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Welcome to Dog Pro Radio. Today’s guest is Athena House. Athena has spent over two decades dedicating her life to training and working search and rescue dogs. During that time, she even helped to start the FEMA, Ohio Task Force one Canine program. That was a mouthful. Hopefully I got that right. Athena, she has yes, ton of experience in odor detection, as well as working dogs in highly challenging environments, which we’re definitely gonna dig into today.

So welcome to the show, Athena. Thanks for coming on. 

Thanks for having me. 

Absolutely. So, I guess, why don’t we just start, tell us a little bit about who you are. I think a lot of our listeners will know, but some it might be the first introduction to you. So could you just walk us through who you are and what you do?

Sure. Uh, well I was a firefighter by trade. Um, so I did that for almost 30 years. Uh, with that position, I was a part of Ohio, uh, Ohio Task Force one fema, and we were a local trench team that then evolved into that team. So when I started, I wasn’t with, I wasn’t doing the dog thing, but I, um, had a passion and was able to kind of join that team.

I also have been on Indiana Task Force and California Task Force One and deployed with all of them. Um, and then currently I work with the North Carolina Troopers Association, um, and some local teams here in Ohio. So sound 

sounds like you stay busy. Could we dive? Yes, we can. You know, there’s so many areas we could go with this, and for all the listeners, full disclosure, Jason knows a lot more about search and rescue than I do.

So you’ll hear the smart questions from him and the, the fifth grade questions from me. So, I mean, can you tell us a little bit about your work with FEMA and what exactly that entails? 

Sure. And I, so I’m no longer with fema. Um, I now do local response, uh, was most recently at the Western Carolina flooding, uh, situation with, uh, the Trooper’s Association.

But I started my career at FE with FEMA with, uh, live find dogs. So dogs that are looking for the live person and the disaster. Um, and then kind of morphed into the human remains detection, which is what I do mostly now. Although I still, um, will dabble with the live find area, search dogs, um, and do a lot of wilderness locally, um, and water work with those dogs.

So, um, the FEMA. Part of it. I still always maintain that the dogs that I choose are typically dogs that can do disaster work. Um, and I have a type of dog that’s usually a little bit salty, um, and able to kind of move through some things that the average search and rescue dog maybe doesn’t have to accommodate in their discipline.

What breed dogs do you generally work? So I’ve, I view I’ve worked several. Um, I started with Rottweilers in, in my initial, uh, career, uh, I had a, I had a lab, I have had a couple shepherds, um, and then another rottweiler that did human remains detection as well with the disaster system. And then I have morphed into Belgium Malis, and they’re kind of my breed of choice, um, just for their tenacity and edginess.

So I’ll ask the, the fifth grade question here. Everyone pictures Bloodhounds, right? Yes. 

I love Bloodhounds. They have a lovely purpose. Uh, uh, that is just not a desire. I have trained some, uh, some bloodhounds, but um, that is not a dog that I choose to own. They are they that there’s a lot that goes into them and definitely their noses are well worth it, and the training is, is immense for them.

But, uh, that’s just not my passion. 

We’ve, uh, we’ve trained a lot of bloodhounds over the years and, you know, I get a lot of folks coming to us with, with bloodhounds for search and rescue and, and I’ll, my opinion, I know a lot of people disagree with me. Um, I’ve owned Bloodhounds. Uh, my wife worked, um, a bloodhound in Search and rescue.

Um, they are, in my opinion, they’re Cadillac trailing dogs. Um. But that’s about it. They’re, they’re dumb. I mean, love ’em to death, but man, are they dumb? Um, their brains are very small. Their olfactory system is very big. Uh, and a lot of people try to sort of fit a square peg into a round hole with them trying to do all sorts of weird search and rescue stuff with bloodhounds that they’re really just not suited for.

They’re not the most agile dog. Um, but again, their, their olfactory abilities are absolutely amazing. Um, they just don’t, uh, they don’t think things through a lot of times. 

Yes, they’re just, uh, they’re, you know what? There is a per, there are people out there that do them justice. And, um, my biggest thing was doing obedience with them, the ones that I’ve trained.

But, uh, they have since moved on. They were a family pet that we did training with, and they finally realized that that was probably not the best option. For the dog and now she’s doing a ton of great work and is actually got a really great obedience, which is not always the case with Bloodhounds. 

That’s typically not the case.

A lot of people end up getting bloodhounds and they imagine the Beverly Hillbillies with the old two bloodhounds laying around on the porch sleeping all the time. And that is not what Bloodhounds are really good at until they’re old. No. 

No it’s not. I’ll tell you what, bloodhounds are good at everyone.

We get guards resources from other animals, so they’re super good at fighting other dogs over their bones and food. That seems to be a strength they have so, so Athena, when you’re. On, like on site of a disaster. What percentage of dogs do you think are bloodhounds? Is it a pretty small percentage? Um, 

so typically we are not using bloodhounds in disaster work.

Um, they are looking for lost persons, um, and they do really well with tracking trailing and all of that. Um, but when we’re talking about disaster, typically the dogs that we’re working with, um, they, number one, don’t wear any collars, don’t wear vests. Um, they are independently working from their handlers, uh, have to typically be out of sight.

They have a bark alert. Um, so there’s, it’s just a different type of, of training. It’s definitely, um, very hard on the dogs. You know, they need to be well conditioned. They need to be agile, um, and they need to be free thinking sometimes. And that’s not, you know, what we’re talking about with the, the bloodhound.

They have their place. It’s just not in that, maybe that disaster field. 

So you primarily doing, um. Handling training and handling your dog, or are you spending a lot of time training dogs of others and teams? Other teams? Uh, 

both. Both. So I have my own dogs that I, I still handle. Um, I still do service dogs for veterans with an organization, um, called Rebuilding Warriors.

Uh, and then I have my own kind of people that I work with pretty routinely. I, I work with a group called, um, CFTE, and we do h Human remains detection dogs and handlers. And we do, you know, six to eight classes a year and then private classes for that. And then I have my own business where I do that with, you know, other teams and at their request.

So I kind of travel a little bit and do that with different teams. Uh, both live and human remains detection. 

How many dogs are you working currently? 

I have three that are current. Three my, so I have one, my oldest, oldest, uh, is nine. I have a 3-year-old. And then I have a, a puppy that’s a year old. 

So we don’t have to spend long in this, or if you don’t wanna, you know, talk about Athena, no worries.

But human remains. It, it just, to me sounds like a very hard role for the, especially for the handler, uh, with what you’re asked to do. And I’m just curious, is this, it sounds like a very tough thing to live with and to do. Is there a lot of burnout in the field? Is this something people do for decades and decades, or is it, is there a lot of burnout?

So I think, um, there both, I think there are people that, uh, understand what they’re getting into. My background was in the fire service and as a medic, uh, so I, you know, was familiar with, you know, remains and, and people at their worst. So for me it’s not, um, an issue necessarily. I am very appreciative to the specimens that we are u utilizing for this work.

Uh, it’s very important and we do do things with. You know, local agencies, the FBI and, and some of that. Um, but there are people that get into it and they don’t necessarily know what they’re getting into. They’ve never seen a dead body. Um, and typically when we’re going out on these, these people, they are not in good shape oftentimes, you know, the, whether it’s through the environment, um, or degradation of of them.

Um, so that can be very difficult if someone has never been subjected to that. When we teach our classes with a full body, we actually have the people come and look at those bodies prior to their dogs ever being attached to them, because we all know that it goes right down that leash when there’s, you know, an anxiety and things like that.

Um, so that has worked very well for us and we do a very, um, structured way when we do that for people because we recognize that not everybody, um, is comfortable seeing a dead body. 

Well. I’ll, I’ll say, uh, at least from me, thank you very much for what you do. ’cause it sounds, I’m not sure it’s something I, I could handle.

So very appreciative that there’s people like you that are willing to work hard and do this. Yes. 

Well, I, it takes a special person, I think, sometimes to, to work in this, in this field, but at the end of the day, we definitely need those people to be found as well. Mm-hmm. We, you know, we need people that will, would be able to do that in a way that is honoring those, those, those victims.

Yeah. It, it is not, it is a tough job and it, I tell folks all the time, it working HRD dogs is not for everybody. Um, and you know, I think there are a lot of misconceptions not only about search and rescue dogs, but more specifically about cadaver dogs. What, uh, uh, I’m curious what your thoughts arethe on what, what, what do you think is the biggest.

Sort of biggest misconception there is out there about, uh, cadaver dog handling or training or working cadaver dogs. 

I think people believe that it is, it is an easy discipline and it is not because there’s so many variables to that. So it’s not like you’re putting out, you know, five odors. It is literally, you know, we don’t know how many odor profiles there are from a cadaver, from a human, you know, from human marine.

So we’re learn, we’re still learning that. And scientifically, you know, we’ve made leaps and bounds, but we still don’t know what we need to imprint the dogs on and expose them to. Um, and so that can be very difficult. And it can also make people think that it’s easier than it is because at for the dog, you know, there’s so many profiles and, and variables and depending on where you live in the country and what type of time of year it is, and you know what type of searches that you’re going on, all of that is relevant.

Um, but we have to also. Imprint those dogs and get those dogs to understand what they’re looking for. And so, um, we have to work really hard to do that and make sure that whether it’s a wildland fire or it’s a disaster situation or it is in, you know, in the woods or it’s flooding, all of those things do different things with bodies and pieces.

And so we have to make sure the dogs understand that. 

Um, so you mentioned a couple things there and I was just kinda curious ’cause I get this question a lot, so I’m kind of wondering what your opinion is. Um, what operational scenario for cadaver dogs do you think is the most difficult to prepare for in training?

Water. 

You think? Water. Okay. Yep. 

Water and buried because the dogs don’t. So we do a lot of imprinting, right? Where nose to odor and all those things. Um, and so water and buried, typically they’re not going to get right on source, um, or right on odor. So we have to, you know, you have to have a dog that is, can work through that and not every dog can.

Um, disaster is difficult too because you have to have, you had the agility piece of it and they have to, you know, move through some pretty intense situations environmentally. Um, so if they’re not able to do that physically and or mentally, then that can be an issue. But water is huge because we’re asking people to go and get into that water and potentially be harmed with what our dogs are telling us.

So if we aren’t putting the work in, um, it’s not an addition to your human remains detection, in my opinion. It is a. Subset by of its own. That needs to be honored and it needs to be practiced a lot. Um, and you have to be very proficient. Uh, you have to be able to read the water, read, read the wind, um, and narrow it down enough to put people in the water to dive for those, for those recoveries.

Um, and I take that very seriously. My husband was on the Swift water team for the city of Los Angeles fire department and you know, we’re asking those people to go into the water and, and do things in under some treacherous situations. 

So if this is moving water and not a pond or lake or something, how does that even work?

I’m trying to visualize how the odor would get to the dog and how you would know where to go to search. ’cause I’m assuming it’s moving downstream with the water and then the odor is coming up somewhere else. So. How, can you just, uh, walk us through that a little bit? 

Sure. I mean, it can, that can happen.

Uh, they can oftentimes, if, you know, they, they can remain where they go in. Um, it really depends on what’s happening with the water. So again, you have to understand, you know, undercurrents and what the water’s doing. You know, the wind is a factor. The current is a factor. Um, if it, if there’s an eddy in the water, then that odor can oftentimes, you know, roll around in that Eddy, um, and not necessarily be where the body is.

I, I did a search one time in Indiana where we were on the boat and we were literally following the body down the river. Um, and we weren’t gonna, we weren’t gonna be able to get the person until they popped up from, you know, below, because it was just, it just kept moving. Um, so again, there’s a whole lot that goes into that.

And, you know, understanding water temperature, um. You know, what, what the humidity is doing and all of that stuff is, you know, very important. And then also being able to operate on a boat, whatever that boat is. ’cause we don’t always have that ability to, to pick. And, you know, I’ve had had handlers like be very unhappy with whatever boat they have to get on.

And it’s like, well you don’t really have a choice, because that’s what we’re, you know, the agency has, um, and their operators have. So, um, you know, there’s just a lot that goes into that. And water can be very difficult because of that. ’cause you can’t just say, yes, it’s right here. You’re not gonna see it necessarily, um, until they, you know, until they pop.

So you have to make good choices and be very confident in your dog and your abilities. 

So you me, you mentioned being attached to a couple groups and task forces. How does that, how does that work? Uh, as far as deployments and stuff goes, 

yeah, so typically, you know, you stick to a task force. I, I started with Ohio, that was in my backyard, and it was a, we were, like I said, a local trench team of firefighters that then, um, when we were brought into fema, we had to, we had teams from all over our, our firefighters and first responders from all over the, the state that came in.

And, um, they brought equipment so that we could get qualified to be in the federal system. Um, and then after that nine 11 happened, and so they were one of the teams that went in. Very early on. I was not on that deployment, I was on the team. Um, my husband did respond to that and was in charge of canines for his team, for the city of Los Angeles at that time.

Um, but. When we, we met, we met through dogs and I was going to move to Los Angeles. So I moved away from, I was planning on to move away from Ohio. The economy tanked. I stayed here ’cause I had a fire job and a house, and it was a lot cheaper. Um, and so I was on Cal one for a while. I deployed with them to a couple of hurricanes and, um, and at that point, uh, Indiana task force needed handlers.

And so I joined that team for a while and I still do things with them on occasion. Um, so it, it’s typically you stick with your team and, but I just had the opportunities when I, with moving and life, life happens. And so I had the opportunity to, you know, deploy with all, all of those teams and went to Sandy with Indiana Task Force.

Um, so. 

And you’re working with a team in North Carolina too, is that right? 

Yes. Yeah, the North Carolina Troopers Association Canine team. Um, and I actually deployed with them to Western Carolina with twice we went initially, and then we, uh, went back to look for one of the missing. 

So I have a question about just the structure of a search.

So in my mind, I’m envisioning like when I see narcotics dogs work, it’s very short sessions. They’re working and then it’s a break. They’re working and it’s a break. That doesn’t seem probably the way that you’re working. So I’m envisioning longer searches, but correct me if I’m wrong, but my question is, if you’re doing long searches, how do you keep the dogs on point?

How do you keep ’em from getting frustrated and overworked? I’m, I’m assuming there’s a lot of strategies that you’re following that are different than something like narcotics. 

Absolutely. Well, and the first thing is to pick the right dog for whatever your discipline is. So that’s hugely important. Um. It doesn’t always happen, and a lot of times that can be a struggle, but you need a dog that can persevere.

You need good foundation on them training wise, so that when they, things are getting stressful, they’ve been out for a while. Um, on the longer searches or lots of Western Carolina, for instance, there was a lot of nothing other than distraction odors. Um, so the dogs had to work for quite a while, and you have to do that in training.

So lots of blanks, lots of distractions that you add into their training profiles. Um, agility is important and longevity. So like right now, my dogs spend a lot of time outside. Uh, yesterday we did a training and they, we, they’re not in the air conditioning. They have, you know, their, their crates are, the car is open and they’re in that so that they can acclimate and they, in the need of us going out in this weather because, you know, we don’t get to pick and choose when people are.

You know, lost or missing. So, um, we have to make sure we’re doing all of that, doing, you know, all those different facets. Um, but again, it goes back to the dogs and their, their, their need to work and their willingness to work and then, you know, making it, it fun for them to work. Um, so there’s a lot that goes into that and I think with any discipline, but I think especially when you’re talking search and rescue or search and recovery, you know that it is long, a long times it is sometimes hurry up and wait, um, you know, so there’s a whole lot that goes into it.

They, fortunately, because I teach so much, my dogs often go with me and they will sit in the car in the heat and can acclimate to wherever we’re, you know, at. So that, that’s very beneficial for them. 

So what’s the normal length of time for a search and rescue? Like, how long is the dog? Working even just roughly, I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.

So 

it depends. I mean, like in, you know, sometimes we talk about 20 minutes, sometimes, we’ll, it’ll be an hour. Uh, when we were in Western Carolina, you know, the dogs were working 45 minutes to, you know, and getting a break and then working another hour or two. Uh, one of my dogs was on the river for, uh, about six hours, uh, just because of the nature of that search.

And, you know, we would take breaks and then we would get back on and, you know, I would try to get her to settle and she worked the whole time. She, so we had to put, you know, actually get off the river and let her just have some downtime to, in order for her to be successful. Um, but again, it, it, it, it goes back to the dogs and their training and how much people are doing, you know, I would, I would say that a lot of times teams are maybe doing a 20 minute search and that’s it.

Um, and so they should be doing more, more than that if that’s what they’re going out on. If they’re only going out on 20 minute searches. Cool. Um, but we try to make sure that the dogs are getting realistic searching environments and they’re not always getting odor either. So

yeah, conditioning, conditioning to those longer problems, I think’s really important. I think it’s one of those areas where a lot of people sort of miss a mark, getting them, getting them prepped for long, long jobs. I mean, we’ve been on jobs before that lasted not, not measured in hours, but measured in days.

Yes. And, and especially in disaster scenarios like that is something that is going to be, you know, day after day after day. And even though you’re going back to, you know, your base of operations or whatever for the night, um, oftentimes, you know, the dogs have to manage all of that as well. 

Yep, absolutely.

So. What you, you talked a little bit about having the right dog. What, what are the things that you’re looking for if you’re testing dogs? Um, how does that, what does that process look like? What are you, what are you looking for in a dog and what are you looking to, um, seeing a dog that’s gonna help you sort of exclude it from spending that time and effort to train it?

Sure. I mean, so typically we’re doing, you know, hunt testing, the typical hunt testing, prey, all of those things to see if the dog is gonna go for a toy or whatever. Food is fine also. Um, there are plenty of food reward dogs that are doing just fine. Um, but more, it’s more about their ability to manage things.

We don’t want a nervy dog. We don’t want a fearful dog. We don’t want an aggressive dog. Um, because the reality is those dogs may have to work alongside each other in a search sector, uh, and we can’t have fights and all of that kind of stuff going on. So, um, I’m looking for, you know, pretty biddable dog that wants to hunt and is interested.

Typically, I would prefer a toy. I use food for imprinting and for other things, but I want them to, you know, desire the toy because there’s a lot you can do with that, especially with agility and, you know, conditioning and things like that. Um, but for the most part, you know, we’re looking for the same thing that a lot of we’re working agencies are looking for.

Um, we want a dog that’s gonna continue to work even when things are, are rough, because at the end of the day, that’s what we’re asking them to do. Obviously we are advocates for our dogs. We wanna make sure that they’re taken care of, they’re not getting overheated, things like that, identifying those things.

Um, but all of that will happen. Good conditioning and, and, you know, appropriate search techniques. 

At what age are you usually bringing dogs into a training program? 

Um, so of all three of my dogs have actually been brought in at, uh, of the, my current dogs have all been brought in as puppies. Um, but I have also brought in dogs that are older.

Um, puppies can be a crapshoot. You know, they can have all the, the things that you think that are gonna be great, and then they hit that 12 month mark and they’re like, Nope. Um, you know, it doesn’t always happen. And a lot of times, I mean, genetics matter. Um, but, and actually two of my current dogs are rescues.

They’re from American, Belgium, Malis Rescue. Um, so I wasn’t looking for either of them. They were not dogs that I was planning on getting. Um, the oldest one is one that was bred and I had her father, uh, who is phenomenal, a phenomenal search dog. But, um, the other two have come along. They’ve come with their challenges, but I like edgy dogs.

So for me, um, my expectation of other people is that they might not necessarily wanna work with the dogs that I like to work, and I’m okay with that. Um, because they are, they tend to be very difficult. Um, oftentimes, uh, and again, when you’re talking about rescue, you don’t always know what the history is or genetics and things like that.

So that can be, you know, dicey as well. Um, if I had started that way, it would not have happened. Um, you know, so I’ve revolved some in my, um, handling skills. So. 

So you, you, you mentioned going to Western North Carolina twice. Were you, I’m, as I’m guessing you were working dogs to find live people the first time and, 

uh, no.

We were, we were co we were in for recovery. Um, okay. The team that I went with, we were with three handlers, um, that went the first time. Um, and three that went the second time and both were for recovery. So, but all of them were human remains detection dogs. They had FEMA teams on scene that were there for live find.

Um, and then FEMA also transmitted, uh, single purpose human remains detection dogs that they brought in as well to attach to their teams. So initially we were actually attached to a FEMA team from New Jersey, um, which they were phenomenal helping us, you know, maintain a base of operations and decon and things like that.

’cause that was a huge deal there. Um, and then we kind of got pulled into the EM, um, and moved around. So initially we were in Nashville and then we moved around to some of the smaller areas and did work that way. 

How long were you there each time? 

Um, the first time, I think it was about seven days, I wanna say that the team was there and then the second time we were there just for three days, just trying to cover some areas that had been previously searched and marked with positive things that were not actually there.

Um, so we came back in to assist through the EMA and with the family that is still missing their loved one and had a lot of controversy, um, around that particular case because of fraudulent people coming in with their supposed search dogs and gaining a lot of, um, monetary things and saying that they found her when they did not and, and things like that.

So. A lot of controversy there, a lot of fraud and um, a lot of dishonor. Um, which is really unfortunate for search and rescue as a whole. 

Yeah. But unfortunately that is, uh, part of it sometimes. 

It sure is, and it was a big part of that. I mean, I, the, the astronomical amount of money that some of these teams made, um, I mean, some of those people got arrested after the fact, but they’re still out doing crazy stuff.

And it’s just really unfortunate and it, it’s unfortunate that, you know, anyone could put a vest on a dog as we know with through the service work that I do and, and all of that. But, uh, you know, it, it was just a, it was very, you know, unfortunate for the people involved that put their trust in some people that were just not doing the right thing.

So who was paying these people? Was it families paying out of pocket to get someone to search or 

families? Um. You know, businesses, they would set up funding, you know, GoFundMe pages and all kinds of things like that where people were, you know, of course. ’cause they’re, they, they’re missing their loved one and then their, their neighbors and, and all of the devastation or, and people wanna help, right?

So they’re not doing it, you know, you know, in ignorance. They think they’re doing the right thing. And, you know, unfortunately there are people out there that are not doing the right thing and they’re, you know, taking advantage of that. And so, um, you know, it just was, it, it’s, it, it it’s know, very unfortunate and very sad for those people that are still missing their loved ones.

Well, you said a few of them got arrested, so at least there’s. Hopefully a couple out of commission for the next disaster or, or maybe not. 

Totally. I don’t know. I mean, I think that none of the money has been recovered. I mean, I think, you know, because it was gifts and, and whatnot, so these people made a lot of money.

So I don’t know. I’m not sure that being arrested actually detoured them from doing something in the, in the future, unfortunately. But, uh, you know, it is what it is. I guess. 

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Disaster can bring out the worst in people. I feel like you see them 

can bring out the best and it can bring out the worst. That’s true. We’ll say, you know, we saw some of the best, um, we were truly blessed to be a part of some really amazing communities, and there’s first responders and, you know, I can’t say enough about that.

They, they truly came together. Uh, neighbors came together. So, you know, there, there’s that side of it that is really beautiful. And then there’s, you know, the bad part where people, there’s always evil, you know? So. 

Yeah. And that’s kind of been a, a component of a lot of your, I know it was an issue with Katrina.

I know it was an issue with a lot of your larger disasters in the us. That unfortunately is something that, that creeps in, I guess. 

Yeah, unfortunately. And I mean, they’re rewarded because everything is in a disarray and people just wanna help and. You know, so it’s, it’s very easy to be fraudulent. Um, but it’s really unfortunate when you’re talking about peop handlers, and we talk about this a lot.

You know, you have to be, um, an advocate for your dog and the victims or the people that you’re going to look for and their family members. You can’t be out there if you can’t do something, it’s okay. Be honest. Um, you know that because it, it, we all hear about it, you know, and I just, I just spoke at the, the Working Dog magazine, uh, com conference and one of the things I said was everybody in the room who were search and rescue, you know, they’re responsible for the good and the bad, and so the bad trickles down and we all feel it when people are not doing the right thing, you know?

And we hear about it and, um, you know, it does reflect on everybody.

So. You’ve got, you said three dogs right now. You got your old dog, uh, you got one sounds like in the middle and Yes. And then you got a, a younger dog. Uh, your younger dog, is it uh, still in training or are you deploying with Yeah, she’s still in training. 

She’s not certified. The other two have been certified and all of the things, um, I mean they’re still working towards things ’cause you never quite finish doing whatever.

There’s never anything that you think you’re finished. You’re gonna always find something on a search or in in life. Um, but yeah, so the younger one’s still in, in training and she is, um, you know, she’s not as edgy as the other two, but she’s very levelheaded. So, you know, she’s coming along nicely 

and she’s in training for 

human remains.

Okay. Okay. Yeah, they’re 

all human. Remains detection, so I don’t, I don’t currently have a live find dog. Um, okay, so 

you mentioned the word certification. What certifications do you pursue and what’s required Generally. 

So it depends. Um, FEMA has their own certification. The state usar system has their, uh, their certification, which is, which is, is a replica of fema.

Um, you know, the state of Indiana has a, has several certifications through IDHS. Um, and then there are national ones. So it really depends on what your needs are as a handler, um, and where you’re at, you know, so there’s a lot of, of very good national certifications, um, that people can obtain. It just depends on what they’re, look, you know, what level they’re looking to certify to.

Are the certifications, I’m assuming if you’re working for FEMA or for the state, they’re required, are there any scenarios where it’s not required? 

So I think that is a team decision. Um, so, you know, some of the private teams maybe have their own internal type of credentialing. Um. Uh, you know, others require that they have to have a national certification.

You know, everybody that’s going out should have ICS training, uh, just so that they can collaborate with, you know, an incident command system, um, and a unified command. But, you know, so that should be a no, a no-brainer. Um, that should be on every, you know, doorstep background check should be done on team members because, you know, at the end of the day, we wanna make sure that we’re sending out people that are, you know, not doing things that they shouldn’t be.

Um, but that, you know, does that always happen? Probably not. You know, the teams that I work with, yes, that does happen. They are, you know, aware of what they need to do to make sure their handlers are, are going out and doing the right things. 

So I, I get this question quite a bit, so I’m kind of curious what your response is.

So for people who are thinking about getting into the world of search and rescue, they oftentimes ask, so, you know, what do I need to know? Um, what is, what is your advice? What’s your take on that particular question for those folks? 

First and foremost, I think they need to, um, find a team locally that they can mesh with.

’cause we all know dog people, you know, they have their issues. Um, good, bad, and ugly. Uh, but finding that local team that you can get mentorship from, that hopefully you have a good personality, you know, mesh with it, um, that can lead you. That’s, that’s the best way. Uh, finding mentors that can guide you. Um, and that could change, that can change throughout your career.

Certainly my mentors over the years have changed and my philosophies have changed. And I started out in a very, um, unforgiving, you know, unforgiving situation with, with teams and people not wanting to help and everything was super secret and nobody wanted to help anybody out. Um, it’s evolved and I think, you know, now there’s, you know, trainers on every doorstep.

So whether that’s good or bad, I don’t know, you know, but trying to find people that you can interact with, um, that have the same ideals and integrity that you ha have, you know, I think that’s important. Um, and then people that are willing to help you and not harm you. Um, and that’s, you know, a big deal too.

’cause there are people out there that are not always doing the right thing by the handlers that they’re serving. So, 

yeah. One of the things that I, you know, I often tell folks who are interested in search and rescue is, uh, in order to have a team to be a dog and a handler, um, that handler has to go through a lot more training than just learning how to train and work with a dog.

So, um, what’s your, what’s your thoughts on that? 

Absolutely, and I honestly, the handler also needs to be a partner to their dog, you know, um, they are a part of that equation and it, you know, people are always like, well, I just, I just drive the car, whatever. Well, you, but you still have to be a partner when you’re out.

You have to be able to read nuances. You have to be able to figure out what the dog’s trying to tell you. Um, you also have to communicate with the dog in a way that they understand. And all of those things take time and, you know. Um, a lot of mistakes. You know, I always tell handlers like, if you’re doing it right every time, then you’re probably not doing it right, because there is a whole lot that goes into it where you learn from those mistakes and you learn from things that happen, um, and you learn to do it better.

You know, we’re human and we are the weakest link when it comes to these animals. They are definitely smarter than we are for sure. And, um, we have to figure out ways to communicate with them. And, you know, that’s a, that’s a lot. And then we also have to do the, the human piece of it. Navigation, you know, you, even though everybody has a smartphone, you still should understand map and compass and, you know, understand the areas that you’ll be working in, how to work in those, you know, those stressful situations.

And, um, you know, if you’re making excuses, you probably have training problems that you need to be capturing and, and working with. Certainly I have 

those, uh, you know, a lot. I think one thing a lot of cadaver new folks, new folks to the world of cadaver or dogs and cadaver dog training, I, I think they just aren’t aware of is the fact that, you know, if you’re doing a pretty good job in training and you get called out operationally, you can find yourself knee deep in a crime scene real quick.

Yes. And how you handle that can be, um, crucial. 

It’s a huge deal. And it’s, you know, it, it certainly you have to maintain those crime scenes and you have to do, you know, we are very, very serious about, you know, dogs defecating at odor. Although that’s a normal reaction, we try very hard to. Um, have our students not be doing that and making sure that we’re not contaminating that crime scene and we’re not as handlers, we’re not stepping all over things that we shouldn’t be in creating a, a hazard.

And, you know, I’ve also heard the other, well, it’s, it’s fine. It’s no big deal. They found it. Well, okay. But we, we still have to, you know, have the professionalism to make sure that we’re main, maintaining that very well and learning about that. And, um, again, that goes back to leadership too. Having good leaders on the team that can talk about that and teach strategy, um, you know, there’s a lot to learn.

And, and even, you know, I, I just did a, a team training and asked each handler what their strategy was for a certain area and they gave me a beautiful textbook, you know, um, strategy, but it wasn’t really going to work well for the area that we were in. And so we were able to actually walk through it with them and, and.

And talk about why. Um, and so that was really beneficial. But I think sometimes we don’t always do a good job of teaching handlers those things in a, in a positive way that they understand. So, um, I’m very fortunate. I have a lot of mentors that, you know, have, have taught me to, you put my money where my mouth is and be able to explain why I want someone to do something so that they have a better understanding.

We’re not just, I’m, I’m not just saying it because I’m saying it, you know. Um, and uh, so I’m very fortunate ’cause I’ve had a lot of really great teachers and I still do ’cause I, I choose never to stop learning. So. 

So you had mentioned, 

so 

yeah, go 

ahead. 

Okay. I was just gonna say, circling back to what you said a minute ago about just being able to read the dog and then of course you have to be able to read signs as well and read the environment.

I’m assuming very often these dogs are working fairly independently with you kind of keeping an eye on them. How often I hear the phrase intelligent and disobedience used by in, in different, uh, parts of the industry. Do you use that phrase? And if so, how important is that to give your dog to understand the dog and understand sometimes they’re going to ignore you ’cause they’re doing the right thing.

Mm-hmm. Um, odor obedience. I’m much rather have a dog that has obedience to odor than to me. So if they’re an odor, even if we’re taking a walk, I would much rather them go to odor and me not be able to pull them away from that because they are, they, if they know their their job and they truly love what they’re doing, they’re going to do that.

Um, so to me that’s, um, you know, something that I want other handlers, maybe not, you know, and again, I can’t speak for other people. Um, you know, my dogs work very independently. They’re very fast. Um, and so typically I don’t do a lot of chasing after them, you know, and I’m, I’m at, at, at an age now where I don’t wanna be running after a dog.

I’m going to, you know, walk in calmly and they’ll hopefully still be there barking or sitting or whatever their trained final response is. Um, but again, that’s a lot of training and it’s a lot of, you know, patience and working through that and them understanding that. And I want an independent dog for that reason.

Um, but I also, you know, recognize that I have to use the tools to, to maintain the dogs that I have and be able to kind of keep an eye on them, whether it’s with the GPS collar, I do use a bell, which some people hate in wilderness, but I had to put that on because I have very fast dogs that I wanna be able to hear where they’re at.

Um, in the disaster realm, they don’t wear anything, you know, so their, their bark is gonna have to tell me that they’re at whatever their odor is, whether it’s live or, or dead. So. 

Could you explain that? Why aren’t they wearing a GPS collar when it’s a disaster? 

So, with disasters, we have so much rebar and, you know, even, and even in wilderness, like there can be, um, just so many hazards that can ca get, you know, grab them.

So if they’re wearing a collar and they’re wearing all those things, then they’re going, you know, they have the, um, the potential to get impaled or caught up on things. And so we just don’t want that. So that’s why we, we run them naked for the most part. Um, you know, and again, in wilderness, sometimes I will, if it’s very, very, um, thick brush, I may not put anything on them.

Um, in Western Carolina, we had mud up to their ne their neck, and we had, you know, brambles that were all over the place, just very thick. Um, so having them in collars and vests would’ve been very hazardous. And the same on the water. I did have a vest on when we were in some of the water. Um, especially the, the fast water so that I just, so I could have control of not having a dog fall in the, in the river.

And I really didn’t want her in the river with the contaminants that were in, in some of the areas we were searching. So, 

so if you are in the wilderness and you let your dog go No, no. Uh, GPS collar, so you don’t know exactly where they are, what’s, what keeps them in any reasonable, within any reasonable distance of you?

What keeps them from being a mile away? 

No. So my dogs actually will come and check in. Um, so if I’m not coming as fast as they, as they would like and they’ve moved on, they will come in and they will check. But we’ve done a lot of work on that where, um, through body movement and things like that, that, that I can move them with a way that I want them to go.

If, if they’re just searching and they’re not actively an odor, um. If they’re an odor, they’re gonna go to odor and they’re gonna alert from me. They’re gonna bark and let me know that that’s what they’re doing. Um, so, but in wilderness, a lot of times they are wearing GPS. Uh, it just kind of depends on the environment, and I have to look at that every time.

So it’s not, it’s not a, an always or never. Um, it’s kind of what are, what are we doing in the search and then, you know, adapting to that in the appropriate way for, for both me and them. 

Jason, you were starting to say something earlier then I, I got sidetracked a different direction. 

Yeah, I, I was just curious, uh, with cadaver dogs and cadaver training, I know there’s a lot of, or has been historically a lot of debate about, uh, what response the dog is taught and why.

Uh, kinda curious what your thoughts are on that. 

So organically, I love a dog and a lot. So all, and I will preface this though. My two older dogs both have bark alerts. They both started as a sit mostly because that’s what they gave me. They offered that behavior. My, my youngest is a sit right now. I may transfer that to a bark.

Um, I’m still not sure who she’s gonna be when she grows up. I mean, she’s doing, she will definitely do wilderness, but I don’t know that she’ll do disaster. Um, at this point. She’s just, she’s very young and that’s, you know, not necessarily a, a, you know, an important factor. So she again, offered me a sit organically.

So that is what I’m using as her trained final response. Um, and then if I transition a bark, I can, I can add that in. And I’ve done that with both of my older dogs. Um. But again, that is for in the disaster realm, that’s what we want because the dogs are, you know, we may be sending them in to a structure that we can’t go into and we wanna hear their barking.

Um, you know, and so that’s, that’s part of why we do that. Um, on the other hand, barking can be very, um, especially in the live find world, like that can be a huge issue for an autistic child or an elderly person, or, you know, someone with disabilities. So again, you know, knowing what you’re going out on and figuring out what the best alert is for what you are doing, um, is important.

And, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of controversy right now about having a trained final response. And a lot of people that believe they can just look at body language and, and that’s great. Um, but when you’re talking about debris piles, wilderness, things like that, I find that a lot of handlers do not read their dogs well for the subtleties.

Um, especially if they’re starting out. So to me, I believe that a trained final response is important, um, because it gives you something valid to see the dog doing. Um, but again, I, who am I? You know, I’m, that’s just my personal opinion about it. And having seen some of the alerts that people are utilizing, um, that they don’t always do well, noticing those subtleties, I just, I think it’s important to have something that you can grasp a hold of in, in my, in my world.

Yeah. So, 

yeah, I’m in complete agreement. I think. I think that dog needs a very clear, reliable, consistent, discernible alert Yes. Or indication to target. No, I’m a hundred percent with you. Yeah. Yeah, 

yeah. So what are people suggesting? B. As an alternative, even if you don’t agree with it. I’m just curious, what are some of the alternatives?

Yeah, 

the stair is one that people love, you know, and that goes back to a lot of narcotics and, um, explosive handlers use that and it’s very good for that type of thing. Um, but I find that gets very muddied when you’re talking about working in a, you know, in the brush and or on the rubble pile. You’re gonna miss those, those stairs.

Um, especially when you have to fight other things, um, whether it be environment or, you know, and then in a disaster, most of the time that the odor is not on top, you know, so even if it’s a live person, those people have already been pulled out. Um, they’re gonna be pretty deep, and so the dogs have to deal with diffuse scent and things like that.

They might be out of sight so you can’t see them. Um, so having something discernible is important. Um, whether, and, and, you know, again, a sit can be. Difficult when you’re not right there with them. You know, the GPS collars can give you that in the wilderness realm. ’cause you can see that they’ve stopped.

Doesn’t mean they didn’t stop and pee or sniff something else or whatever. But you can at least see on the GPS that they’ve, they’ve stopped moving. Um, you know, and of course you wanna teach that dog to have that longevity of sitting there until the person gets there. But, um, you know, and I, and again, I think it, it really boils down to what works for you as a handler and in your environment.

But I’ve just seen a whole lot of non-specific trained final, final responses that aren’t consistent. You know, or, or there’s the, they can sit down, stare, do a dance, you know, and you’re like, okay, pick one. You gotta pick something to be consistent for the dog and for you. Um, you know, and then there are issues with, with those, you know, sits and downs depending on what you’re dealing with.

Well, the dog down on a hill. Will they down, you know, or will they sit, you know, so working through that and again, having to do the agility piece of it, so, you know, and they’re all relevant and they all, you know, can be, they can work. Um, it’s just a matter of the handler being able to truly read it and understand it.

I’m just picturing a dog sitting as an alert. And so if they’re out of sight, obviously you’re not gonna know unless you have the GPS on them. Does that put you in a scenario where you can just never call the dog back to you? You always have to go find them to see where they are or if they were sitting, have they been trained to, to ignore the recall at that point?

So you Yeah, I mean, you can call ’em back and there are recall refine alerts that work in wilderness where they come and find their handler and then they take ’em back. Um, or they’ll come and hit the, the. The bell or the ball or whatever and, and take them back. And, you know, all of that works, um, if it’s done well.

But it has to be consistent and it has to be something that you are doing ev all the time so that the dog isn’t ever, that the, the, you know, the water’s not muddied of what their alert is supposed to be. And you know, the way to do that is in training. Make sure every time you’re asking for whatever it is, um, and when you’re talking about out of sight, that requires other people to help you.

’cause you wanna be able to reward the dog for staying there, you know, out of sight. And you might have to take baby steps and chain it a little bit, which may require you having other people that have, you know, good timing and things like that. So there’s a lot that goes into that. And then, you know, determining why you’re doing that TFR, because sometimes it’s just because that’s all, that’s what we’ve always done, you know?

So is that necessarily good or bad? You know, it every. Every team’s gonna have their own opinion of that. 

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back to the episode.

So, so one thing I think is important for, you know, a lot of people who probably listening not in search and rescue, if you could kind of talk about, you know, how. How you get rich and famous doing surf 

race? Um, I don’t know. You tell me because, uh, so far I think I’m just money out, haven’t got there yet.

Um, you know, and I mean, I have friends that are, are doing really well and they do really cool videos and they do a lot of cool stuff. Um, it’s, it’s just not my jam. You know, I, and I tend to be, I came from, you know, very modest start where everybody did it because they wanted to do it and it, you know, they did it in a voluntary capacity.

And even though, like I was on the fire department and many of them were, um, or when many were in, you know, the federal system, we weren’t getting paid at that point. We were doing it because we truly wanted to make a difference. And I think when money started happening is when some of the muddy water started happening with professionalism and, you know, actually doing it for the right reasons.

Because, you know, people are making. A little bit of money doing it. Um, so I am of the philosophy and my husband is as well, we do a lot of trying to give back to handlers and we try to keep things reasonable. You know, we may, if we charge for a seminar, it’s usually because we have a, an overhead. Um, typically we will do a lot of things for travel, um, because we do believe in bringing up the next generation.

Um, that’s one of our goals, you know, because we want to make sure that we are teaching the next generation about integrity and about the things that we wanna put out there, whether they’re good, bad, or indifferent. I mean, who are we? But, um, I think we lose that. We lose sight of that next generation and trying to mentor them appropriately and bring them forth and, um, and also learn from them.

You know, like I have a lot of younger handlers that I learn from every day. And, um, we have really good candid conversations about. What we should and shouldn’t be doing. And, um, you know, so I’m, I’m very proud of all of those people because they are truly trying to learn. Um, and they’re, and they’re far brighter than I ever was.

So, but no, I’m not making any money guys. I have a passion for it. And that’s the, you know, that’s the best gift. So, 

yeah, I get, I get folks coming through our program and they’re like, I just wanna do search and rescue. I wanna be a professional trainer and do search and rescue. And I’m just starting out.

And I typically tell ’em, well, I hope you have an affinity for ramen noodles because mm-hmm. Um. You’re gonna be eating those for a long time. 

Absolutely. Well, and not only that, depending on what kind of search and rescue you are in, you might be eating those on the scene. And, you know, no toilets, no wa, you know, there’s a whole lot of that stuff that goes into it.

So if they, if they’re not good at roughing it and peeing in the woods, it’s probably not the best place for them to be. 

So I got, I got a question. This may be a little bigger one, um, for you. Um, and I think, but I think it’s an important question and that is, you know, as you know, as you mentioned, you know, no public facilities, um, if you’re drinking water, it’s because you carried it.

You’re gonna be out in the cold, you’re gonna be out in the heat, you’re gonna be out in the bugs, you’re gonna be sleeping in the car, you’re gonna have a dog sleeping in the back. Um, and this could go on for hours and days. It is tough, tough, tough. I’m not trying to paint agram picture here. Um, but you know, why should people do it?

Why should people say, Hey, um. I wanna get involved in this. 

So if you have a passion for dogs, and you have a passion to learn, and you would want the best trained assets out there looking for your loved one, that’s why, you know, so if you have the tenacity to do it, and you’re gonna be thick skinned and you’re gonna be willing to fail a lot and let a dog humble you, then you know that’s, that’s gonna happen.

And at the end of the day, those people rely on quality professional handlers to go out and find their loved ones. Um, you know, I’m not an advocate for throwing all the different cases that people, especially with, with human remains detection. You know, I don’t think there’s a need to, to put that this team or that team found this individual.

I think sometimes that can be very, um, disrespectful to the, the, those left behind. Um, and also, you know, when you’re out on a, a search to at that point is not to put your GoFundMe or your, you know. You know, money making things out there, that’s, you know, y’all have ways to do that and maybe not at, at someone’s worst moment because that’s, you know, they’re gonna wanna give, and, and that’s not the, the best choice in my opinion.

Again, who am I? Um, but at the end of the day, if you really have a passion for it and you’re gonna put the work in and you’re gonna be willing to, you know, walk the walk and talk the talk, then by all means, get in there and do it. 

Awesome. 

So getting back to the actual training, I just have a question.

When I was preparing for this episode, I read something, I think it was at a Virginia Tech or somewhere, somewhere in Virginia, and it was talking about search and rescue specifically and how dogs, if they work too long, that frustration will set them back. And I, I think it was implying that. This would truly set them back, right?

Not for the day, but actually set them back on their desire to work. How, first of all, I mean, what, what are your thoughts on that? And then how do you, how do you prevent a dog from getting frustrated? If you’re out there working all day, what are some strategies you employ to to prevent that? 

Well, so first and foremost, you need the right dog.

Again, it goes back to that picking that dog that can work through those frustrations and through all of that, and then also bringing that frustration piece into your training, letting them fail. You know, we all have that philosophy of wanting them to always end on a positive, but at the end of the day, they can fail and they’ll still be able to come outta the car and do the thing if they, if they’ve been trained appropriately, if they love what they’re doing, and it’s in a, you know, positive light and all those things.

Um, and believe me, I’m not all positive. I have, I. I have dogs that make it impossible to do the, you know, they have to have consequences sometimes for what their behavior is. And, um, you know, so at the end of the day, I think we, we just have to put that in training. We have to make sure we’re doing long searches, we’re doing blank searches, we’re doing, you know, those things.

And then also being able to read your dog. Um, my dog Joey is young. When we went to Western Carolina, he was young. Uh, he was not utilized in the boat capacity because he is not ready for that. But he did do a lot of shoreline searches and things like that. And he did do a lot of long searches where he did, he performed very well.

Um, but at, after about a 45 minute search, he start, he started bringing me objects. So he brought me like a, a, um, a shoe, you know, a crock and wanted to play. Um. And so I had to, at that point, I’m like, all right, and we were, and we were done. You know, we were heading out. But at the, at the same time, it was me recognizing that he had, at that point, he was like, okay, I am, I need, I need something, you know, for what we’ve been doing.

And, um, so he and very nicely gave me the shoe, which typically can be challenge with him, and brought me some goggles, you know, like, Hey, I wanna play now. And so again, as a handler, I had to recognize that, hey, he needs, he needs a break, he needs to have some fun. Um, and we need to make sure that he’s getting that.

Um, and so every dog’s different, you know, and what their needs are when it comes to that. So recognizing that, and, and if you really push them in training, you can have a better idea of what things are gonna, you know, create those, those types of things. Um, you know, at the end of the day, he’s very toy driven, so he often will exhibit that behavior.

He was. Doing a media bite and searched beautifully. And then he found a basketball and that was all over. He was just like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. We’re gonna play with this. Um, you know, and again, the dogs are a reflection of you, so, you know, it is what it is. And, um, you know, you just have to laugh and, and be a little humbled by what they give you in behavior and, and recognize at that point he’s not doing it to be disobedient.

He’s doing it ’cause he is at a point in his young head that he just needed to play, you know, so we have lots of craft. You mentioned 

the phrase, you mentioned the phrase, uh, blanks a couple times now. Yeah. Could you walk us through what exactly that means and how you’re, how you’re using that in your training?

Absolutely. So basically, you know, there’s nothing out there. You have not, we’ve not placed anything out there. It’s not in an area that’s contaminated. Um, and so we will do a search of that area. Um, I reward my dogs at the end. I don’t do a huge reward, but I always tell them that we’re all done when we’re done with a search, whether we’re getting off a boat, whether we’re leaving a, you know, an area or whatever, building, whatever.

Um, but I will put that into all of those disciplines. So if I’m searching buildings, I’ll do a building where there’s nothing there, um, or we’ll do, you know, several acres or we’ll do water, you know, boat sw, boat drives where there’s nothing in the, in the water. Um, also that they can get used to that so that they are not getting the gratification of a find every single time.

Um, because as humans we are very methodical about what we do and we don’t even recognize sometimes that we’re doing it. So it might be every time the dog is getting OD at 20 minutes. You know, um, and so then they, that’s, that’s that. They’re expecting it. So then they start throwing weird behaviors where they’re, you know, whether they’re sitting or barking or they’re pretending to do nose work or trying to get your attention.

And, you know, all of those things can be a factor if you’re not adding in those blank searches where there’s, there’s no odor. Um, and, and really, truly, in my opinion, um, we should be doing more of those than actual odor searches so that we, you know, the dogs just organically can work and they’re not gonna, they’re not gonna after 20 minutes be like, okay, we’re done.

You know, they’re gonna continue to work through that and, and work those environments. So, 

so that was gonna be my next question is how many blank searches are you doing? So those are in your training outweighing the mm-hmm. The real 

search. 

Mm-hmm. 

Absolutely. Once I imprint the dog, I mean, ’cause all of that is, you know, relative of making sure that they.

Understand what they’re looking for, what odor they’re looking for, and, and, and changing that odor profile. Um, then I’m trying to do a lot of blanks so that they truly are searching for whatever, and, you know, and, and not always finding it. Uh, and, and for long periods of time and in environment. So right now, um, that’s actually on my list to do is because we did a, we’ve done quite a few, you know, odor trainings with other people.

And so my dogs have then been included in that and now they need to do some blanks, um, just so that they’re not always getting instant gratification of theodor.

So are these dogs cross-trained between cadaver and live search and rescue 

or No, I do not train my dogs. As for cross-training, there are people that do that. Uh, the problem with that. Is that sometimes we do one discipline more than we do another. Um, and so also when you talk about looking for a live person versus looking for a dead person, um, in my opinion, the foundation in, in a cross-trained dog should be the live person.

And then that should be maintained above all else because we’re looking for someone who is alive. I also believe that they should have a different command and a different alert and all of those things, and it has to be very controlled and managed. Um, but there are people that don’t necessarily do that.

And that’s, you know, again, this is just my personal opinion, having seen some of those things that some of the, the muddy water that happens is when you have people out in your search area and you have a dog that is cross-trained for live people, then handlers get real concerned ’cause they think that they, the dog is gonna alert on all these people.

And again, that’s a training issue. Most of the things that happen in Search and Rescue that people are worried about is a training issue that they could work on. Um, but again, you’re gonna pick one or the other. Human remains is easy. I can go plant that stuff myself all, all day long. I don’t need a person, a, a live person to help me with the training of the dog.

Whereas with live bind, you do, so you gotta find people that can go out and you gotta change it up. You gotta have different, you know, sexes, ages, ethnicities, when you have a live, you know, people that are alive just so the dog gets all of those in their repertoire. 

Okay. This might be a really stupid question, I’m gonna preface it with that.

Do your dogs ever find a live person? And if so, would they, would they care? Would they pay any attention or would they go right past because they’ve been trained to find cadavers? 

So we do put live people, um, in when we’re doing training. Um, but, and we also have people walking in our sectors. We have flankers, we have, you know, we’ve had people in full protection digging in areas.

Um, and so for the most part, they’re not gonna necessarily, uh, tell me that there is a live person there. Um, you know, they might go over and because it’s a novelty at that moment or in a, in a weird, like they’re in a weird pla place, but they’re not typically going to say, yeah, there’s, you know, this person here.

Um, that being said, a lot of live find dogs are not gonna go to the human remains either. Um. You know, depending on it, some dogs don’t like human remains, you know, so if you have a dog that has an adversity to it, um, that does live find or area search, you know, they’re gonna, a lot of times they’re gonna avoid that area.

Um, so, uh, you know, it’s, it, it just depends on the dog, but we do a lot of that where there’s live and, um, dead people. I, I did a area search class where I did blanks for my dogs, where, but I ran them through the areas that the live person was, um, you know, just to see what their behavior would be and, and to expose them to that.

But, you know, and, and I think if you’re doing it really well, then there are dogs out there and handlers out there that, that can manage it. I just prefer not to have, you know, any, any difficulty reading what they’re looking for, whether it’s live or dead. 

Yeah, I’m just trying to understand the process of how you would organize a search.

So if you have a disaster and you’re wor, of course the priority is on people that are still alive. Absolutely. So is that area being searched multiple times before cadaver dogs are ever brought in? Yes, typically. 

Uh, in, in most cases. Yeah. Uh, that, that’s, unless we know like that, I mean, and I will say 99% of the time, if, if it’s a disaster like that, they are bringing in live fine dogs first.

Um, and they might do that for the first 24, 48 hours, um, and then start implementing it in the cadaver dogs. It really depends on what the incident is. Um, so, you know, yeah, we want to make sure that we are accounting for any of those people that are alive before we ever bring in the dogs for recovery. Um, so that’s, you know, they’re a huge benefit.

Um, to have those assets.

So a period of time is going by a couple days, or three or four days of other dogs searching, and then yours are brought in at the tail end of all of that. 

If they, if they believe that there’s live people, we’re gonna get those dogs in there because we can bring in the, uh, the recovery assets later. Um, so that, you know, it’s very important to get those dogs in there first so that we can make sure that we are, you know, identifying where life people might be.

That makes sense. Jason, you wanna ask an intelligent question? I’m, I’m still asking. I’m stuck in the basics here. 

I got, I got one for you. I get this question a lot, so, you know, um, kinda get your, your thoughts for people who might be wondering this. ’cause I do get this one a lot because I think it’s just something that’s been said over the years and uh, has become sort of a common.

Uh, understanding, and that is particularly with cadaver dogs, when they go out and they find decomposition, that they somehow get depressed, mentally depressed. And you know, if that happens too often that they’ll just simply quit working and quit looking for people. 

No, I think that’s, you know, I mean certainly I think yes, they are, dogs are sensitive and depending on the dog that you’re working, that can be an issue.

But if you’ve done all the proper training and imprinting and all of that, typically they’re gonna bounce back pretty quickly. Um, we do see dogs that have, don’t get a lot of exposure to full bodies. You know, they can have a funky reaction depending on what that is, whether it’s a avoidance, because now it has, this has a face and it’s not just an odor that they’re working towards.

Um, or a box that they’re imprinting on. It’s, you know, an actual full body, things like that. Um, and then as decomp happens, you know, you get fly and insect activity and so that’s get a little creepy. And then, you know, if there’s wind blowing by that, by that body, then that can create a, you know, a, a, you know, a sensitivity to some dogs.

And so, again, training’s huge. It’s, it is super important that if that’s what you’re going out on, you really need to get to those seminars and things like that, that you can actually expose those dogs to in training so you can do it appropriately and you’re not just, you know, you know, creating a, a training issue that way.

Um, and for the most part, you know, even dogs that are sensitive to that, um, they, it with the repetition and time and grade, they tend to be able to, to be, you know, very solid with that. Um, and even if they’re, you know, a little nervous, we can, we can work ’em through that. With some repetitions and some positive stuff.

Yeah. My dogs were always eager to find decomposition because for them it’s signaled play and fun things happen. So yes, yes. 

Yeah. So if you’re doing all, all the things and you’ve got the right dog and you’ve done, you’ve put the time in, you know, they’re gonna, for the most part, they’re gonna bounce back pretty well and, and wanna do it again, you know?

Um, and even if they’re a little concerned in the beginning, a lot of times you can work ’em through that with just, you know, positive reps and things like that.

So, Athena, when we spoke you and I a couple weeks ago, you mentioned your husband is involved with drones and, and if there’s anything you can’t talk about, you know, feel free to say that you can’t, but what is your idea of the what? Like what is the future gonna hold here? How are drones gonna be working together with dogs?

Because I feel like there’s so many directions this could go. Any thoughts there, any info you can give us? 

Yeah, sure. Uh, so we have actually been working with the National Institute of Standards and Technology for, um, about 15 years now. Uh, our first shepherd actually was involved in some testing with robotics and, um, really he got to break really expensive toys when in the cusp of trying to find live people.

Um, and so it’s really evolved some of the, the robots and the drones and things like that. And I don’t think that any search you’re on is not gonna have a drone at this point in time. And, you know, because they’re just so prevalent. Um, he does the testing criteria with first responders all over the, actually the world at this point.

He goes to Brazil in a couple weeks to do this. Um, and it, you know, it’s not always with dogs, but certainly I think that is a. A concern sometimes with handlers that haven’t been around drones with their dogs. And so, you know, we try to implement that, um, because at the end of the day, that’s gonna be, that’s just gonna be a part of a search scene.

Um, you know, and there’s a lot of really cool research that’s being done on Graves and infrared and all of the things. So it really has come a long way. Um, I think unfortunately in the US we don’t have fantastic manufacturers and so we do rely on some foreign drones, and that’s a big political mess. Um, but a lot of what he does is testing those, those different platforms and then, um, working with the operators to make them more proficient.

Um, and, but from all walks of, of public safety, so, um. We don’t, we probably don’t do as much stuff with drones just because he’s so involved in that on a, on the side. But we have done a lot of testing with the robots and um, certainly my older dog has had a lot of opportunity to be around some of the ground robots and things like that in the drone systems.

But, um, for me, I, I wanna use drones to be able to put odor out and not have a human platform walking through the woods. Um, so, you know, the, there’s, there’s a lot of really cool technology out there, and I think it’s, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be there and it’s gonna evolve and, you know, it’s already evolved quite nicely.

Um, so, you know, if you can get drones out there with your, your dogs do it. 

You mentioned robots. Can you tell us a little bit about those? The drone seems kind of self-explanatory, but. Tell us about these robots. Yeah, so he 

does. So they, they do a RC and land robots. So if you see spot the dog, um, that would be considered a ground robot.

Um, and he’s come a long way, you know, he was, when he first started, he didn’t move as well as he does, and they’ve got some new platforms that are coming out. Um, but they are really, truly, you know, people get concerned that it’s gonna take over or whatever, and, you know, but at the end of the day, you’re never gonna get the robot to move as fast and, you know, as, as well as the, the canine does.

I, but I think we can use, um, robotics and drones and all of that to our advantage to help make the search better. Um, and certainly like FDNY is using, they have their own robotics program and they’re really using it a lot for being able to put these, these, um, robots and things like that into structures that they don’t wanna necessarily expose a human to.

Um, so for safety reasons and. And some of that. Um, so the research is cool. You know, they’re, they’re doing a lot of really amazing things and, um, it’s always fun to expose the dogs to the, that stuff. You know, my, my, my one boy is not happy with, with spot. He does not like him at all. He thinks he’s a, he’s definitely a problematic dog, so 

I can imagine a little metal dog walking around.

Yeah, he is not, he’s not a fan. 

Well, a lot of dogs don’t even like a silhouette of another dog, just like, you know, on a, like, dog bakery window 

and move his head and do all kinds of crazy stuff. So, yeah, he’s not a, he’s not a huge fan, but I, I, you know, I think again, we have to embrace technology and I think that it can be utilized in a way that will help us in, in all facets of search and rescue, you know, and it’s not the end all be all, but it is certainly part of the equation and a good tool.

Have you seen AI entering into the field at all? I have not, but I don’t know. You know what, as far as what Tom has seen with some of the things that he’s been involved in, um, I think it’ll happen. We went to Dubai last year to the world, um, police conference and certainly in, in that country they’re using AI very, I mean, every day.

Um, and so certainly that stuff’s gonna transition over, I think, and it’s gonna be, you know, a part of what we’re, we’re gonna have to deal with 

and give Matt 15 minutes, he’ll figure out how you need to use it.

I mean, actually I did just call one of the deputies that I’m friends with ’cause I was looking for a policy and he is like, oh, get on AI and ask for the policy and it’ll develop one for you. He is like, we don’t have one, but you can, you can do this. And I was like, okay. So. It’s being utilized for sure.

And I think in, hopefully in a positive way. Yeah. And it, you know, technology is what it is. You get a, I mean, I hate it, but you know, you gotta embrace it. ’cause I do think there’s some value in it. 

I’ve, they’ve been using AI and I forget what this exact test is called, but they’ve had great results for women with breast cancer.

When they, they take the first, you know, the first basically cut, for lack of a better word, the doctor used to analyze it by hand or by, you know, like looking through a, you know, microscope themself and they would send it off. And they found that if you just put that same sample into ai, it’s been trained on, you know, more samples than a doctor would see in their entire career.

Right. Way more than that. So it’s able to give a much better input of is there still cancer here or not, basically are there clean margins? Sure. And now the doctor’s able to then sew the person up and take out way less tissue and have a lower, um. What, what have you, like coming back for second surgery.

They need way less, you know, callback callbacks for second surgery. And I just imagine for something like this, for search and rescue, if you have GPS on the dogs and you have drones overhead and you’re analyzing enough searches, at some point in time it’s gonna make a connection. A person wouldn’t right.

That. Yeah, for sure. The dogs slow down 10% and when they slow down 10% and they make, you know, and they do a loop or whatever, right? It’s gonna make some connection and say, when that happens, there’s a decent chance that there was a cadaver there, who knows what. So I’m just intrigued to see what the future will bring if we’re tracking all the data properly.

Absolutely. So you’re, you’re, you’re saying you can do more with the AI than just make means 

That’s the main use, obviously, but there’s some secondary ones that might be useful. I think we’re definitely gonna 

see that happening. I mean, there’s already, you know, there’s already studies being done with infrared and, and some of that, um.

For human remain in, in that regard. And, um, you know, there are some agencies that are, are tying the dogs with the, the drones. And actually even that’s come a long way because initially we did that. Um, and the dog, the drone could not keep up with the Malis. Um, but it’s just gotten better, you know. So again, every, you know, every year there’s something new and I think, um, there’s gonna be a lot of that.

And I think for sure that’s gonna be valid because at the end of the day, what are we looking, we’re looking for someone. Um, so let’s use all those tools, uh, to make that a better proficient search. 

Absolutely. And I, I could see the drone helping the handler a lot. Mm-hmm. You know, from the outside looking, and I’m certainly not an expert on this, but being able to read the dog better than a person Oh yeah.

The average, you know, handler ever could. Yeah. 

And I mean, and it allows you too, to get an overlook, an overwatch of the area that you might be searching and, and see some things that maybe you aren’t gonna see on a topographical map. Um, so, you know, there’s a lot of, a lot of valid. Data that we can get by utilizing those drones.

I know in Europe they’re, you know, starting to have the drone actually drive the dog to, you know, to look for whatever it is. I can’t remember if it was explosives or what, but, um, so they’re using the drone versus having the human up there and, um, you know, so I think it, there’s some cool things being done, um, but like all things, it takes time and proficiency and, and all of that.

So 

the drone driving the dog, it’s a, the future is here. Yep, yep, for sure. Her. So Jason, what have we not covered? We need to make sure we have Athena plug her upcoming, upcoming, uh, speech here and a 

Absolutely. In a few weeks. Yeah. So that’s, that’s coming up short, uh, very soon. Real quick. We are, we are super excited to have you at our conference.

Um, I had a chance to recently hear you speak a bit at, at, at a conference. Uh, and, um, definitely I think it’s something our, our, our audience is gonna be, um, very interested in. Um, can’t give away too many details ’cause we’ve, we’ve done a pretty good job so far, Matt, of not getting in trouble with Marlene over this.

So, um, I think your title is something like, uh, putting Fun Back in Search and Rescue Fundamentals or something similar to that. Fundamentals 

of the Search and Rescue. Yeah. Yep. So, yeah, hopefully, you know, we’re gonna talk about all, all the, all the things, all the disciplines and, you know, picking the right dog and how the human impacts that.

And hopefully won’t upset two people too much with, uh, what we say. But, um, you know, I’m, I’m excited to be, be a part of that. I’ve, I’ve been a member of ICP for a long time and, um. It’s not necessarily active as much of late, but it’s, you know, I think there’s a lot of interest and I know there’s gonna be several handlers there that will also, you know, be a, you know, getting into that.

So hopefully, you know, the, the, the dog trainers and handlers can get a, just a better perspective. Um, you know, I’m not the end all be all, but I, I’m bringing a little bit of experience into it and certainly would love to see the next generation of handlers, you know, learning how to be better trainers and how to adapt that into their handling skills.

Cool. So if you wanna make people mad, I got the winning ticket right here, disparage golden retrievers for a bit. And I’m telling you that’s gonna do it because it’s been, this has been a super pro. Golden show. Um, every time me and Matt talk to somebody, they’re plugging golden retrievers. So yeah, you badmouth them one time and you Yeah, I’ve had a really nasty 

golden retriever that, you know, like, everyone’s like, oh, they’re lovely.

And I’m like, yeah, sometimes they are. And sometimes they can be just like any other dog that has aggressive issues and things like that. But, um, you know, they’re a good dog for search and rescue, you know, again, genetics matter and the training matters and, and their foundation is all, you know, a huge part of it.

And I’m not saying that the, you know, the misfit isn’t suitable because certainly I’ve had several misfits and, you know, I do a lot of rescue, but, uh, you gotta make sure that they, they wanna do the, do the job that you’re asking them to do. ’cause 

sounds like somebody just called. Golden retriever’s.

Misfit. So that’s what I was hearing. Shot shots fired right there. 

I know some pretty misfit goldens that I adore. But yeah, 

the golden retriever lobby is gonna come after you, after not 

gonna be your couch potato. Your couch potato will not be the dog that you wanna use for utilize for search and rescue.

Yeah, for sure. See, when I pick on dog breeds, I just pick on ones that nobody owns. Like you can pick on chows all day long and pretty rare to find someone who owns one of those.

Yeah, people get really personal. Yes. Their 

breeds. Yes, they do. For sure. For sure, for sure. 

So yeah, we’re super excited to have you at conference. Uh, it’s, we’re, we’re counting days now, so it’s, it’s coming up real soon. So, uh, like I said, I know our folks are gonna be super excited to, to meet you there and, and hear what you have to say about search and rescue.

Awesome. Looking forward to it. Me too. Well, thanks for coming on Athena. Appreciate it.