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Welcome to Dog Pro Radio. Today we have Dee Holt on the show. Dee was a speaker at our annual conference a few weeks ago and did an awesome presentation on free shaping and the use of a clicker. It was, uh, something you have to see in person. It was definitely a lot of fun. Dee is also the owner of Applause.

Your pause that’s, that’s hard for me to say. Applause your pause. And is also the founder of a prison dog program called Magic City Canine. Welcome to the show, Dee. 

Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, applause. Your pause can be a mouthful, but luckily, after 20 years in business, I think Miami Dade County is pretty good at saying it.

Good. Good. I need some more practice from my end. It doesn’t seem like it’d be that hard, but it is at least for me. 

Well, I’ve got some, I’ve got some exciting news since conference for you. 

Let’s hear it. 

So, I guess because I had used the shelter dogs during my presentation, they obviously got a lot of exposure that they wouldn’t have otherwise gotten, um, which makes me feel really good.

So all the dogs that left that weekend or that week, they all, they all got a positive outcome, um, including Bing b who actually moved back to, uh, my program in Miami, but be as a result of a trainer that was there in my workshop at the IACP conference in Savannah. Um, Bing B actually has already been adopted, so once he completes our Magic City canine program, he will move back north to Virginia to his forever home.

But he is already, um, adoption fee’s been paid. He’s spoken for his new family’s making arrangements to come to Miami at his graduation to, to pick him up from our training program. So it, I couldn’t be happier. It was a, it was really good outcome. 

That’s awesome. 

Yeah, 

Jason, we need a producer that could do like an applause button right now.

You know, some sound effects. 

I had my road caster, I could make it happen. Yay. 

Well that’s a cool story. We should definitely find a way you get that shared on social media. ’cause I think everyone at the conference is gonna remember those dogs of course. To see that they’re adopted out. That’s pretty awesome.

Yeah. Awesome. 

Well thanks for the update. 

Absolutely. Well, tell me, what do you, what do you wanna know? I’m happy to share with you whatever you like. Um, I’m still up here in the North Georgia Mountains for a couple more weeks and then I’ve gotta head back to Miami and get back to, I guess what I consider the, the usual grind of doing, doing business.

Um, out of pause your pause. I tend to work in my business when I’m in Miami and I work on it when I am away for the summer. So I’m wrap, I’m wrapping up my, my, uh, my bigger boss vision board items for the summer. 

Good luck with that. That’s never an easy task. No. Well, why don’t we just start with your background.

So anyone who’s at conference, you know, of course, heard your presentation and knows some of your background. Sure. But we also have a lot of listeners that were not at conference. So just wanna walk us through who you are and what you’re all about. 

Of course. Um, well, I, I am an only child. My name is Dee. I grew up in Austin, Texas, with a lot of dogs on a lot of property.

And I think like all of us that start, you know, that, that show an interest and maybe start in this industry. We grew up with dogs. We love dogs. We’ve always known that animals are gonna be the thing for us. Right. Um, my story’s a little different because my, my chosen career path was supposed to be, um, oceanography.

Um, specifically I was really, when I, when I went to University of Miami and studied marine science, um, oceanography and chemistry, I was really into what’s called population dynamics and specifically for sustainable fisheries. So I am a science nerd, like at heart. I love data, I love statistics, but I also love like wide open spaces, nature, the water, all the things.

Um, and so I did move, you know, from growing up in Texas. I did move to, uh, Miami, Florida in 2001 to attend the University of Miami. Um, they had the best, one of the best marine science programs in the country when I went to school there 20 years ago. And it was amazing. I had a great education there and I had this very defining moment in my senior year of college where I’m like, yes, I’m gonna get a master’s in science and we’re gonna go all the way and I’m gonna be Jacques au, I’m gonna be my PhD and like all these things.

And I sat down with one of my mentors, her name, um, was Linda Farmer. Um, she passed away many years ago, but she was such a wonderful mentor to so many of us that were in enrolled in the marine science program there at, at University of Miami. And she was a single woman, never married, never had kids, but very well respected in the scientific community in Miami with her research.

Um, and she sat me down and she said, I’ve watched you grow in our program. I’ve watched you serve our community, um, the leadership positions, you hold on campus, all the things. And I don’t think you’re meant to go into oceanography. And I was kind of borderline devastated, you know, ’cause she was someone I really respected and, um, and she’s like, I, I just think you’re gonna be really unhappy if you’re at sea like nine months of the year with the same six people.

And she was right. So I kind of, I took that conversation to heart at the end of my undergraduate career of college and I kind of was like, well this is what I thought I was gonna do since the sixth grade. Like, I don’t know what else I’m supposed to do. So I took a job, um, at the University of Miami. I was still living in Miami in, um, the alumni relations department, specifically in development.

So I was the administrative assistant for what’s called a major gifts officer. And my boss Ann, she could. Win people over in an amazing way that made them open up their checkbook and write a $5 million check to the University of Miami. I mean, she was a, she was an incredible, what we call friend raiser, right?

Just through the nature of becoming her friend. You are sold, you’re on board and whatever she needs, you’re, you’re there. You know? And so, you know, like, uh, what’s that movie taken like, I’ve learned a very specific set of skills. Like I, I feel like I learned so much from Anne and then Anne as my mentor at that time in my life.

I think I was like 21. She’s like, you need to get your MBA. And I was like, gross. Like, I don’t wanna do business at all. Like, that does not interest me at all. I’m just here for the paycheck. I’m buying my time. I don’t know what I wanna do with my life. And she goes, no, you need to get your MBA, you’re here at the university anyway.

Apply for such and such program. So again, I’m trusting the mentors in my life, right? I’m a trust the process kind of girl. So I trust another very respected female mentor in my life. And I go to this MBA open house orientation, whatever it is, and it comes to my attention that if you are a science major, right, and your GPA was X high, which mine was, you were exempt from having to sit for the gmat.

And I was like. Okay, cool. Like maybe I could do this now I don’t have to take another exam. And that was actually a big part of the decision why I decided to do an MBA instead of a master’s in education or a master’s in Science or something else. ’cause there wasn’t another test barrier. I go, eh, whatever.

Like they’ll just let me in, let’s do it. Um, and then the rest is sort of history, like doing that master’s in business administration. It did have a marketing concentration, really changed the way that I viewed the world, made my mind think differently. And when you combine that with my inherent nerdiness, love of nature, love of the animals, that’s what enabled me to say I know how to do it.

I see the roadmap and I will build a very large, successful dog training business. There you go. 

That’s pretty awesome. Well, I guess for the record, if you’re talking to Anne, if she’s calling anyone for a $5 million check, have her call Jason. That’s, that’s her go-to 

have her call Jason so that, uh, Jason can get her on board to raise money for ICP.

I know, right? Oh, she’s incredible, man. And she still, still working there at, um, like she’s, what she’s done in her position is very, very admirable. And I, I’m so lucky to have learned so much from her that really has, I think, allowed me to grow my business very organically. Before Facebook was pay to play, before Instagram was invented, before any of that, just organically through friend raising, 

everybody needs an and in their life.

Yeah. 

Or two. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, do you wanna walk us through some, uh, some details on Magic City canine? Once again, those of us at conference know a little bit about this already, but Well, any detail you wanna give is great. 

All right, so then I’ll give you, right, so continuation of the original story, right?

Yeah. So I build applause. Your pause. Slowly but surely. My business is quite large. It’s, I, I’m pretty confident it’s one of the larger ones in the country, um, in terms of like volume of dogs that we see come through our doors and also, um, amount of staff, annual revenue, all the things like, I think there’s not a lot of us who have, have been able to do that.

Um, and when I got pregnant in 2017, I only have one son, right? So he’s an only child too. I recognized that I was not, I I wanted to be able to stay home and, and raise my son, right? And I had to put certain systems in place to allow me to completely step away from applause your pause to do that, that it would no longer be just dependent on me.

So I did that. It took me a year. I stepped away from the business, let my team do their thing, stayed at home with my baby, which was awesome. And then when I got to a point where I was ready to come back full time to pause your pause, I had this like realization they don’t really need me. And that was hard.

Um, I was like, what do you mean you don’t need me? Like, this is my, this is my company, it’s my baby. No, we’re fine. Do what you’re doing, Dee. So that’s when Magic City Canine was born because I put myself out of one job and had to create another job for myself to keep myself with what I feel is now my purpose.

Right. Um, so I had been hired in, gosh, what year? Probably 2009 by, uh, another organization, a 5 0 1 C3 in Florida that did service dogs. Um, they have a purpose, um, a purpose, purpose bread, golden retrievers, like a breeding program for, uh, mobility work. And now they do some autism work as well. And I was hired by that company to run their prison dog programs in South Florida.

So from 2009, uh, up until all the way when I started Magic City Canine, which was 20, the end of 2017, beginning of 2018, I was the head trainer in South Florida for that particular program. And as a result, I got to intimately know all the leadership, um, and the players with within Florida Department of Corrections establish really good relationships with my wardens, assistant wardens, all that stuff.

And then when it came time for them to want to open additional programs at other institutions. I was actually the contact that they thought of, right? Not that actual organization, because they only deal with me. And I was like, you know what? This is a great opportunity. I have already been working with my municipal shelter for so many years.

I, I support them, um, wholeheartedly and, and the very hard work that they have to do, um, in Miami with how many animals we sadly have in our shelter system in Miami. And, um, I saw it as a way to really. Still further have a positive outcome for a lot of these dogs that are sitting a hundred plus days in Miami-Dade Animal Services.

Um, and because they are, they’re hyper, they’re unruly, they get adopted, they get returned, or they just get overlooked. So, um, I did get solicited by Department of Corrections to move forward, but I already knew what I was doing from working the other program. So, um, I, you know, got with my attorney, I opened my own 5 0 1 C3, I did all those things, and then Magic City Canine was born.

And then you fast forward to now, so from like 2017 to now. Um, we, we actually just downsized our program this year for a number of reasons, but we had gotten up to having our dogs in three different institutions. Right. Um, we had, you know, 12 to 14 dogs per program and we had something like 70 something men that were involved in our vocational program.

So it really has been able to develop into this really large, um, successful organization where like, we’re not only getting to save the dogs from the shelter, but unlike other prison dog. Programs in the country because mine is run by a trainer, right by me and my staff. Um, we’re able to actually teach our inmates how to become professional dog trainers, and that’s what makes Magic City canine so different from other prison dog programs where like, okay, like some ri like, like, no offense to anyone that hears this, but like some other random volunteer comes in, teaches basic basic skills to these inmates.

They train a dog for six to eight weeks, they get their little certificate and, and then that’s it. Ours is actually a vocational program. Inmates that are in our program are in our program for anywhere from, you know, three to five years before they’re release and. With that in mind, we are equipping them with the same high level skills that you would probably get if you went to Star Mark Academy or you went to another school that’s actually like a live on campus, where you have instructors that are growing your skills as a professional trainer.

And that’s really what, that’s what the core of my program is about. The fact that we save dogs is icing on the cake. It really is about the skills that we’re giving these individuals so they can get released and have that option if what their plan is doesn’t work out for ’em. 

So the numbers you walked through there, the, the number of dogs in, in the program, the number of inmate inmates, I was assuming it would be kinda one person to one dog, but it sounds like there’s twice as many inmates as dogs.

Correct. 

Is there a reason for that? 

Yeah, so, um, typically we have two inmates deci assigned to each dog. One inmate is what we’d consider like the primary trainer, and then the other one is like his assistant trainer. Um, we have worked with women in the past, but you’ll hear me say he, he or him a lot because our population at this point is all male adult male inmates.

Um, but we try, we try to stagger it so that when the primary trainer gets to the end of his sentence, we call EOS, right. When he e oss end of sentence and walks proudly out those doors. If he’s mid dog, that dog’s not gonna be left without a handler. And his job, which is also tied into the the program, um, is to mentor his own apprentice trainer.

So he has to already be training his successor for when he leaves the program. And sometimes you wake up sick and you need an extra handler, like, you know, at a basic level. Each dog gets two people, just so that we know the dog is also always cared for. 

So all of these inmates are going to be released sometime.

None of them are people that are there for life or for time. 

So most of them crazy time will be released. We do have a couple of lifers in our program and those, those trainers strategically are our like mentor lead trainers. Um, and because of maybe their length of stay, maybe they’ve already been incarcerated for 20 years at this point, um, they are allowed regardless of what their crime was to participate in the program, um, because they can provide our program with stability.

So it is pretty typical that you might have, like, you know, you might have one or two lifers in a group of men that will, you know, reach the end of their sentence where they will not. That’s a good question. 

Jason, anything burning a hole in your brain? I’ve got, I’ve got so many questions about safety and picking out the inmates and not even dog questions right now.

Yeah. And 

by the way, like, feel free to ask me, like, whatever you wanna ask, like, please don’t be shy. I love talking about this. And, you know, the way that I see my, my job as an advocate for these guys as well. I think if we don’t allow people to ask us the kind of more awkward, hard questions about like, maybe what that prison life is like on the inside for the guys, then that’s where some of the misconceptions come in.

So please don’t feel like there’s any question you can’t ask. You’re welcome to ask it. 

Well, I know my next one is just safety. Uh, how do they, how do they, how do they ensure your safety? And, and what I’m thinking specifically is someone listening to this podcast that is like, that sounds kind of cool.

I’d like to help people. Not sure I wanna be in a prison around incarcerated men. Um, how, how is that handled? What does it feel like for you? Sure. 

That’s an excellent question. And I actually, I have an an NBC reporter that’s gonna be coming to do a piece on me in the fall. Um, and just yesterday she emailed me and she’s like, can you guarantee my safety?

And when I read her email, I sort of like, like, I, like I giggled, right? Then I just go like, are you for real? Like, of course you’re fine. But I also have been doing this a long time. Right. Um. I can remember, I mean, I, I tend to be a very, like, I’m a very confident individual. I don’t really worry about my safety, like generally speaking.

Um, so I, I wasn’t nervous walking into the prison the first day I did. Um, but in having visitors come hosting ado adoption, adoption events at the prison, having guests come in, you know, to see showcase top events, obviously safety is a big thing that comes up for most people. Um, and so, you know, the way I I try to describe it is like with my inmates in particular.

They are some of the best of the best. Firstly, they wouldn’t be able to participate in these programs if they didn’t already qualify. And that’s something that Department of Corrections is gonna qualify them based on their behaviors, you know, lack of disciplinary actions that they’ve had while they’ve been incarcerated.

And also the nature of the crime, right? Because there are some crimes that will exclude you completely from participating, not just in my program, but in any type of these, these types of programs because they are a privilege, right? So you take into account the fact that these guys already know it’s a privilege.

They have to have a certain standard of behavior coming in and they take it very serious. They take it very seriously. Um, so. We do have, like, you know, like in all prisons, there’s always gonna be an officer or someone that’s assigned that has eyes on you. There’s never a time when like someone doesn’t have eyes on you.

But I have never in all of my years as a woman, and keep in mind, like I’m 43 now, but I was in my early twenties when I started these programs. So I was a lot cuter then. I mean, I know I’m a, I know I’m adorable now, but I was a lot cuter then walking into a room of all men that were my dad’s age, that was my population, and they were supposed to take me seriously.

Like, so what I found over time is that I actually feel the safest when I am there with these men. And the reason is because they, they, I know that if something were to happen, right? And this is just me speaking personally, if something were to happen. I would be their first priority to protect. And that comes from having this very profound relationship with these individuals because I am their mentor and I am there to serve them.

And I really genuinely have never worried about my safety around them. And there have been a couple of times in my very long career inside corrections where maybe we’re out on the yard, right? And what does that mean? Like there’s some guys over there playing basketball, there’s other guys jogging, there’s other guys working out.

And then here we are over here training our dogs together. We’ll be out on the yard and something will happen. Maybe two inmates will get into a disagreement. Things start to maybe escalate. You see officers starting to walk and in that moment you go, oh my gosh, like what’s, like, what’s gonna go down?

Just the energy of my men. You know, they make me feel safe the same way my husband makes me feel safe. So never as a woman have I worried about my safety in those contexts, I am perfectly fine in combination with their loyalty and also just the officers doing their job. So a guest walking into a a correctional institution, they’re not gonna turn you loose with people that actually pose a threat to you.

You have to understand, firstly, that even if these men don’t know you. Their interaction with you is a privilege and their corrections is not gonna put your safety at risk like just right off the bat. So it’s, it’s very safe. And I have talked to other women specifically about that at IACP, you know, and other dog training conferences where I’ve given my presentation on how to start a prison program.

And I’ll always get that question and I say, don’t worry about it. Like I understand that that’s a concern, but you really don’t have to worry about it. Your Department of Corrections already knows the drill and these guys are gonna be so excited to welcome you with open arms. They will have your back a hundred percent.

Alright, well glad you’re staying safe. 

Yeah. Do you like that answer?

So the dogs stay with the inmates at the prison, correct? 

Yes, that is correct. They live full time? 

Yeah. With their have to change things up. How do they have to, I’m sure they have to. Make some concessions, right to 

Yes. 

Make sure that they’re able to take care of the dogs in the way that they need to. 

Yes.

So from a Department of Corrections side, the ways in which the prison has to make different accommodations for dog programs is. A normal inmate would not be able to keep a bin full of items in their room. Like that’s just never gonna happen. But if you’re in the dog program, you got more, you’re like us, like normal handlers on the street, you got a lot of shit.

Okay, you got a lot of shit and it’s all in a box. And you’re like, what is this? I haven’t seen this ball in three months. Oh my God, I forgot I had that tug toy, whatever. And that’s always tends to be the complaint of some of the sergeants and the majors when they do like these, um, like, uh, what do you call, like unexpected sweeps.

Like they just sweep the whole dorm. Always the dog dorm gets in trouble because the people that aren’t the everyday administrators there are like, why do they have all this stuff? And then like our point, people have to our point, people who actually work at corrections have to be like, well, they need this because blah, blah, blah.

We’ve always done it this way. This is why it’s not a threat. This is why they’re allowed to have it. They, so yes, there’s definitely from, from being allowed to have different items needed for dog training. So even, um, being allowed to go out, like the back door of that dorm into a fenced in area where the dogs can go potty.

There are accommodations that the prisons have to get used to making. And that is one of the biggest, um, pain points when you’re starting new programs. Because if someone at your, uh, your particular institution has never dealt with one of these programs, it feels like they’re gonna violate all these security protocols.

And they have a really hard time getting their head around, like, how can this ever work? And I’m like, trust me, it works. It works. I promise. Like, you know, we got toy selection, rope selection, all these things down to a science so that we stay, we stay in safety protocol while still allowing our trainer handlers to have all the equipment they need for success.

Are there kennels on site? I’m assuming the dogs are not staying overnight with the inmates. They’re in kennels. Yeah, they live full-time. 

Matt, full-time. 

In the, in the cell? 

Yes. Like in your bedroom, sleeping next to your bed. Yep. Yes. They live in the cell with the inmate. Um, and that 

blows my mind. 

Yeah, it’s great.

Um, and they do have a crate. The dogs are not crate unless it’s a security count, and that’s more because like they have a handler assigned to them 24 7. There’s no reason that these dogs have to be kenneled unless, you know, the inmate has to go to medical and leave their dog, in which case your second inmate comes into play.

So there’s typically always someone that can stay with the dog, but during security counts when every inmate has to be sitting on their bunk, motionless not moving. You know, inmates get counted multiple times a day to make sure everyone’s still there. That’s when the dogs have to go into their kennel.

Um, so they do have a kennel in their room. Um, which is very, very small. So in that room you’ve got two bunk beds, a toilet, a dog crate, and what we call a foot locker, which is probably like, uh, I don’t know, it’s probably about three feet, maybe three, three feet across by maybe like two feet deep. And that’s where like all of your personal belongings as a human have to fit in there.

I’m a little caught up on the fact that they need to count inmates twice a day. That seems so little tech. Oh, it’s like three. It’s 

like three, three times a day. Yeah. That’s the, and it blows 

my mind that I would think you would’ve already known someone that escaped if, if they escaped. But no, 

I mean, they, yeah, they count.

I know very 

little about prisons. 

There you go. Yeah. They count three times a day. And, um, just something funny like. I’m always so annoyed if I get to the prison and they’re doing what’s called a master roster count, which means that they will check every inmate against their actual, ID like to see their picture to make sure that they are who they, like you are supposed to be in this bunk bed in this room, and the picture on your card matches the face that I’m looking at.

And that takes like three times as long as a normal count where they’re just like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Like they’re just counting. Um, so if I show up and they’re doing like, uh, an unexpected ma master roster, I’m like, okay, like I’m gonna be, be here a while because all the inmates can’t move. There’s no in, there’s no movement on the compound when, when security counts are being done.

So yeah, don’t, don’t make me tell you my story about the one time I lost my car key. That was fun. 

Sounds like a weapon right there. 

So sounds like somebody’s gonna escape and drive off in my car is what it sounds like. Shuts down a whole d Holt successfully shuts down an entire prison for two and a half hours and becomes the least favorite person on in the planet to everybody.

Or they take it and they aerate somebody a little bit with it. 

I mean, it’s just a fob, but Yeah. 

Oh, ky Okay. Little safer. It was 

having an Audi at the time. It’s like push to start, like, I don’t know. No fun. 

Yeah, we, you, I knew that they, most of those programs, they lived in the sale with the, um, inmate because we.

Uh, many years ago we ended up with a dog. Um, she lived, lived with us for years. It was a female bloodhound. She came from a prison program in Kentucky. 

Cool. 

Um, bloodhounds, as you probably know, are not the best house dogs as a general rule, but man, its dog was, this dog was like the best house dog because she came from a prison program.

She lived in a cell and she, she, I mean, she never had accidents in the house. She was very well behaved in the house. She’d go put herself in her own crate at like eight 30 at night. Okay. She had her own routine. Um, and yeah, I mean, one of the best dogs, uh, we ended up training her to do some search and rescue work, but yeah, she’s an amazing dog.

She came from a Kentucky prison program. 

Well, and I love that you’ve had that experience as an adopter, because I feel that like our adopters really do have that same experience you just described, which is. These dogs really understand how to just live with and chill with a person. Mm-hmm. And you know, you layer that on top of the fact that they can also do advanced obedience commands.

You know, if, if you were, at least with my program, if you’re an experienced handler right? And I have more of a a KC obedience competition background with my own dogs, I could walk out of my prison program with any of my dogs and walk into that once I have a bond with that animal. Right. Walk into the a KC ring and take first place in novice, like our dogs get trained for to a really high level, but they also know how to just chill out.

Right. And I think that that’s like one of the hardest skills that people can’t teach their dogs and that’s why they drive them crazy. Their dogs dunno how to just relax, you know? 

Yeah. It seems like it don’t, it’s not really optional in the prison. 

It’s not, it’s. They have to 

Yes. They have to figure it out.

Yeah. 

Yeah. They have to. Or can you 

imagine a bloodhound pacing the cell and banging? 

That’s the worst whenever new dogs move in and I’m always like, have fun you guys. ’cause you know that like someone’s gonna be barking or screaming and then all the other inmates are annoyed because at least in our programs, the inmates, um, if you’ve ever watched like a jail show or a prison show, they’re like two tier dorms.

So there’s a bottom floor and then there’s stairs, and then there’s an upper floor of inmates and they’re kind of like in a pod. So you have like maybe four units that revolve around this central, um, officer’s station where the inmate has all their cameras and everything and is watching, right. That’s, that’s how our, our prison looks like, where my dogs are.

Um, but my bottom floor of both of my dog dorms. Is inmates in my program. The top floor on the other hand are inmates who do not participate in the dog program. They’re general population inmates, but they do have to, they do have a certain orientation for like safety, what to do, not to do, interact with the dogs, and they have to be on board not to get in the way or complain about dog training.

I mean, you’re living in the dog dorm, you have to let the guys do their job. Right. Um, and a lot of the, the guys that will sign up to live in the dog dorm do that because it just feels better. It’s more relaxed and you get to pet dogs. Like why would, why wouldn’t you wanna be there? 

Yeah. To that point, my, my next question is how much competition is there, uh, amongst the inmates to be a part of that pro?

I’m sure you can’t take everybody, but, uh, how much competition is there for people to get into that program to be working with the dogs? 

So, I think initially. When my program started, there was a lot of competition. I would have random inmates come up to me in the yard to be like, Hey, miss D, um, my name’s whoever.

I just got here from wherever, another prison. Right? I’d really like to be in your dog program. So I put in my request, I wanna introduce myself. I used to get a lot of that, but as time has gone on, Jason, I think the word on the prison street is that like D Holt don’t play. Her program is serious and this is not a free ride for you.

So if you’re not prepared to come in and work hard in this program, you’re not gonna come around and sit and like play with the puppies all day. Like, and that’s the thing with us as professional dog trainers, right? Like our friends are like, oh my God, your job, like I’d love to have your job. I’m like, would you really though, because I clean half the day, I pick up poop.

I have to sweat. It’s very physical. As we get older now, I threw out my back again. Like it’s like all the things, right? Um, so we don’t have as much of, as much of a line anymore that we did because you’ll also maybe be curious to find out that some people just wanna be in the dog program because they have access to rooms that are air conditioned.

That’s a bad reason. 

Yeah. And especially in Florida, because this blows people’s mind too. Our prisons are not air conditioned. So don’t get me started on that topic of like humane treatment of people. ’cause that’s a whole nother podcast. Right. But we, our inmates do not have air conditioning in Florida State prisons.

It is hot. 

That’s how hot are we talking? Do you think it gets on the average summer day? 

Brutal, brutal. If these inmates did not know what they were doing in Miami, we like, knock on wood, we’ve never had a dog, you know, be at risk or pass away of heat stroke in our programs, despite the fact that we don’t have air conditioning.

Um, but if they weren’t very diligent about protecting their dogs, it would pose a serious threat to us and it’s just getting hotter. So, you know, with the ventilation that we have put in place, in the actual dorms where the dogs live, we have a lot of extra fans that the other dorms don’t have to keep air circulating.

Um, which is its own challenge by the way. ’cause then the fans are loud. I mean, you can just imagine having to hear them all day, all night. Like what? Like, you, you can’t hear anything. Um, it’s probably 95 to 98 degrees in that dorm. It’s hot. So in the summer months in Miami there, our inmates are very strict about keeping our dogs inside.

It’s all concrete, so they’ll like ice down, water down an area for them. Even in their cell, they can lay on the cool. We’ve got cooling mats, we have pools outside. You know, they’re very strict. They gotta, I mean, your day starts at like five, 5:30 AM at the prison anyway, so they have opportunity to walk and exercise their dogs before the sun comes up.

And then they have to be allowed to do it when the sun goes down, because it’s just this time of year it’s, it’s very difficult to manage. 

So as a follow up to what Jason said earlier about adopting that bloodhound, how long are dogs in the program? And I’m assuming the goal is to get all of them adopted out at some point?

Yeah. Like what’s the average length of stay? 

Yeah, so my, um, my minimum length of stay for dogs in my program is, um, 12 weeks. So 12 to 16 weeks, depending on who the trainer is, is kind of what dictates that because we have a curriculum that we’ve developed side by side with our inmate trainers throughout the years.

On what’s realistic to accomplish in prison training dogs, right? So this is what week one should look like. Week two, like we have all that written down, which is awesome. It took a long time to, to accomplish, um, but minimum 12 weeks so that the inmates can develop the skills they need for their state certifications.

Some of them will get their dogs trained quicker, but Department of Corrections does have, um, certain hour, hours guidelines that the inmates have to be in class, a certain number of hours to get a certain certification from the state, you know, and they do give independent, um, certifications for dog training, which, which is awesome.

Um, but yeah, mine is 12 to 16 weeks once dogs, um, bingbo is a little bit of an exception because people had already like, met him, seen him known of him. Usually when a new dog comes into our program, nobody even knows it’s there until it’s been in training, like four to six weeks. That’s when at that point we, my organization and my volunteers, um, will list those dogs on Petfinder and on social media as available for adoption.

So at that point, the dog already has its canine good citizen, you know, like it’s got all its foundation training, um, but it’s only halfway through the program. So that gives us another good six weeks or longer to find an adopter for that dog. And then once an adopter is matched with their dog, um, we have a date at the end of every month or every other month where the prison allows us to bring those adopters inside the prison, um, so that they can get their turnover lesson when they pick up their dogs.

And that was gonna be my next question actually. I’m glad you said that. Yeah. So who does that lesson? The inmate? 

Yes. That’s, yeah, that’s a part of their training as well. And that’s actually. Something that, you know, thinking about it right now, I don’t ever have to train my guys how to do that anymore because we have, after this many years, that’s the mentorship that goes on within the men that are already in the dog program.

So it’s really, it’s really special when say, I’ll give you some examples. So I have an inmate named, uh, Raja Newman, that’s his name. He loves Malise by the way. Um, he’s my mal expert, uh, on the inmate team. And, um, he’s been responsible for growing several assistant trainers who have come, lived with him, been in the dog program, and then they’ve been released.

His stay is much longer and it’s always a really proud moment for him. And then for us, for me, when we see one of Raja’s apprentices do their go home lesson. You know, I’m standing off to the side and I’m with Raja and we’re sort of watching downfield like that other inmate kind of coach their new adopter, what to expect, handing over the leash, showing them how to handle, you know?

Correct. Just like we do as professionals, right? Like this is the go home session. It’s just like that. And then seeing that new inmate do their first turnover session and feel like so proud that they did it. You know, th that might have been the first opportunity that they’ve interacted with someone from the outside in years.

I mean, let that sink in. Not all of these guys have family or friends or visitors that have stayed committed to being in their life or coming to visit them while they’re incarcerated. Some of these guys have no one like we’re it? I am it. The other inmates are it. Um, so I think that’s a very special moment when you as an inmate lead trainer get to teach someone else how to do the go home and then see them successfully do that turnover session.

Just quick question. Backing up. Yeah, so going back to the bloodhound I had, I ended up getting her, because I had a phone call from a lady who’s like, look, this dog’s been in this prison program for six months and. Her time is up, so she either, you know, is euthanized or she’s gotta find a home. So we ended up taking her in.

Is there limits on your program like that, or, 

that is a great question. So per my contract with, uh, Florida Department of Corrections, I dogs cannot stay there at the prison for longer than a year. So. It does happen. Like I just actually moved a dog who hit the year mark and I hate to have to do it. Um, but now she has to be in boarding until she’s adopted.

And I think for the dog, that’s, that’s gotta be really soul crushing. I mean, it’s like losing your home, right? Losing your stability. Um, so I really, really try to get them adopted out on their cycle, but sometimes they just don’t. But that’s more rare. Most dogs are gonna get adopted out so that by the time they finish the end of their cycle, they’re ready to go.

But because Magic City canine as an organization legally owns these animals, they don’t have to go back to the shelter. And that, that’s another question I get a lot, you know, when I’m doing presentations on how to start these programs, you have two ways you can do it. You can either open your own 5 0 1 C3 like I did.

’cause I’m a control freak. I’m like, no one’s gonna tell me what to do. I’m gonna do it my way. Um, and then the dog, and then you’re responsible for those animals. A hundred percent right. Or as a trainer, maybe you already have a rescue group or a relationship with a small shelter that wants to partner with you, in which case all three of you would be on this contract, right?

That Department of Corrections initiates. And so I think some trainers could feel more comfortable doing it that way, where a third party is responsible for the dogs, and then all they have to do is come in and just train the guys and train the dogs. And, and that’s what I did with that Service Dog organization for years.

But when it came to this particular program, I, I wanted to have ownership of those dogs also so that I, so that I could control their outcome because it’s, I’ve done it other ways, and it is heartbreaking if you invest that much time, energy, and love into these animals, and then they have to go back to the shelter and they do not get a positive outcome.

I think that is the most. Devastating thing that can happen and it is counterproductive to the overall like morale for the inmates and, um, just counterproductive to these programs, right? Like, we want everyone to have everyone to have a positive outcome. 

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I got, I got kind of a weird question I thought of while you were talking about that. Yep. So if you’ve got a dog that needs urgent medical care or even just routine veterinary care, does the vet go to the prison?

Does somebody from your group have to pick the dog up and take it to the vet? How does that work out? Yeah. Does that Seems like that could be complicated. So, 

yep. So that’s a excellent question. And over time I feel like I’ve developed a good strategy to handle every scenario. So first and foremost, with these programs, I think I’m pretty safe to say that no matter what correctional organization you work with, in which state, ain’t nobody wanna be involved with caring for your dogs, it’s gotta be you.

Okay? So if there is a life threatening and emergency, it is on you to figure out how to get that dog out. It is not their job, nor do they have the personnel to drop what they’re doing from a safety standpoint at the prison to get your dog to a vet. So. I have a routine vet that I have a wonderful relationship with that not only gives me an excellent price, but above and beyond service for my prison dogs at her clinic.

Um, it still is half an hour away. So that’s typically how prisons are, right? They’re not like next to your house. They’re like way out in the edge of town. So you got a good, good half an hour to 40 minutes to get there no matter, no matter what. So I have a routine vet that can see my dogs for, um, for non-emergencies.

I have developed a relationship with an emergency clinic that can see my dogs for emergencies, and I have developed a relationship with a mobile vet for vaccines. And the reason that I say just vaccines is because it is, in my opinion, it is not worth. A volunteer’s time to drive out to the prison to get one dog to bring it out, to get one shot and go back because the shot, the shots can’t be administered inside of the institution, right?

It has to be outside the gates. So if I have four or five dogs that have just expired on vaccines, it makes more sense for me to dispatch my mobile vet. And then what I can do is get a volunteer to go that day and help the prison facilitate. Just like walk the dog out shots in the van, back inside, walk the dog out, shots in it.

So, so I’ve got a different veterinary provider depending on what the need is. So you need a mo ideally to make your life easy, you need a mobile vet on your team. You need a regular vet that’s got your back. And a good relationship with Eem Emergency as well, that understands that as a, as a nonprofit rescue, it’s not, it’s not the same as treating my dog that I’ve owned for seven or eight years.

I wanna do what I can for that animal, but I’m also resource limited as a rescue. And I have to work with veterinary professionals that understand that despite how sometimes that doesn’t always produce the outcome we want. And that has happened. Right? Um, I had a golden retriever many, many years ago in my other program, um, that they called me in the middle of the night.

It was like two in the morning and they’re like, the dog is lethargic. You know, his breathing is very labored. We don’t know what’s wrong. His gums look white. So I get out of bed, takes me 35 minutes with no traffic in the middle of the night in Miami to rush to the prison, pick him up, he’s about dead at this point.

I get him out to the emergency vet and it turned out that he had eaten some rocks, I guess some rocks on the prison ground. Um, and he ended up not making it. Uh, he was just too far gone at that point, you know, and I’ve always felt badly about that because I think to myself, I probably would’ve had enough time had he been a dog living in my house.

Right, and I didn’t have to drive 35 minutes out, wait 20 to 30 minutes at the gate. Now I have to drive another 35 minutes out. Wait 20 minutes at the emergency clinic. I mean for critical stuff like that, like the time matters. So we have sadly had casualties in our programs where like you just have to accept that the nature of these programs sometimes means that you cannot get dogs, the vet care that they deserve quickly enough.

But the instances of that happening are so far and few between. Like you shouldn’t avoid doing these programs just because you’re afraid that might happen. But that is, it’s a great question, Jason. ’cause it is a sad reality of these particular types of programs. I’ve had one dog that had a seizure that I just couldn’t get out to the prison in time to pick him up.

We couldn’t, we just couldn’t, we couldn’t get there. He passed away before we got there. So. 

And, uh, forgive me if you’ve already answered this, but who, who picks the dogs and how do they pick those dogs for this program? 

So, I personally pick the dogs for our program, um, which is also I think one of the unique selling points for our particular program or any trainer that might feel, um, might feel inspired to do these type of programs.

We as professional trainers, understanding behavior, body language, social play with dogs, we’re in a very good position to be able to do pet selection for people. And so I really do take that job seriously and I have to qualify a lot of animals before I pick the ones that I think have the temperament that are going to withstand sudden change of environment withstand the pressures of living in a busy prison.

’cause it is very busy, it’s noisy. Um. And, um, yeah, but it, but it’s me on my team. It’s, it’s me who does the selections. And then I’ve of course developed partnerships with people at our mu municipal shelter as well that can help me save time by saying like, Hey, Kathy, like, um, can you pull together like, you know, 25 dogs that you think I might like, thank you.

Whereas I used to have to go and it would take me like days and days to like, Hey, that one looks nice. Let me pull it out. Like that takes way too long. So over time, you develop relationships with your shelters, like rescue office, transport coordinators, whoever it is that already is sort of like pre-qualifying dogs for special programs so that you can just go in one day, spend four hours at the shelter and say, okay, let me interview all the dogs that you have pre-picked for me.

I’ve got a training question for you. Yeah. Now I feel like, did I hear you say one set conference that there’s no leashes involved in the program? Oh, we definitely have 

leashes. Can’t use have We use long lines. We can’t use long lines. 

No long lines. Okay. So I was gonna ask, how are you walking these dogs in the yard without leashes, if you, okay, so they have a leash for that part of the process.

Yes. But training recall is definitely harder without a long line, and it’s a big no-no to attach your leashes together. That will get you, well, when you’re incarcerated, when we say that’ll get you locked up, you’re obviously already locked up. What that specifically means is you’re gonna get sent to like, like the box, like to solitary confinement for something like that.

Like going against. Policies, having contraband, like doing all that. So you’ll get yourself locked up if somebody catches you attaching leashes together like that is a big no, cannot do that. Um, so we have six foot leashes that all of our dogs can have and use, and we have different types of leashes depending on what we’re doing.

So I’ve got nylon leashes as drag lines ’cause um. Sorry, I’ve got biothane leashes as drag lines because those are gonna get very, very dirty. I have some nice softer like nylon leashes that the guys can use for just training like indoors. Um, you know, I’ve got some fleecy tug rope leashes that we can use for walking the dogs.

Then also real quick, like yes, like marking and rewarding like a tug toy. So we’ve got a lot of variety of six foot leashes that we can use independently. And then in my program we’re primarily using Martin Gale collars. We love, um, Heather Beck’s, uh, sidekick from Heather’s Heroes. We love that tool. Um, and then occasionally, we’ll occasionally we will use a prong collar with our dogs, and that’s a bit more, uh, privilege based because that particular tool is especially frowned upon in these types of programs.

And so the way that I position it for my inmates is you have to really prove to me that you know what you’re doing without this equipment before I trust you with this equipment because it’s a privilege to have it. And if you can’t train a dog without it, you’re not gonna be able to train a dog with it.

Like, that’s my, my philosophy. So some of my lead trainers, they’re allowed to have those in their collections, and then they’re always gonna come. We’re gonna talk it out. What, what’s the need? Why we feel this serves the right purpose before we put that in a dog in our program. 

What percentage would you say you’re using a prong collar versus the martingale?

Oh, I, I probably use a prong on like, I don’t know, one or two dogs a year out of a hundred dogs. The, the head collar is gonna, is, is definitely our tool of choice for my really strong pulls and the Heather’s heroes specifically. Not like a generator too wimpy. We love, we love our sidekicks. Um. Then all the other guys, like they are expected right to train their dogs to heal nicely on just a martingale.

So they can use pull management tools at the beginning of training with the end goal being they need to have their dogs walking outta that prison trained to a heel on just a loose lead and a martingale. 

And that’s generally a 16 week program? 

Yes. Yeah. Where that dog’s attached to you all day, every day.

So he’s got a lot of opportunity to practice his leash skills because the dogs, the dogs migrate with the inmates everywhere on the compound. So if the inmate is in movement walking over to the rec yard or walking to the game room, or going over here to talk to that person, like the dog goes. Um, you know, inmates don’t always, they’re not always in their dorm.

There’s periods throughout the day where they have, we say like the yard is open for movement, so, um, they just can move around the city that is the prison. Um, and the only place their dog is not allowed to go is into the chapel. So that’s the church on campus or on the compound. Um, not allowed to go into the dining hall and not allowed to go into medical, the medical building everywhere else the dog is permitted to go, even including classroom time.

So if your dog already has nice, subtle skills and is quiet and respectful and your instructor for your GED class or whatever it is, says yeah, sure, sure. Scott, bring your dog with you. You can take your dog to class. 

Are there other specific enrichment? Um. Things that they do for the dogs in that program?

Oh my gosh, we have so many. Um, we have an agility set. We’ve got like a million dog puzzle toys that the dogs can do. Obviously training every day is a big part of their enrichment. Um, our program in particular, just because it’s very established and we have buy-in from our institution, um, we’re allowed to have Frisbees.

So, and that was like, I remember many years ago when we got Frisbees we’re like, yes. Like they’re gonna let us throw an object. Like, that’s huge though. You can’t just be like, can I get a Frisbee for my dog in prison? Like, no. Um, but the guys like to play Frisbee with their dogs. Um, what else do we have?

We have our kitty pools, you know, that they can swim in. Definitely. Um, yeah, I mean, they, they have a lot of equipment that they can play on. 

Cool. So back to actual training. Yeah. Are you able to use food. 

Absolutely. Absolutely. And the core of the way that I teach trainers, right, because I’m essentially running a training academy in prison, like as a, like as a dog trainer in the, in the free world.

You can’t come to D Hold’s Academy for dog trainers. It doesn’t exist yet. You have to be incarcerated if you wanna go to my, into my academy. But don’t do that. Don’t do that. Um, so. I have the inmates using their dog’s meal portion for training. And I think a lot of us do that with a standard board and train, right?

Like we wanna be able to use the calories that our dog is already supposed to get for training. Um, but we do also allow them to use treats. At the beginning though, I want them to focus on just hand feeding and using the food the dog already needs to have for training and not be reliant on, oh, my dog will only work for pepperoni.

I’m like, something’s going wrong if your dog will only work for, for the pepperoni, right? Um, so we don’t feed our dogs in bulls. They have bulls for water, but they do hand feed their dogs. Throughout the day, um, from their treat pouch for training, and then use higher value items as the training progresses, or if they’re struggling with more distractions and stuff like that, which we all get donated by the way, like we’ve got a nice Amazon wishlist for anyone who wants to go to our, um, find our wishlist on Amazon [email protected].

We have the link there too. And treats are definitely the number one item that we never, we never don’t need, like we always need treats. So feel free, send us all the cookies. 

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You don’t have to be incarcerated to learn from us. Pretty good. You. I 

like it. That’s a 

big, big plus. 

Yeah. Yeah. But if you, we used to be incarcerated, we don’t discriminate. That’s you. That can be like this. Um, right. Um, my tagline for the longest time for a for applause, your paws is you don’t have to be rough to teach your dog stuff.

Nice. 

Yeah. And that’s my, it’s trademarked. Um, and that’s my mantra. I’m always like, you don’t, you don’t have to be, you know, like you can be firm, you can be fair, but you don’t have to be harsh. You don’t have to be rough with your dog. Like, you know, stay the course, learn what you’re doing. And anybody can train a dog.

Right. 

Well, let’s circle back to recall. So recall without a long line. Okay. And I, I’m just intrigued what their process looks like. Right? Yeah. ’cause for an incredible trainer or like a very experienced trainer, sure. Super doable when you’re great at dog body language and thinking, understanding their threshold and what sets them off.

All, all the things, right? But I’m picturing someone newer to the program that sounds really difficult to train a dog. Recall without a long line, how are they doing it? What are the challenges you see? 

Yeah, so they’re gonna start at a short distance inside and just utilize their leash, right? So a lot of like end of the leash, confront, reward, confront, reward, get that kind of down pat inside, low distraction.

Um, we don’t really have like always at the prison that we could use to kind of guide a dog to go a further distance. So that’s outta the question. But what we do have at our particular institution is we have one side of Delta dorm. So the dorms are named by letters like, you know, alpha Bravo, Charlie Delta, right?

So my dogs live in Delta and Echo. Um, so on the side of Delta dorm, there’s a long side. And typically, no matter what time of day it is, just ’cause of how it is, it’s shaded on this one little strip of side and it’s pretty close to a fence. And that fence is not an exterior fence. So this is important because when you are in a dog program in prison, another thing that’ll get you locked up is if you get caught walking your dog too close to a perimeter fence.

That’s a big no, don’t go near it. But this is an interior fence within a fence, so who cares? Nobody cares that you’re next to it. So what the guys will do is they’ll recruit other guys or other handlers in the program to basically go stand. Like, you stand way over here. I stand way over here so that if my dog makes a run for it, they’re not gonna be able to do it.

Because the opening in between the fence and the building is only so big. It’s like the only spot where we train the dogs where you can sort of like funnel them into a little area, right? So they use that particular area for recalls. And they’ve gotta have four inmate guards essentially, that are standing there waiting to catch a rogue dog while they practice their recalls.

Because at some point, yes, you gotta turn the dog loose to practice the skill. Um, we also have a fenced in area that’s designated for off leash dog play. So a lot of them will use that area too for recall. They’ll just go in there by themselves with their dog. Um, but we’ve also got a, a lot of just open grasped places where they can play with their dog once the dog is, once the dog is off leash, reliable.

They definitely utilize though that, that one particular space where it’s, it’s possible that you can prevent your dog from getting reinforced for the wrong behavior. And that’s sort of the critical thing, right? Like I can’t just go into a field with a novice dog and be like, I’m gonna hope for the best.

All it takes is a couple times, you know, that dog’s screwing around and realizing that he can blow you off and that’s that there’s the end of year recall, you got no way to, to set him up for success. There’s just too literally wide of a margin Right. For error. So yeah, we utilize the side of Delta dorm specifically for that purpose.

And I’m sure every institution has gotta have at least one area that you can be like, oh, like that’s where my guys are gonna practice, recall. 

So it sounds like basically institutional knowledge in the group of inmates where, and you mentioned this earlier, you have someone who’s been there longer Yeah.

That’s able to show them, here’s how you can work on a recall without your dog getting loose and now you’re chasing him around and then, then you get in trouble. Yes. 

Yes. Absolutely. It’s hard at first, the first year of any dog program that’s new and gets set up. There’s so many things I wouldn’t even think to list ’cause it’s been so long since I started a new one.

Right. Um, that you’re just gonna have to work out the kinks to figure out like how, like how is this going to work the best? 

Well, for someone listening who’s intrigued in starting one of these programs, what would your advice be? Where do they start? Who do they contact? What does that process look like?

Awesome. That’s a great question. Um, so every state has a website for their department of Corrections. So what you need to do is you need to go on that state website. Um, and actually let me sidetrack for just a second to just point out for those that might not be aware, um. Jail is different than prison.

Okay. So when we talk about, because people go, oh, she has a jail program. I go, no, no, I have a prison program. And that’s very important because jail as a system is typically too volatile to run these types of programs. So don’t waste your time trying to approach a county jail, the city jail, whatever it is.

Like that’s probably just not gonna happen. You need a prison because a prison provides the stability that’s needed for these types of programs. So when you, when people are in jail, they’re waiting to be sentenced. They’re there for less than 364 days. So that’s not really long enough either to teach somebody how to be a professional dog trainer, in my opinion.

Right. Um, so you want a prison and you want a prison that has reentry programs, that’s the key word, reentry programs. It’s gonna be a lot harder to go convince a prison that has no programs for its inmates, that they should have a dog program. But if they already have established vocational programs at that particular institution, then they’re already what we call program friendly.

They’re wardens, assistant wardens, classifications, officers, all these players, they are pro programs that help the inmates get ready to transition back to society. So that’s easier to walk in the door. So you go on your state website for whatever your department of corrections is, you find the email address, it’s always listed for the person who’s in charge of programs.

And you just reach out, introduce yourself, and you have my full permission. ’cause this is very helpful. Um, I don’t care if you’re watching this podcast and you actually know me or you don’t, you have my permission to say I know Dee Holt, who runs a very successful program in Miami, Florida with Department of Corrections and she’s been doing it for 15 years.

Um, so, you know, as you go into this relationship with the prison, you can make it very clear that you have a person Here I am, I’ll stand behind you. You have a person who’s willing to help you give the information to the prison that they are definitely gonna need when you’re not gonna have the answer.

Okay? So you’ve got that. You’ve, you’ve watched this podcast, you listened to this podcast today, you now know d Holt, and you can use my name to facilitate that door opening. Okay? So I’m gonna 

use that. Next time I get pulled over, I’m gonna be, I know D Holt. Absolutely. They who, 

um, by the way, no one wants me to serve on a jury.

They will reject me for jury Dewey. ’cause I’m biased and I love inmates. It’s great. Yes, 

I’m using that one too. 

Um. So you find the, you find the contact information for the reentry programs person and you just introduce yourself and you say, I’m interested, I’m interested in starting a a, a dog, A dog program.

That’s what they’re called. A dog program. Basic. I wanna start a dog program at your prison. Is this something we could set up a meeting about? Don’t give too much information. Don’t go into your whole background. Nobody cares. I’m telling you, they don’t. They don’t care. It’s a yes or no. If someone will give you a yes, awesome.

Let’s set up a site visit. Let’s talk about it. Let’s see what we can bring to the table. You do already have to know though where the dogs would come from. Before you start that conversation with an institution, you need to know where your dogs are gonna come from. So you either need to be prepared to supply them yourself or already have another, another partner on board that’s gonna supply the dogs.

That’s a lot of good advice. Hmm. 

That’s pretty easy. Um, and if there’s prison programs already in your state, that makes it even easier. That means your, your central office. There’s another terminology for you. You have your regional office people, and then you have your central office people. Um, your central office programs people are really the decision makers for these programs.

Okay? So if your state already has successful programs or if there’s successful programs anywhere near you, that would also be, that also works in your favor because there’s already someone there running a program. 

That makes sense. 

Yeah. 

Because I’m sure the bureaucrats are the ones who are able to make this happen or not happen.

Right? It’s not just about, because I’ve seen it happen like. It’s not just about some officer at the prison or saying like, we wanna have a dog program here. Like if those regional programs people or those central, central office programs, people are not on board. It really doesn’t matter what the institution wants.

That makes sense. Well, we are almost outta time here, Jason. What else do you think we should cover or what have we missed? 

Just back up clarifying y’all, so y’all two don’t just play with puppies all day? No. 

Well, today I’m playing with puppies though. When I’m up here in the mountains, I, I technically do just play with puppies, but I do my desk work and then because I need my fix to actually touch a dog, I go volunteer with the Humane Society to play with some puppies.

Well, it’s afternoon and all I have done today is train Frenchies. That’s it. 

Three of them. Matt’s, Matt’s favorite breed, man. Huskies and Frenchies and Golden Dos. I specialize in Frenchies now. It’s been my whole day. You 

know, my favorite breed is now I swear, any of my shelter friends, I will, I will. Don’t kill me when you hear me say this.

’cause I’m not saying that I don’t love my shelter dogs. Of course, I love my shelter dogs. You know me better than that. I love my shelter dogs, but my favorite breed now is definitely the bernadoodle. It’s not even a breed. I just talk about just like fun, social, easy going. Happy. I find, I don’t know about you guys.

I find them to be a lot more like even temperamented than the goldendoodles. They’re not as like anxious or high-strung, at least not the ones that I’m seeing. Um, I love Mego. Are you seeing 

the minis though? The mini Berna Doles are little wacka do. Are they whacked? Whackadoodle are, 

um, the 

bigger they are, the the more chill they are.

I’ve been The ones are 

standards. 

Yeah. The big ones are like eo. 

Yeah. Yeah. The standard oodles. Ugh. I just love ’em. I never thought I would say that out loud, but there it is. I could train, I could train ’em all day, every day. Just like la la la, la, la. You know? So 

to your point, Matt, it’s been my experience that pretty much anything with mini in front of it is a wackadoodle.

The mini Aussies, the mini bernado, the mini Golden do, they’re all mini She 

poodle. 

Yeah, they’re all a little, yeah. 

I’m not sure I’ve seen a mini sheep poodle, but the full sized ones have been enough, so I can’t imagine a mini. 

They make small ones. Yes, they do. 

I will, I’ll leave you guys with this. So in Magic City canines, we didn’t cover this.

I am targeting pit bulls, right? Like Bing, bingbo, pit bull, American Bulldog type breeds over 50 pounds. Like that’s my jam. Not that I don’t throw in an occasional border Collie or something else in there that I like, but. For me, for these programs, pit bulls are where it’s at. And I’m always telling my guys, because a lot of them don’t, they’ve never, they’ve never trained a dog, right?

They come into my program, they don’t have experience. And I say, you have no idea how easy it’s going to be for you to train somebody’s golden doodle after three years of training. Pit bulls from the shelter. Because our dogs that I put in that program really do equip our men with the skills they need.

By the time they get out, they’ve seen everything, they’ve done everything. Like, and training someone’s doodle is like, they could do it with their eyes closed. And I know, you know, as trainers, like, you know what I mean by that, right? Because the pit bull has, for me, it has all the best qualities that like a Labrador has, like it’s bouncy, it’s joyful, it’s food motivated, it likes to work, but it’s also not always an easy dog.

So you gotta, you know, you gotta learn to read body language really well. ’cause they’re, they’re powerful. And especially the ones that come in and might. It might come to light that they’re not as dog social as we thought they were. Or they have guarding tendencies or they’re protective of the cell that they live in with their inmate like they are not goldendoodles.

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. If you really wanna up their skill level, um, make ’em start training Frenchies. 

They wouldn’t survive the Miami summer. 

No, they would not. That is always when people ask what I think about training Frenchies, the hardest part is so many of them are reactive on leash and then you can only train them like eight minutes at a time before you have to go back inside and cool off at night.

Yeah. At night. So you get like maybe a half hour of good training per day with these dogs when you need ’em outside in the summer. It’s a lot. It’s a lot. It’s hard to fix. 

Well, for anybody that that ends up watching this podcast, um, thank you for coming to my TED talk. Also if anyone listening feels like they wanna come visit me in Miami and they have something really cool and interesting that they want to come speak about to my inmates, the door is open.

We love visitors. You can get on my speaker rotation. I do have funding in place to be able to fly you here. Um, so if you’re willing to volunteer your time to come share knowledge with my guys, we would love to have you. 

Awesome. That sounds pretty awesome. Cool. Well thank you Dee. Appreciate you coming on the show.

You’re welcome. Thanks for having me guys. Enjoy your afternoon.