was passing. What you need to look for is that whenever actions start happening in your county, what we have is an organization in Georgia that’s called the A CC, um, and the a CC, and it’s at A-C-A-C-C-G, um, the accg.org. Is a nonprofit. And when we do open records requests to find out who the commission is emailing for, um, advice and information and legal advice and guidance and direction, it is this nonprofit organization that, um, their stated goal is to help counties in governance.

But the A CCG is nobody that we’ve elected to do that. It’s a nonprofit organization who’s steering agenda for counties so that counties don’t have to listen to their citizens and create laws, or not create laws and ordinances that their citizens want or don’t want. So if you find that there’s something happening in your county and you feel like you’re being ignored and you’re talking to a brick wall, it’s because what’s being planned for your county is isn’t being planned by local people to come up organically.

It’s being fed down downwards. Um, starting with these organizations who seem like they are state government, but they’re nonprofits, and who do you think funds a lot of this? If you had to, maybe, you know, or if you don’t, what’s your opinion?

I can, when I find out, I can let you know, but I’m kind of hesitant to, you know, throw stones at ghosts. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and create narratives that aren’t there. But there is something coordinated happening. I will say that, um, there’s something very coordinated happening. Um, and it’s not for, it’s not for the good of our dogs or our pets.

And it seems like whatever’s being coordinated is getting a lot of monetary backing. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, you know, if you stop and think that all that many years ago, prior to the founding of IACP, that there was this, this, um, created narrative shift in our profession, an orchestrated narrative shift that was, um, almost a tidal wave of PhDs came with that.

Um,

it just strikes me as very odd because it, it wa it was definitely a, a complete and total. Shift in narrative. Um, and then all of a sudden, anyone who had great experience and great success up to that time actually doing the practical work was canceled, discounted, sat on the shelf and told you, don’t listen to this person because this person is terrible.

Um, a group of, uh, the first ICP members made their own t-shirts calling themselves Neanderthals because what they were doing was being called Neanderthal. They were called Neanderthal dog trainers, which, you know, it’s just, it’s all just so ridiculous, fellas, because there are 900,000 different ways to train a dog.

Okay? Straight up, maybe one you like, that you like to use that works good for you and that you see good results from. Maybe there’s another way that somebody else really likes and they’re able to explain it well to their clients and, and they execute it well. Um, why can’t they be allowed, um, to have their own realities, to have their own narratives and their own ways.

Um, we don’t wanna be cookie cutter. I don’t wanna be cookie cutter. For the same reason that, you know, I don’t wanna have to drag around a bag of food all my life to make my dog listen. I certainly don’t wanna have to drag around a radio controller either. That’s just me, you know? Um, but I, I, I came to IECP with the thought that why can’t we just all get along?

You know, why, why can’t I ask you some questions and watch what you’re doing? And maybe say, I dang, I didn’t think like that. Let me try that. Or why can’t I, um, you know, why can’t I show you a couple things about what I’m doing? And you say, you know, that’s, that’s about the craziest thing I’ve ever seen, Cindy.

I don’t, I don’t know what that is. I’m not doing that. And that be okay? Uh, it should be, um, we could look, we in collaboration, in collaboration, you find synergy, which lifts everybody. So, um, you know, maybe discussions are wild and wacky and kind of like a rodeo. And if you don’t have thick skin, you might get a little offended.

But I’m telling you, if you can stay in the discussion, if you can stay in the discussion, you are bound to learn something that’s gonna benefit you, you’re bound to learn it. And I, I, I, I just, um. I have learned so much. All it takes is some to open your ears and look and watch and you know, you set your judgment aside if and just, you know, when you get in the car and drive away, you can talk yourself about how you thought that was the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever sat through.

But gee whiz, you know, offer people up some respect. I’ve seen people trained. I saw a man start a border collie, a young border Collie on sheet with nothing, no string, no rope, no leash, no collar, no stick, no whip, no paddle, nothing. Alright? And it was a little crazy that first, but you know, he had a coat on and he just kind of opened his coat up to make his self look bigger and it was great.

And he starred dogs like that all the time and went on to win lots of trials. And you know, these dogs are off lead at, off lead at three quarters of a mile, mile away, whistles only, no verbals ’cause they could never hear your voice that far. And you can put them on a pinhead, anywhere you want out in the field.

Um, no tools, just yourself, your hands, and your loving heart. You talk about, you talk, you mentioned having a discussion and staying in the discussion. And, um, as much as I believe that that’s important, it has been my experience. Um, and this, maybe yours is different, but my personal experience has been, um, that the individuals or the, you know, the force free trainers, the people who wanna ban training tools, the people who have this other agenda aren’t willing to engage in any type of discussion.

Uh, they actually on some level, uh, preach, don’t interact with, as you put it earlier, the Neanderthals. Right? Don’t, um, you know, I hear the term protect the trainer, uh, protect your own mental health, don’t engage with those people, uh, you know, don’t have a discussion with them. And, you know, that in my opinion, makes it incredibly difficult to move forward.

Well, I’m sorry that you feel that way, Jason. So, um, yeah. You know, there,

there are always gonna be folks that have a hard time with all of that. I have always found that breaking bread with people in person. Audio beats any kind of, any virtual thing. I mean, like, I feel a little handicapped in talking to you guys right now because like, I can’t feel, I can’t really feel the energy coming off of you.

Just, I can’t, I, it’s hard to get a feel here, but if we were in person, oh, how much better this conversation would be because Oh, you would’ve laughed so much at my, my, uh, spaceship joke earlier. You guys would’ve been dying. It just would’ve been, it would’ve been amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it would’ve been great.

So, um, you know, I, I’m, I will tell you there have been people in my life, people in my life, that I’m convinced that because of what they’ve done in their life or what their family members have done in their life, that they know this little insight information that none of the rest of us do. And one of those dropped on me a couple of years ago, some years ago.

Cindy, this is my best advice to you. S stay off the internet. It rocks your brain. Read a book, go train dogs. Stay off the internet. It rocks your brain. And you know what, that was probably, I thought about it later. I thought, you know, that dude’s younger than me, but he sure hasn’t been through a whole lot more than I do.

And he knows things so. I don’t need to be on this internet fighting about dog training. And it’s the funniest thing. When groups first started on Facebook, I would wake up and log on my group, on my Facebook and I had been thrown into three, four or five different groups of people arguing about dog training.

I’m like, why am I here? Oh, you need to be here. You need to, you need to see this, you need to participate in this. And, uh, I’m thinking, you know, is is really good for my mental health? Am I really learning here? Am I, am I really gonna get somewhere? And, and you know yourself for all the time that you’ve spent possibly.

Maybe you haven’t, but for all the time that you’ve spent trying to defend a position online, have you ever really felt like you’ve gotten somewhere? No. I mean, you might get a little dopamine hit ’cause you slid one in or you trolled a little bit. But I, I don’t feel like we get anywhere by engaging in online disagreements and social media disagreements.

Because if you stop and calculate the amount of hours you’ve spent doing that or spectating it, how many hours is that? And how much time did you lose away from improving your skills in the time that you spent spectating that or participate in it? It’s a dramatic. Distraction. It’s a distraction that takes you away from becoming better with your skills, producing more great trained dogs, and showing the world that you have more great trained dogs.

The people that you’re gonna influence are people who can feel your energy in person, the people who you’re gonna be able to convince that what you’re doing is great and what you’re doing makes a result are the people that you’re in front of every day. Your, your students, your clients, the people that come in to take your training courses, those are the people whose minds you’re gonna change.

So when, when you stop, when you stop thinking that you’re gonna make some great headway arguing online, it, you’re only really fooling yourself and you, you are much more effective when you, we all decide if we were all to decide tomorrow that we’re turning them off, turn them off. Get them outta your head.

Do what you do, mind your business and make your business as great as it can possibly be. Break bread with like-minded people. It was always, it was always kind of a, a, um. Uh, kind of a disappointment to me that we didn’t, that the leadership of I-A-C-P-A long time ago didn’t let go of the reigns enough to decentralize the organization so that we could have grown at bottom up, meaning in person breaking bread just to drive from your home maybe an hour away.

I started, um, I called them regional groups. I probably, uh, myself and, uh, Margot Woods had groups, I believe Pam did. Um, but people, anybody could, we just announced Mikasa Casa, here’s the day. And anybody that wanted to could come bring their dog, break some bread and talk about dog training work dogs if you wanted to, and, and a lot of really close relationships and bonds were created that way.

Um, I, I still, um, care a lot about and enjoy the people who were coming to my regional groups, um, so that we could hang out and be together. Um, but just think if almost every city in, in every location. Whether it be in the state or whether it be throughout the world where we have members, if every one of them had their own small regional group, just think for America, if we had a regional group in a couple of areas of every state, um, who, who managed to involve their clientele and all the people that they had influence over, if we ever needed a phone call campaign, a letter writing campaign, um, people to show up, places to speak, at commission meetings, um, to have meetings with leaders to tell them what, this is not good legislation.

We cannot let you pass it. Um, we could volunteer. You know, all of us could have groups volunteering to create great marketing pieces and great tools for helping the rest of the public understand what’s happening and how we want to, to keep dogs in our lives and to not create legislation that stifles what’s happening and what we’re doing.

Am I, I’m gonna take a breath and let you speak Yeah. The regional groups. I, I know you’ve got some experience there, Jason, right? It’s, yeah. Little. It’s tough not to crack. It’s, it’s, it’s definitely something I think we should do more of. Mm-hmm. Uh, absolutely. Uh, they, um. They do take a little bit of work to put together, but I do, I do feel like it’s something that we should, um, probably do more of.

Again, I think to Cindy’s point, having people meet in person and get to know each other in person is way more impactful. Um, back, sort of, back to my earlier, we just have such a good time when we’re together. Um, conferences such a good time when we’re together. Um, and just to be able to be in people’s presence and, and feel their energy and have, you know, we’re all, we’re all human beings having a human experience.

Um, and I just feel like we feel each other’s humanity so much more when we’re together rather than when we’re behind a screen, you know? Yeah. Back, back to my earlier comment when I was talking about not engaging, what, what brought that to mind wasn’t even something online. It was, uh, the last time that I ever went to an A PDT conference.

Uh, it was many years ago, but man, if my experience, and I’d gone to a couple, but this was probably early two thousands and man, I just absolutely felt like I had no ability to talk, no ability to engage, and it was, it was a. It was a difficult, difficult couple days there, I’ll be honest with you, because I was trying to, trying to ask questions, trying to engage with people, and it just seemed like, because I had a little different approach that, that they weren’t gonna gimme the time of day.

Oh yeah. That, well, they know who to cancel, they know absolutely who to cancel. But the important part of all of this is, is that are, you know, are we going to be a mirror of that or are we gonna open our arms to people who, who wanna be a part of what’s going on? Um, we don’t wanna be a mirror of that. I don’t think so at all.

Um, so I think that just making sure that we, um, a lot of times maybe think about how we refine our own narrative. Um, you know, words. Words mean things, um, and words and the meanings of words can change over the years. Um, you know, the word, and I will tell you, and maybe unless you’ve been there from the start, you don’t realize this, but the word balance as we saw it when we founded the IACP is not the same meaning as what it means for IACP members today.

It’s not the same. So let’s, let’s dive in there a little bit. Could you walk us through that? Um, after Danny Thomason’s experience, um, being canceled by the ICP discussion group for the Super Soaker technique, um, for door crashing, um, he wrote an article about how training, um, how training was so much about balance and not necessarily that, um, the dog is on a teeter-totter and we want to keep the teeter-totter level.

That’s wasn’t exactly it, but that we, as we as trainers, um, in training the dog, we’re always feeling the dog and feeling the dog’s energy and doing what it takes. We wanna do what it takes to create a balance in the dog, a balance in the relationship that the dog has with the owner. Um, and that sometimes the teeter goes a little bit more this way and sometimes it goes a little bit more this way.

But we’re just looking to be fluid in those changes and understand when they need to be made so that we create balance. Um, you would never, um, you would never get a dog train a. The, the most odd thing that a person can say to me is to tell me about a punishment trainer, because that’s, you cannot, you cannot install behavior and grow behavior and proof behavior if that is the only operant that you’re using is not gonna happen.

So that is, um, so the, that person is like, um, the Sasquatch, we thought we saw it, but we never found a body. Mm-hmm. No. Because that’s just not gonna happen. So every, every trainer that I know that’s teaching a dog how to do something is, uh, using some kind of reinforcement. And by and large, if you’re not using some kind of reinforcement, you’re just not gonna get anywhere.

Sorry. And we get that a lot with new clients. They’ll say, you know, do you, are you a positive reinforcement trainer? Of course. And we’ll ask ’em like, you know, what does that, what does that mean to you? And a lot of times they don’t know, but, we’ll, tell’em like, of course we use positive. And then we’ll explain the difference, right.

That, yeah. If you’re looking for purely positive, as in you nev, we, ed would never, ever, ever correct then no, we are not that. And then we explain of course, opera conditioning to ’em, and I find 99 ti times out of a hundred. You give that little speech and they’re like, oh yeah, that’s what I want. That makes sense.

Yeah. But, and I, you know, if when I try to give that speech this, my clients just fall asleep. They’re like, just do what you know how to do, Cindy. We’re gonna have fun. Well, when someone comes in as a referral, they don’t need or want any of that. Right, because they’re, when someone’s a referral. Yeah.

They’re like, we heard, we heard you’re good. Let’s do this, let’s do this. You know, it’s the ones that have been doing a lot of online research and aren’t sure who they’re dealing with. And, you know, my pat response. So, you know, I, um, the most fun, the most fun thing that I do is I teach the basic training group class.

And that is 10 tons of fun for me because, you know, it’s just sort of like, because it’s the person who, I got a dog, I gotta do something. Uh, uh, somebody’s told me that this is a great class and I’m coming. So you get, you just get, a lot of times you just get brand new people and you’re giving them that first time exposure to what, what it’s like, you know, to go to class and to teach and train your dog.

So, um, so. It gives me a, a great deal of, so I take a great deal of leeway, um, in my classes, and I tell people flat, straight up, you all are the authority of your own opinions, right? And what you all, I, I said, you know, as long as you don’t bring the dog to class on a, um, on a retractable leash, you bring the dog on whatever you think you need to bring the dog on.

Um, but, um, the reason that you paid me all this money is because you wanna know what my professional opinion is. So I am, I am obligated because of our arrangement to give you my professional opinion. However, because you’re the authority of your own opinion and you know your dog better than I do, you do what you feel like you need to do with your dog.

What you might find is that the people who are doing what I suggest are, um, making progress a little faster. But if you have something that you like, you just go right ahead, be my guest. And of course, this class, they pay a one time fee and then they can repeat as many times they want to without having to pay again.

So, you know, there are people who come, um, and they want to, they definitely want to try out. The way they feel like they wanna do it. And, and I’m really open to that. You give it a shot. Um, and then, you know, sometimes they’re quite happy with the job they did and sometimes they start, um, asking about equipment and um, and they kind of fall into doing, ’cause they see the other dogs doing really well.

And so they’ll adopt some other things that I recommend and, and off we go to the races. Um, but I, I don’t demand that the people that come to my class train the way I tell ’em to train. They kind of do what they wanna do. Um, but it’s, and it’s interesting too that I get, um, I get a number of experienced competitors come to my classes who’ve already got the basic foundations on their dog.

They’re just coming to work against distractions. So they already know what they wanna do when they’re doing it. And I think that’s great too. So that’s just kind of my approach, um, because, you know, free will and all if you, you, if you want you, you are welcome to come to, if you wanna give me the money for class, you’re welcome to come to class and, and, and just sit and watch and, and do whatever you wanna do because we’re having fun anyway.

If you like, if you need a little action on Thursday night and you wanna come watch dogs get trained, come on down and uh, we’ll be happy to have you. But the more the merrier. So else. Well, I feel like this is, this is a good segue to let’s chat about your business. So you do a lot of things. You run a board and a training facility, right?

So, um, the Georgia Dog Gym, so the Georgia Dog Gym is kind of, um, the next iteration of the business that I was running when I first moved here to Rome, Georgia. Um, we moved here to get more room and more space because the training that I was doing, um, we kind of outgrew the place that we had, um, where we were living.

So we had to move and build. I wanted to build a proper, a proper dog kennel for the dogs I was bringing in to, to keep and to train. So, um, but then, um, but then, you know, there was a thing called MapQuest back then, and then all of a sudden people knew exactly where you were and they liked to come see me about eight o’clock in the morning when, um, we’re fixing french toast and eggs in our pajamas.

And, uh, so, um, so it just kind of made sense, um, just to kind of move into a facility at the time that just kind of made sense. And, um, and kind of one of the reasons that it made sense is, is that, um. I probably haven’t sh I, there’s very few people that I really share this with, but around about, um, the year 2000, um, I was having some issues and I was diagnosed with, um, an immune-mediated condition called, they call it now axial spondylitis, but it’s a, an immune-mediated disorder, and it, it, um, it really, it destroys your spine.

And so when I was diagnosed, um, the doctor told me that, um, because of, um, what it looked like and what he thought the progression of it would be, he said, uh, I predict you’ll be unable to walk and in a wheelchair in 10 years. Oh man. Yeah. So that kind of, that kind of changes things for you really quickly.

So, so, um, yeah, so for, um, for a lot of years I just kind of, um, I wanted to be, um, top speed, top gear doing all I could do, uh, for as long as I could do it. I wanted that. But yet at the same time, the condition kind of, um, it’s kind of like, um. Being drowned by a very large man that jumps in the pool after you, ’cause I’d be going swim along all just great, wonderful Peach King.

And then next thing you know, boom, head under the water just about to drown. So, um, so there are times when, um, you’re like, wow, she’s superwoman. I would do canine biathlon, which is an obstacle course that you and your dog do together. Um, but there were a lot of it, it is a chronic pain disorder. So pain, um, began to be the constant companion.

But anyway, um, I’m still walking and I’m still jogging and I’m still doing stuff and, um, that’s awesome. Yes, it is awesome. I have managed to, to cheat the wheelchair so far so good. Um, but what that, what comes with that is just, um, a learning how to pace yourself that I’m not Superman and I can’t do everything.

So what I do know is that it’s very difficult at this point physically to teach like an entire weekend seminar That’s like a no, that, that just can’t happen. Um, so I can do the, the half day thing works great. Um, half days for a couple of days works great. Um. Full day is a little bit like, puts you a little bit on the tt.

I’m gonna have to do a little bit of recovery work after this, but, um, it’s, it’s gone pretty, pretty good. Um, in 2019, um, right before I was gonna do the canine biathlon, I was having, um, these spasms that make you feel like you’re gonna turn it into the werewolf. It was not good. And so right before the day before the race, I went and got like a dozen of these little shots.

I don’t know, I guess there’s some kind to deaden something, but I got a dozen shots in my back and I ran the biathlon. And, uh, and then I went for an MRI and I have like four bulging discs, four degenerated discs, a spinal stenosis in a couple of places. So like, it’s not like crunchy, falling apart. But, uh, so after that I decided, after that MRI, I decided, you know, maybe I’ll try a little something different.

And it just kind of coincided with the pandemic. And, um, so I decided to like kick every bit of imaginable stress outta my life and good for you. And I, um, and. I added into my life, I kept three puppies and my goal was to qualify at least one of them for the national finals in nursery. By the time before, they were not eligible anymore.

And while, um, one washed out, one makes a great farm dog and one I did qualify, but it was the year that I didn’t renew my U-S-B-C-H-A membership.

But it did happen. Um, but during the time of training, three young sheep dogs, um, that’s every day, every morning you roll out, put your shoes on, and you’re walking. It’s a lot of walking up the hill, down the hill, walking backward, walking sideways, jogging a little bit. Um, and that, that time spin in 2020 really strengthened me.

And, um, and I, and I, um, made a few dietary changes. And then I cha I, I, I don’t take any prescription medicine anymore. I haven’t since 2020, so no more prescriptions for me. Um, no more of head fog from pain meds or anything like that. So I’m totally off that. Um, and managing, um, managing things quite well.

Just quite well. So, um, so because of this chronic sort of thing, um, I’m not the person who can launch off these big business plans and, um, and work 16, 18 hour days over and over and over again. So the dog gym was a way to hire a staff and delegate a lot of the responsibility that I had. And so I hired the staff.

Um, and so we had boarding doggy daycare and then training. And I, um, I did, um, a great deal of the training classes for a while until, um, I delegated those out. I came to a point where really keeping a board and trained schedule, it’s, that’s a no, um, training very large unruly dogs is a no training, a really short dog that I have to bend over to do lessons with every day.

But honestly, that’d be a no. So I have trainers who do a lot of that stuff, but I still do the, I still do behavior consults. Um, uh, I do some, uh, sheep dog training lessons with people who want to train the dog, uh, to herd sheep, uh, mainly border colleagues because I, I, I am not a trainer of loose side herding dogs.

Um, and then, um, I do some workshops, seminars, um, coaching, you know, like coaching for, um. For athletes coaching for like agility handlers and things like that. Men mental management, mental coaching, teaching about those things. Um, and uh, and that’s sort of me. Yeah, there’s a a lot there. I’ll tell you what, to prep for this interview, I watched some serious YouTube shorts on Border Collies, rounding up sheep.

And man, I got sucked in deep. I, I was like, I’m gonna watch a couple, see if I can find some of Cindy. And then I got on Sean, the sheep guy, I think he’s called someone. I love him. Oh my gosh. And then his accent. I wanna live where he lives ’cause it’s so beautiful there. It’s just the most gorgeous ever.

And he just rides that four wheeler and sets something one off after those sheep. And he’s just, have you seen that guy Jason? He’s a, I have sweet guy. He’s such a sweet guy. And I don’t, the little information, it’s amazing that he gives, he gives great information to pet people about dogs and he’s just, he’s just a lovely guy.

Just a lovely guy. And you watched that dog work? I watched one. Where he’s on a four-wheeler and he stops and he sends the dog off and it rounds up all these sheep. She, you know, sends him into a pen somewhere and super fast. Then it comes back, jumps on the four-wheeler, then a cow of some sort comes up and the dog’s like barking at that thing and like to chase it away.

Then it’s like, looks to him and his, the dog’s eyes get soft again and it looks back at the cow and it’s like all of a sudden laser eye and really intense. And I think I might have watched every sh YouTube, uh, short. That guy has, oh, he’s just one after another. He just makes me to see his content. Just makes me smile.

He is just such a, just such a nice young man. I, I, and he does a good job. Um, is he well known in the field or is it just, is he just a YouTube guy or is he pretty, pretty good. Great at what he does? He’s just, he’s just a viral person. He’s, he’s okay all over TikTok. He’s just, he’s just a viral person. He makes great videos and he’s, um, I, I, I think that’s kind of how he’s known.

There’s an interesting, um, there’s, there’s a girl who has a number of my. Acquire border college from me, and she is a TikTok influencer. Not gonna say who it is, but she has like million and a half followers. And, um, and she’s so kind, um, because she does not, she speaks kindly of me, but she, yet she does not reveal my identity to all those people.

I just don’t think I could handle that. So she is, she’s very kind. But, um, he has, um, Sean has great following, but no, um, in the, if we’re talking about, um, the sheep dog border, the border collie herding world, um, there are a list of, um, names of renowned, um, very successful, um, trainers and trialers of, and, and a rich history of people who train trial and breed.

And it, and I just love it. I, I just think it’s great and I, I like going to, to see these people and see these people run their dogs and, and just, um, hang out and, and see the things they say. Um, and just their ways. It’s, it’s great. It’s, um, you know, it’s just that.

Saw the earth agriculture coming from a farm and um, just lots of common sense. And these people gain, um, such beautiful control over these dogs, um, with very few, very few tools. And a lot of it to them is just, um, it, it’s just common sense. Um, and, and I just find it to be very beautiful. It, it is very different from what I do.

That’s for sure. I told you before we jumped on, I work with pet dogs and solving a lot of behavioral issues and I’m, but I’m always amazed when I see someone with a border colleague running. It’s something I know very little about and you watch those dogs work and it is just amazing. Yeah. What they can do.

And yeah, so when I get a client with a border Collie, I’m always like, what? Why did you get a border colleague? ’cause most of my clients, when they get ’em, they’re not getting them to work. And I had an acquaintance reach out maybe a year ago and they said, we’re getting a dog, we’re getting a border collie.

And I said, no, no, no, no, no. Don’t get a border Collie. And I gave them like nine other breeds to get and they didn’t listen to me. They got a border collie and I had to eat my words because they got the softest, most laid back gentle border collie ever. And I’ve been training it and the dog’s like absolutely perfect.

And I told ’em like, don’t don’t think your next border collie’s gonna be like this. And don’t get mad at me if your next one’s crazy. Because this one is like, it’s the, it’s the just the most gentle, soft border collie ever. But usually the ones I get with clients are, are nuts. So they’re bred to work and they are not working well.

They, you know, the job is important, but I have to say that they’re, um, they’re like snowflakes just like any other dog. Some of them are gonna be tough and hard and, um, just hard chargers and some of them, um, I’ve had a few that were just complete couch potatoes until it’s time to work. They didn’t, they, they were not busy at all.

They just were, um, nearly comatose until you ask them to do something and then they would do it quite well. Um, but, uh, it, you know, what you are doing, what you’re doing is, um, is maybe more similar than you think to, to what they’re doing. Because really I tend to think of, I tend to think of what, what we all do is we are all, um, orchestrating, channeling, guiding energy.

We’re all working with energy, right?

When the, the most amazing thing that I found about my work in, in the Sheep herding is that it is a lot of things that tie back to energy work. Um, the sheep who understand about dogs, they can feel a dog come out into the pasture before they can see it, and they group up together. Um, and what we’re doing with the sheep herding really is, um, we’re moving.

It’s kinda like we’re using the dog to move that ball of energy from one place to the other.

Do you,

do you, do you have the concept of teaching a dog distance control by concentric circles? If I can control you at six feet, then I’ll try at 15 feet and then I’ll try at 30 feet. Well, if you train a dog to come to you to recall from 10 feet away, will he immediately recall to you from a hundred yards away?

Maybe not. But that all has to do with your sphere of influence, which I feel has to do with energy. You’ve gotta build that sphere of influence. And so what you have with a herd of sheep is, is you have one ball of energy that’s reacting to that dog, which is another ball of energy, and also to you, and the dog is reacting to you.

If I tell the dog to back away from the sheep, the dog is not then feeling the sheep’s energy, the dog is feeling my energy of a push to push him back away. If the dog is too close to the sheep, sheep panic, they might split up, they might run away. They might go really fast, a lot faster. But if you can find the sweet spot that is some concentric circles away from the sheep, if the dog moves calmly, the sheep will move almost single file, calm, yawning, and eating along the way.

They never get too excited. All of this is conducting energy. You raise and lower your voice right when you praise a dog. Dick Russell always said, praise should come from out your heart, down your arm, all the way to your fingertips when you pet the dog, that the love should be shown in your voice when you praise the dog, that great praise, it’s genuine and it’s heartfelt and you feel the emotion when you give it to the dog.

That’s the best when you’re praising, when you, I think that’s a misunder, or no, I don’t wanna say misunderstood, but a very often not understood concept. How important the way you praise is and what you were talking about with, I don’t hear about energy talked much in dog training. I feel like it should be talked about more, but I, I find a lot of new trainers don’t have it.

And Jason, you and I have talked about this, right, like, you know, for people to get the tone, the energy, and I feel like a lot of new trainers, that’s their biggest struggle is learning the energy and learning how to connect. Yeah. So for that reason, we actually, I don’t train with treats very much. Not because I’m opposed to, you know, using food, but my belief is if you can motivate a dog with praise and with your body language, the connection you’re gonna have is gonna blow everything else out of the water because you have the right energy.

And it’s hard and it can’t be done with every dog, but the vast majority it can. And if you struggle through that and you figure it out, you come out the other side. A much better trainer. Well, my, um, my original mentor in dog training, um, he handed me a copy of Bill Keeler book, and I never used, I never used treats to train until I started experimenting with some of that.

When I joined the A PDT and was seeing this information about adding food into your training, prior to that, I, gosh, it was hundreds of dogs that I trained. Um, what they didn’t, they didn’t get tree rewards. They got genuine praise. So, you know, people, um, people don’t stick on this notion of energy. It, and I didn’t either.

It’s almost like you, yeah. Every trip around the sun, you make you bump into something else that makes a connection for a connection that you had in the past. Um, so the, so, but you know, you can walk into a room, can you walk into a room and feel the energy of it? Um, when you’re giving a presentation, can you feel when you’re making a connection with your audience, uh, and when you’re losing them when they’re not, all of that is a, a feeling, a sensation of energy.

Can you. Can you feel a person, like a client walks in with a dog and they’re talking to you? Can you feel them? Sometimes the energy that they’re, um, a lot of times the energy that I feel with somebody that comes to me with a problem, I feel them. And it’s, um, it can be a little bit, it feels like static or, or frantic or anxious.

Um, and I, I can feel that it feels very sped up. Um, blood rep respirations and a lot of blinking and not a lot of breathing, but I can feel that as energy. And so when you are feeling energy, then you know that you’ve gotta meet that energy. And, but you’ve gotta figure out what energy you meet that with.

So the same can be said for trying to deal with dogs that we find to be, or would classify to be high energy or highly aroused or very active. Or what is this they call dogs? Uh, what do they, uh, when you, when they see a dog in a bar? Oh, reactive. Reactive. That’s the big new word. Oh, come on. If you’re breathing oxygen, I would hope that you could react to your environment.

Okay. It is called. So, so, yeah. Um, I, so I’m very much into, um, making connections about this, this notion of, or this issue of energy because it, it also channels back to part of the reason, um, why dog sports have fascinated me so much is because not only did I want to learn how these people train for all these different things that they do, which is when these people are fascinating, the things that they think of and come up with an event that are just ingenious.

But it is, um, to do with,

um, trying to understand what, what are the characteristics of a great performance? What gets you that clean run? What gets you that dropless routine? What gets you, um, a qualifying score? What, what are the components of that? And especially, um, in sports where things are happening faster than you can, faster than a normal person can think.

You know, time sports, um, but to understand what makes, what has to happen in order to get to that great performance, um, and what we know in sports like agility and Frisbee disc, as they call it, the zen, the zen moment. The zen it and what it feels like and the greatest performance that you’ll have with a dog is, is the most rewarding feeling.

It’s just, oh my gosh. It’s like getting a hit of some really good drugs because yes, and I, and I’m, I wanted to believe that,

that we’re talking about energy, um, and I wanna believe that we’re talking about it in terms of this word resonance. Have you ever felt like the work that you were doing with a dog, that the two of you are resonating, you’re working a dog and he’s like loving the work and you’re really getting a lot out of him, and he’s just like, he leans in to do it even better.

He is like, I love you, dad. I’m gonna do this even better for you. Watch this. Um, if you’ve ever felt that, it is just the most rewarding feeling you’ll ever feel. And a lot of times the first time you feel that resonant moment, um, you. Well, the first time I feel it with a dog, usually I end up giving the wrong command and crapping out the run just because it excites me in that moment so much like, ah, we did it, and then damn, we’re gone.

So, um, but just looking at, um, the, how people, uh, orchestrate, um, energy levels in a dog to, um, to a way that they find resonance in performance where it is accelerated to a great degree, I guess, for lack of better words. So I’m all about thinking about,

um, energy level and resonance and just looking at all kinds of concepts that, um, that are meaningful in that way. So, my gosh, so many things. Um, this, uh, um, if you’ve ever run into any work by like Rupert Shel, Drake, um, he talks about, actually wrote a book about how dogs know you’re coming home, even though they don’t actually hear you.

Um, how does, how did the dogs know you’re coming home? Um, and he, um, he has some interesting, interesting work out, um. And, uh, it’s about, it’s called Morphic Resonance. Um, and then looking at things like some things to do with math, like Fibonacci sequence and, um, vortex math is fascinating. Um,

math is, math is, can you explain that phrase? I have literally never heard the phrase vortex math. What is vortex? What is that? Vortex Math. You should write it down. And she, you should go search on it and watch some videos of it. Vortex Math is a way of calculating math where your primary numbers are in a circle, kind of like a clock pattern.

Um, and it shows you how with Vortex Math, you’re, you’re really, the math is creating energy. The math is creating certain, um, magnetism and frequency for you based on the sequence that it has. It’s very, numbers of math are very fascinating and, and very interesting. Um, you know, I, I find, um, I. You know, even thinking about things like chaos theory, uh, because all with all chaos is, is you will eventually get order out of it because it can only be chaotic for so long before order is restored.

So I, you know, I think about that when I’m training my absolutely wild little border collie puppy who’s just diving in on the sheep and making my life crazy. I’m thinking this is gonna be chaotic right now, but boy, when we sort ourselves out, it’s gonna be just beautiful, beautiful, calm, measured and controlled.

Um, is, yeah. Chaos theory. I know a little bit about from Dr. Ian Malcolm. Yeah. One of my, one of my idols in Jurassic Park. He, uh, yeah. Remember he talked about chaos theory a lot. Yeah. And then, um, I was looking, um, I wanted to just refresh my memory the other day about the observer effect. Um, that’s in your, in, in, um, physics.

Um, oh, that sounds like string theory. Well, well, it is. That matter. When observe changes its behavior, it stays the same when you’re, so it’s kinda like that hole. If a tree fell in the woods, did it, did anybody hear it? And maybe it didn’t make a noise if nobody was there to observe that it fell. It was all these little wild things that just, um.

Mandelbrot sets. Have you looked at Mandelbrot sets? That’s beautiful math that talks about, um, life as, um, as its cycles. It’s that life is a cycle. You know, like winter, spring, summer, fall. We’re always going to get that cycle, the cycle of birth and death and, and that we’re just kind of like on this spinning wheel.

And every time you cycle around, you might pick up something new if you’re paying attention. It’s kind of, Jason, we’ve got some learning to do. We need to become experts and all of this. Oh, so plants talk, plants communicate with each other. Um, that’s an interesting little bit to, um, to talk about and, and that, um, the little experiments about setting two plants out and talking nice to one and ugly to the other causes the one you talk ugly to, to die.

That’s fascinating. And, um, Dr. Emoto’s work on, um, water and, uh, water having memories. Um, water crystals freezing differently when they’re, when they’re, um, exposed to different types of music. Um, and, uh. And then, um, this whole, the plants communicating with each other is fascinating. Um, and the plants, um, I forget that guy’s name, but he was doing some, uh, experiments on the plants, communicating with each other, but he had some sort of setup where the plant reacted when he got his lunch out and took a bite of the lunch, the, it, the recording on the plant reacted to that.

Just really odd. I feel like this is your wheelhouse. Jason. You’re a plant guy. I, I can be a plant guy. Well, Cindy. F for the record. Don’t let Jason sell himself short. I walked through Savannah, Georgia with him, and every plant he is like, oh, that, that’s a, this, this one, that’s a, that grows about 22 feet tall.

Evergreen in this climate. It’s good to zone six B. Aw. Like everything. I was making all that stuff up. Aw, listen to you. Listen to you. But yeah, so when you think about, you know, if plants are in, are able to do these things and we’re so interested in them, um, and you think about, we’ve done all this research with our animals and, and research done on dogs.

I mean, the things that we understand that dogs understand now based on some of the research that we’ve done, it’s just really freaking fascinating. Um, and there’s, you see that lady on TikTok, that she’s got this little language system for her dog and it steps on these buttons that say words. That’s some crazy stuff.

Um, but you know what would be cool is if we had some kind of arm of IACP that was able to put together, um, intelligent research because I read the whole textbook. I spent a pile of money to read the whole textbook on canine cognition research and what I kept coming up with, reading every single study as I flipped through the page, it would be like, boy, this study would’ve been a whole lot better.

Put together had they had intelligent experience, hands-on dog trainers creating these things, who understood what a dog was? Because really after I spent all the money on the canine cognition book and read all the articles, um, and was so excited about it, what I found was that, um, by and large, in their experiments, the dogs that did best were the dogs who had great homes with people who spent a lot of time with them and really cared about ’em.

And the shelter dogs didn’t do hardly anything, but only because they had no connection. They were not connected to humans. Um, there was no energy, there was no energy share and there was no connection. Um, but you know, if you’ve, if you’ve got a dog where you can yawn and look at them and they yawn too, gee, you know, you really got a dog that’s tuning into you and what you’re doing.

That’s kind of crazy. Um, so. It’d be cool if we had a part of I-I-E-C-P who could create great research for us, but I really kind of think that we need to stick together and think about how increasing the membership Yes, absolutely. And, um, continue it on, um, making sure that we preserve our ability legally to do the things that we do.

That’s number two. Um, and, and increasing, trying to figure out ways to increase the voice so that our voice does have an impact. Um, maybe, maybe not only in the legislative process, but at the ballot box. Mm-hmm. And to that point, Cindy, when you, you said, mentioned that you know, size of the organization, in my opinion, one of the biggest ways to have more reach and more influence is for the size of the organization to continue to grow.

And we’re hoping to reach a lot of trainers that don’t understand what’s going on or don’t, haven’t paid attention to what’s going on in the industry or the world. And for them to realize signing up for the IACP is going to make a difference. Every additional member makes a difference, not just their dues, but having another member of the group gives the group more stature to, you know, to be involved in these conversations.

Yeah. Well, we would like to it, I would like to keep as many professionals close together as part of the IACP as possible. I really would. Um, however, you know,

we are a group of folks who are most definitely individuals, and that’s probably why we do what we do and not subscribe to, uh, you need to go get on at the factory when you’re 18 years old, so you can, they can give you a good retirement. You, you can go get on at the power company for 30 years so they can suck the life outta you and, you know, take all your taxes from you.

You know, we’re kind of pioneers. We kind of, um, kick that system in the butt and don’t participate in it. And we’re entrepreneurs and we’re business owners and we’re innovators, um, and we’re willing to go the extra mile to build a business and do a business. But I’m telling you, we need somebody standing up for us.

We need to stand up for ourselves and we need a group standing up for us that gives us reach and platform so that we can protect our rights to do what we do. It’s terribly expensive to run a business these days, um, when you have to run a payroll and pay to pay your people

that, that’s hard and it’s not right. Um, and so I feel like, you know, not only are we, um. Trying to protect our right to be here. But I really think that we need to, um, to be able to protect and support our ability to run businesses well and retain our rights and, and not, not be over overwhelmed and overburdened with reg regulation.

Um, I do feel like we, it’s important that we po police our own and, um, and call out, uh, inappropriate things when, when we see it. Um, but I do think that, um, we, we want to have an attitude that we are entrepreneurs and business owners and, and we do have, um, we do have needs and, and we do, um,

we do need to stick together to make sure that we can continue to practice and, and run businesses that we love. Um, and I’m telling you, if, if you were to spend your at liberty time, instead of opening your phone and scrolling, if you spent your at liberty time trying to innovate something. Build something, make something better, do something better.

You’re in a far better position than arguing with people whose minds you’ll never change. You. There are people whose minds you’re never gonna change. I believe that the minds we do change are the minds we change with in-person relationships. Um, because we can show our humanity, um, we can embrace, um, we can set aside our sometimes large egos, um, and try to listen to understand instead of listening to fight and respond in ways, um, that we feel like will give us a one up in a claim situation, you wanna be sure you have the right coverage Business.

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Everything is better in person. Yes. Agreed with you on that? Yes, for sure. Yes, but the only time I’ll. Argue online is I’ll go to Jason’s Highland canine page of course, and troll them about how you shouldn’t train police dogs and how terrible that is. But that, that’s the only time I’ll spend a couple hours fighting with people online.

I think you’re the president of an entire club over there. Speaking, speaking of being in person, um, Cindy, you, you brought up earlier, uh, conference as an opportunity to be in person. Yeah. Um, I want to take us back just a minute. So I’m sure you were there for the first conference, right? Absolutely. What, what, what, what was that like and how’s that different than what we see today?

Well, you know, we were giddy with excitement. We were just so excited to be together and for it finally to happen. Um, and we all trickled in and arrived and we missed each other from the time we had seen each other. So there was a lot of hugs all around. Um, heard about that. Yeah. And we, you know, we just got together and whoever could, you know, stuff a bag or put a workbook together or sort these cards or get these name tags or hang this banner or move these chairs, we just jumped in, um, and, and made it happen.

And then. You know, it was really, we had the attendance role of the people who were coming. So they weren’t talking about, oh, look who’s coming, check this out. Oh, this person’s coming. Oh, we’re so excited to see this person. And because most of the people at the, I would say all of the people at the first conference, except for maybe a couple of vendors, we were all internet friends, or at least internet discussions of things with some hot and heavy discussion going on.

Um, but we were all, you know, with, it was like a little club that we all already knew each other, you know, and so, and we invite our speakers in. So a lot of it was, um, we liked having our speakers, but I think what we liked more on top of that is just yaking with each other, you know, sharing information with each other and talking and, um, making plans for whether the things we’re gonna do.

So it was, it, it was a, it was a group of friendly people. Um, and as people showed up, um, I remember a young lady. Who showed up with a dog that, and I think she didn’t anticipate that it was gonna have a hard time in the venue, but I think I remember that like Big George stepped right up to the plate and he came and a couple of other people and they just talked to her about her dog and um, gave her some advice and help.

And then we’re off. She’s great, we’re off to the races. And then she just made a great group of friends because she showed up. Um, so that was kinda the vibe. Um, you know, there was locked by the social time music. What year was that? Music and dancing. Oh, my, the very first ICP conference.

I would have to say

maybe the year 2000 or 2001 or, because I remember our very first sit down was 1997 and it took us a little bit to get conference together. It could have been 1999. I just not quite remember.

Um. Here we are 25 years later, and yes, still working on conference. Yeah, we’re working on conference. You gotta love it. Um, and speaking of that, we have an amazing speaker coming. You can’t, you can’t, uh, release too many details, but we’re excited. We’ve been sworn to secrecy, by the way. We can’t really, uh, spill the secrets of what you’re gonna talk about, but we’re, well, the title on the titles on the website, all the titles on the website, we’re gonna, we’re gonna have a good time because I think probably every time I have done a presentation for ICP conference, it’s been about something that was a good time.

Um, the last time I spoke was, I wanna say, well, I did that panel. I got a funny story. So I did this panel and Nelson Nelson Hodges was on it. And so the panel’s going, people are asking questions and um, for some, I guess there people were standing around the edges of the room, but somebody accidentally leaned against the light switch and turned the lights off during the panel presentation.

And, and I, and I went, I took my opportunity. I went, Nelson, stop. And so the lights came on. His little face was so red, red.

It was hysterical. I love my, I love my nails and I always have to hold his hand when I see him, but that was pretty funny. So, yeah. Um, but before that I did a free, uh, a, a freestyle dance. I did. And so we did music matching with the dogs and we danced around and it was a great, everybody loved it. I told everybody, I said, you know, you, you’re dog trainers tend to squinch their butt, cheeks up a little too much.

If you just relax, you’ll have a much better time. Just relax. It’s not that big of a deal in the whole scheme of things, in the whole scheme of life really isn’t that big of a deal. So freestyle dance. And then I did one about jumping, teaching your dog about, I guess it was like agility, jumping drills.

And we did a little bit about Frisbee for, for one of the things I did. And then,

oh, and then another one I did agility. So I, I just agility with obstacles. I did, um, when we did the comeback to HU Texas after we’ve been gone for a long time, that was a lot of fun. So, yes. So you’ve, you’ve been involved in a lot of different competition sports. Yes. Um, yes. And, um, you know, when I first, my first training, I worked for, um, the largest in-home dog training company at that time in Atlanta, Georgia.

And, um, uh, uh, I’m very grateful for that opportunity because, uh, the man that I worked for, he ran, um, he ran a great solid business model. Um, he was, uh, a veteran of the Vietnam War. He was a scout dog handler in the Vietnam War. Um, but anyway, he ran a, he ran a, a great business model and he taught me all aspects of it, not just mentoring me how to train dogs.

Um, and so that was, was where I cut my teeth on all training and, uh, and I just got to a place where I wanted to learn about something else other than he’ll sit down, stay, come, go to your place, leave a drop at, you know, stop jumping, blah. And so I had, um, at the time I had a friend and she just happened to bump into somebody who lives in Georgia, who was many times on the agility world team for a KC.

She happened to meet him. She’s like, oh my God, you never believe it. I met this guy, you gotta come to his house. He said, we could come over and he’s got all this agility stuff. He said, teach us how to do it. And he is got border colleagues. And so, um, so that was my entree into dog agility. Um, and, and I became very, very addicted to that sport, only because, um, there are innumerable ways that you can arrange agility obstacles to make a course.

And that you, you don’t know what you’re gonna do until you get there that day. So you just have to have a skill tool sack. You have to have some skills, some handling, and the ability to, uh, think fast and memorize things at the drop of a hat and, and do it real well. So I love that. Um, and I did that until, um, I one IECP conference.

I told them that we should have, um, uh, somebody to teach Frisbee. And so they said, yeah, that’s great. Well, the guy that they asked to do it, who lived local to Texas, um, he refused because of the whole purely positive argument. He’s like, no, I’ll never come to your, to your organization to teach anything.

So we invited, uh, Melissa Heater, who lives in the state, but we didn’t know each other at the time, but we met each other at the conference and she fell in love with my dog. She thought I was a great Frisbee dog. So she became my mentor for learning Frisbee disc. And then she wanted me to become a judge.

And then I, most, she wanted me to be on the, these, uh, it’s a PR team for Purina. She was involved with Purina. She wanted me to be on the traveling Purina roadshow. And I just told her that, um, I’m just not healthy enough to travel like that. I just, she was driving a van from the west coast to the east coast about once a month.

And I, I, I just, no, I can’t do that. Um, but she, she, she was a great person and she taught me about the Frisbee disc and you know, it’s just one thing morphed into the neck. She just meet people. Um, I thought, you know, my dog loves to swim and jump in this pond. And finally there was a facility here in Georgia that opened up a dog diving pool.

And, um, then they were gonna teach a class. I’m like, I’m gonna go take that class. And I did. And. Like two weeks into it, my dog jumped 25 feet and my teacher said, you’re going to Asheville to the bell share. And so I did, and the dog won. So, so we were quick, quickly hooked on that sport, but it just kind of, and then I wanted to learn how to do flyball, so I let the Flyball team come practice at the dog gym and I got my dog on the Flyball team.

And so, um, and, and so then I ended up with four dogs on the Flyball team. And that was the most fun ever. Like you could pour yourself into a cup on the Monday after a flyball, uh, flyball tournament. You know, it’s rote behavior. So it’s not like you’re having to handle the dog. The dog knows what to do.

It’s rote behavior, re four team relay racing. And so, but the great part of it is in the strategy of the timing. And that’s what I loved about it, because it’s how far back till you start your dog so that you can pass without faulting, but pass so close that you’re not taking it up any time. So it was the lights and the speed that I loved and the strategy of what team to put together and how far back is your dog and when are you gonna release it?

And, ah, so much fun. Just like a huge adrenaline dump. I love that. But so, yeah. And then the sheep herding is something that I’ve. Picked at for years, um, especially breed and Border collies. I feel like it’s important with working line Border Collies that they’re, that you are producing them, that you’re producing from stock that actually works cheap and knows how to do that.

Um, uh, because two generations away from herding sheep and a border colly pup will not have eye anymore. They will lose the, they lose the stair of the border. Colly two generations away from working sheep. So that’s why you might see a big division or difference between working line versus confirmation, depending on who’s producing the confirmation dog.

If they’ve not had experience with sheep, those dogs lose their eye and they just, they do not stocky, creepy stare at things anymore, which is fairly interesting. If you stop and think about how behavior is tied to genetics, there are many interesting things in my life, I have to say, and I have to have a lot of time to myself to think about and work out how all these things fit in my head, in my little Cindy narrative.

But I’m having a whole lot of fun and. The, one of the fun things is when I have my here for, ’cause occasionally people will come to shadow or to spend a couple days learning what I learned or learning curriculums that I write. I love to have them out with, I put them out with one of my dogs to hurt sheep and so they get to learn about what that is and how it operates and how it goes.

And it’s, it’s always fantastic to get feedback from them after I’ve sent them out with the dog, you know, to go get sheep and run it through a course. It’s as pretty fantastic. And, and, and it seems like it’s, um, informative for them in some ways too. Which of those activities do you find most rewarding?

Probably the sheep dog trials because they’re so hard to do well at. I’m like a sheep herding retard because it’s taken me so long to wrap my head around it. I mean, you wanna talk about stupid, I mean, just you would think, and I, I trained for many years before I went out and I’m thinking, well, I, I understand dogs.

I can train a dog. This should be no problem. Well honey, I’m here to tell you. And that’s not true. And so I, I was, I’m, I’m still and still, I rub my face in the dirt a lot of times when I’m trying to, to work the dog and work the sheep, I’m still, I still come up short. So, but you know, you, I always love to challenge myself with something much harder than what I probably can do because I feel like that’s where, when you’re hanging out there in the uncomfortable zone is when you’re learning a whole lot and you’re getting better.

You don’t get better until you bleed and get dirty and shove your faith in the dirt. Some, I think I, that’s just who I am. I don’t think, I don’t think that being good comes with like, you know, that you, you’ve stayed clean and been, you know, perfect at everything because it’s when you’re, it’s when you’re mired and you’re picking grasp blades outta your teeth and wiping the mud off your butt that you really think about, okay, what am I learning here?

And there’s something that needs to go a whole lot better than what this went.

My husband was riding by the barn on the lawnmower one day and he says, Cindy, all I saw was feet. Then sheep had just like taken me. He went. He, he just went, he just panicked. ’cause my dog was not, not ready to be doing what it was doing and I was being stupid. And the dog zigged when it should have zagged and the, the dog, the sheep went like this.

And my feet just, my feet just went straight up in the air and I bam, on the ground. Jim said, all I saw was feet out there. Were you okay? And I’m thinking was, uh, it’s really good. I have my cell phone with me so that I could have called you if I could not get up on my own. But nobody likes getting off the mower, so he’s not gonna get off unless there’s a No, it’s, it’s like a confirmed injury, right?

He was in the zen. I mean, you got the, you got the mic Ultra, the baseball cap lower and maybe some music, sometimes the speaker be going. Yeah. Nice little dip between the cheek right there.

Yeah. The therapeutic It is, it very much is. And he’s got this, he’s got the biggest lawnmower that’s zero turn before you can have a tractor that John Deere makes. Um, one of our friends sold it to him. He sent him a letter from John Deere. Congratulations on your purchase of the baddest bitch on the planet.

Huh. He loves the mower and it’s great. It was like the purchase of a car, but I thought, you know, he really wants it. And he says it’ll save time for him to do other things for me. And he does cook my dinner every night, plan the meals, do the grocery shopping, and wash the dishes. So I’m blessed. So pretty hard to argue with that.

You wanna ride that mower, honey? You just ride that mower. Be just fun with me.

So yes, lots of dog sports, lots of learning, um, lots of having fun and, you know, I’m just, I’m really happy that I’ve managed to stay ahead of my ugly little diagnosis that I have and continue to have fun. But I will have to credit it really, I think I’ll have to credit it a lot to my border colleagues just because, um, maybe if I’m not quite feeling it that day, I can, they have that energy and like I can meet them and, and I guess I’m an energy suck person, but I can meet them and it just lifts, you know, their energy and their enthusiasm lifts me.

And I’m telling you, when I’m, when I’m out working a border, col, I’m not thinking about anything else, but totally in the moment. And I don’t feel like, oh, there’s my knee again. Oh, there’s my back again. Oh, can’t walk when my ankle hurts. Nothing hurts when I’m out there whistling and working and. And doing what I love it.

Doesn’t it? It doesn’t. It’s only when I come out of that phase I go into like that. Uh, have you heard of Flow states, Jason? I have not, no. Okay. So that’s another thing for you guys to talk about with each other. Flow states, it’s um, it is hyperfocused really, um, when you are, um, so focused on your tasks that you almost have the ability to, that time stretches that you’re able to complete so much in such a short period of time because of this hyper focus that you have.

This is the only thing I’m thinking about. You know, when we train dogs, we’re kind of good dog training I think happens in flow states because the, you’re totally, completely in the moment. The only thing you’re thinking about is training the dog. You’re not, you can’t even, sometimes you get tunnel vision and you can’t hear things around you because you’re so into that moment and what needs to happen and making sure you’re getting your timing right on behavioral consequences.

Those are like flow states. Flow states are super healthy for us and this ability to, to, um, to complete so much in such a short period of time because of this ultimate focus. Um. It is very good for our psyche and it’s very stress relieving. Um, it’s just super good for you. So study about flow states and changing your mental state.

It’s it like, I feel like good performances have to do with flow states. Whenever you’re looking at time performances has to do with dropping out every thought in your mind and, and totally in the moment, in the second, in the millisecond. Um, I, to that point, Cindy, when, when I’m working with one of our newer trainers, I call it the no phone zone.

Yes. And when we are working on something, phone’s on silent, not because, you know, it’d be this huge issue if it rang, but it takes you out of what you’re doing. Yes. And it, that that split second, you’re like, what was that? And then now especially a new trainer has a lot of trouble getting back to where they were.

And I say no phone zone ’cause it rhymes and it makes me smile. Yeah. But no phone zone and either airplane mode or silent and doesn’t have to be forever, but even 20 minutes to just have that during that session where you’re a hundred percent present, it makes a difference. It, it makes a huge difference.

And I just don’t, it makes such a difference that when I coach people, um, when I coach people, I tell them, uh, alright, this is, this is the drill we’re gonna do, or this is the exercise we’re gonna do. Make sure they walk through it, that they understand it, and then I tell them, now you’re gonna go out there and do it, but I am not going to say anything to you while you’re doing it.

Not until you’re done. Don’t say anything to me while you’re doing it, until you’re completely done. Because I like that. Well, you know, the, one of my things is, is that when, when you’re, when you, you are connecting with a dog, all right, so you’re connecting with a dog, it’s an energetic connection. The minute that I do something with that dog and then I completely stop and look at you and say, Matt, did I do that right?

Or I don’t feel like That’s right. What you basically have done at that moment is that you’ve broken the internet, the emotional energetic connection that you’re having with the dog to talk to the person or mm-hmm. So it’s, it’s messing you up, but what does it, what does it say to the dog that you won’t stay in flow with them?

And I think it makes a difference with our, with our trainers and handlers. When you maintain flow states with dogs, you get more resonance and you get more willingness in them to work with you because they’re feeling your connection that you’re not breaking off. So I don’t talk to my student. I don’t like to talk to my student while they’re doing the performance.

And then I tell them, when you feel like you’re done, reward your dog, spend a moment with your dog and then clip the leash on or whatever, and then come over to me and we’ll talk about what you just did. Or if there’s, I like it. Yeah. Because then the person can engage with the dog for that performance, do the wrap up, disconnect with the dog, and then engage with me.

And then I don’t feel like I’m intruding on what they’re doing with their relationship. Because the more I’ve seen it and the more information I get and the more that I pick up what people who are more experienced than me say, you’re, what you’re experiencing when you’re training a dog is an energetic connection, especially when you’re doing it well.

Right. So, so it’s, it’s, it’s upon me to respect that. And so, and, and that explains for me, for me personally, that explains why my dog does not do as well when I’m giving a demo, as when I’m doing the behavior, not giving a demo, it’s because I’ve split my focus between. The dog and the energy that I’ve got with the dog and with the audience.

So a lot of times if I demonstrate something, I tell them, I’m gonna break off from you. I’m gonna show you this and then I’m gonna reward my dog. And then after that we’ll talk about it. I just find it to be very helpful. Um mm-hmm. And I do point out to pe I’m really careful to point out to people when they, when they drop their dog, which is a dropping of the emotional connection.

Here you were running your dog and then as soon as whatever he went off course or did this or that, you catastrophize turn to me and you completely dropped. That affects, that affects things that has an impact. Um, these dogs, these dogs sense things and know things that we are yet to comprehend. Even we don’t know all the things yet.

It’s a little bit, if something tells me, terrifying, tells me, maybe we never will. It’s a little terrifying at times to think uhhuh, you know? But, uh oh, do I just love it? I just love it and. You know, on that statement might be a good closing point because I mean, you have so much passion. Oh my gosh. You know something?

Of course. Oh my, we’ve been talking a long time, guys. I mean, we could, I mean, we all share such a passion for dogs that we could talk for. Yeah. A really, I mean, there’s so much we didn’t, when are we gonna have a southeast regional hoohaw where we all hang out and like just talk about this stuff? Is that an well, hopefully.

Is that an invitation? Always fun. Yes. Come play with us. Come play. All right. That I was gonna say, bring your dog. As long as we’re hurting sheep, I’m in. Come on down. Oh my gosh. You’ll have so much fun. So much fun. I’m just all about, life is too short to take it so darn seriously. And just take yourself so darn seriously and just, you know, be a human being.

Be a human being. Spread light, spread love. Try avoid being so judgmental and share when you can share and just try to find, just try to find good people and break bread and, and try to laugh for God’s sakes. Let’s try to, there is a, there’s a t-shirt, there’s a t-shirt in there somewhere with all that stuff you just said.

There’s, there’s gotta be, there’s some gold, but you know. Well, Cindy, is there anything you would like us to share in the video description to make sure people know where to find you? Your kennel? What would you like people to know about. Your business, I’m assuming your, your breeding operation. Well, you know, Matt, I didn’t come here to Hawk Anywheres.

I’m not selling any particular thing. I love ICP and I love that you all are carrying forward the torch. Um, you know, I’m more than willing to try to talk to people or help people or, you know, I just come for a visit and her some sheep play around in the pasture. Um, have a chat. Um, but I, I’m not particularly trying to make a living off this interview.

You know what I mean? So, uh, wait, this the, the only part of your marketing efforts. My website is george do gym.com. We have a Facebook presence that is probably more active than anything else. And, and I, I, um, I don’t, uh, I’m not like every hour showing you what I’m eating on Facebook and, and that, but I do keep up with like my notifications soon.

Message me on Facebook if you want, or, you know, scroll the posts and, um, I’ll have, I’ll have more puppies on the ground maybe late this year, early next year. But I only sell to experience competitors. Um, who’ve, and, and I really prefer people who have owned work in line border colleagues before. So that’s kind of my market, but we go love it.

We’re worldwide. Awesome. Hey, couple, couple quick things, Matt, before we wrap us up. Yeah. Number one, that whole part where she’s talking about her husband buying groceries and cooking dinner, that’s gotta get cut out. I don’t, I don’t have time for those type of expectations in my life. Um, that’s gotta easy, that’s gotta go.

Yeah. Second, second thing. I don’t know if, I don’t know if we can keep doing these podcasts, if I’m gonna get this much homework every time. So I mean it, I got like. 28 things written down here. I got a chaos theory. String theory. Yeah. So I, I’ve got more. I’m telling you, we, we could just go all the way into all kind of things, but I, I love learn.

Um, last year I took a certification course in, uh, h hypnosis, so I know how to hypnotize people. I always wondered. But anyway. I know. Let’s wrap up, Jason. I’m sorry you have long list, but, um, we’ll get to it. Just pick at it and you’ll get to it. It’s fun to learn things. Well, I’ll get, I’ll get to work on the list.

I, I can’t wait to see you all in July. I am excited as always. Likewise. I’m gonna bring my little D dog. He wants to do the little, he wants to do the thing, you know, do the thing. So you’re, you are teaching, um, at the conference, uh, during the day, and you’re doing hypnosis in the evenings, is that right? No, I, at the bar, you know, once you tell people at the bar, once you tell people you know how to hypnotize people and that you’re looking for people to hypnotize, they disappear really quick.

They’re like, uh, uh, that’s great. That’s really good. Good luck with that. Yeah. Or they always wear sunglasses around you. I don’t know if that block’s hyp hypnotizing or not, but. It seems like it would. Well you know, there was much more fascinating information that went with all of that. Not just the whole, not just the H hypnotizing part, but it was quite fascinating.

So that I would recommend that was like a $900 well spent for me. Really was. Hmm. Awesome. Well looking forward to conference. We will see you soon. Alright, my dear, you take care. It was great to meet you. So sorry. It was a pleasure. All right, bye. See you in July.